Curse

Guinea Fig · Mar 28, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

No. You won't win the tourney if the other team specs against you. But, in current casual GvG environment.. both these builds are overwhelming a lot of teams.

Just talking about 7v7 or 8v8 right now.

With blood spike the initial spike can be deadly but its usually easily interrupted. Unless you have DP the shadow strike spike can usually get infused. The problem lies in that hideous 7x60~ vamp gaze afterspike. Not only do you have to infuse or RoF the first spike... you have to catch that 1 second follow up. A lot of teams.. especially the 2 boon prot teams never pass this test. They run outta energy or just mess up. Then once the DP starts building it gets REALLY hairy.

Then there is the Rifts style fast ele spike. Orb, enervating, strike from 5 me/e all hitting within a little over a second from when the first orb lands. 15 hits + 3 slightly slower more powerful attacks from the E/Mo. Even if each attack only did 50 damage that would still be around 900~ damage within 1.5~ seconds. Since most hits actually do more than 50 damage on soft targets... Most boon prots just can't stop that kinda damage. Prot spirit helps but I mean if each Me/E hit with all his attacks... the target could still potentially die. A RoF from each of the boon prots won't do crap. Heck, even if you had a healer I think you need an infuse and a heal follow up if they get off a full chain spike.

Just some observations why these builds seem to be working. I mean these builds can be beaten with the right tactics but there is very little margin of error for your monks/interrupters. Meanwhile, a few of their spikers can be off or disrupted and still get a successful kill. These builds aren't the old style spike that almost always fail when the initial spike doesn't hit.

wheel · Mar 28, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Another reason that Rift's air spike is usually very effective is that against teams with Warrior or Ranger DPS (read: nearly every other team), you've got a lot of copies of Blinding Flash and Enervating Charge so that their damage characters don't have a very strong ability to do damage.

icemonkey · Mar 28, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I think the blood spike is a lot weaker than the fast air spike. The blood spike can be stopped by 2 cry of frustrations on the other team, because of how slow the blood spike is, as in the time between spikes.

expect Rfits to keep pwning face until the playoffs where eventually they will spring the trap of changing their build once people have really specced against it.

wheel · Mar 28, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

I think the blood spike is a lot weaker than the fast air spike. The blood spike can be stopped by 2 cry of frustrations on the other team, because of how slow the blood spike is, as in the time between spikes.

expect Rfits to keep pwning face until the playoffs where eventually they will spring the trap of changing their build once people have really specced against it.

Few teams can afford to bring 2 CoF's. One, certainly, but in most cases, even with 2 Dom mesmers already in your build, not 2. At any rate, Blood Spike is stopped rather whole heartedly by 1-2 Shadow Strikes being interrupted. Another thing that helps is getting a ninja RoF in on the Shadow Strikes so that your boon prot isn't wasting his time throwing Divine Boon/Favor bonuses at the spike for 7 energy once Vamp Gaze starts to hit. Healers and to a lesser extent are really the solution to healing the blood spike. Infuse/RoF the Shadow Strikes, and as soon as they start casting Vamp Gaze, you should be casting Word of Healing or Heal Other. The target shouldn't die, and you've just costed them to waste a lot of energy without being reimbursed from Soul Reaping.

The reason that Blood Spike is so effective is the fact that few teams are proactive in facing spike. If you don't get up in their face and pressure them, slowing down the rate of their spike, eventually your monks will slip, even against blood spike. Blood spike has poor energy management when they're not scoring kills, so keep interrupting their spike and pressuring them. This is, of course, on the Fire Map, where splitting is a less than simple operation.

One of the problems with splitting against Blood Spike on normal maps, however, is the weakness of Boon Prot vs Life Steals. If you've got a Boon Prot/Healer setup, the Boon Prot should probably be on the offensive team, because they're going to be the ones avoiding a direct confrontation anyway, so the ability to heal vs the necro spike takes a seat to the ability to be resilient in taking out NPCs.

As evidenced by The Zaishen [rnub] taking out a lot of top teams through blood spike, even not on the Fire map, it's a very powerful build in the hands of decent players.

icemonkey · Mar 28, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

you can kiss part of that strategy goodbye on april 28th when shadow strike will be replaced by lifebane strike(i beleive) where the >50% health hit is a life steal not a hit. They really need a spell for monks that would eliminate or reduce someone's ability to steal life, to me it seems obvious on a PvP theory standpoint and a lore or a traditional view of what a monk and a necro are.

wheel · Mar 28, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

you can kiss part of that strategy goodbye on april 28th when shadow strike will be replaced by lifebane strike(i beleive) where the >50% health hit is a life steal not a hit.

Lifebane Strike is a clone copy of Shadow Strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

They really need a spell for monks that would eliminate or reduce someone's ability to steal life, to me it seems obvious on a PvP theory standpoint and a lore or a traditional view of what a monk and a necro are.

I agree.

SaintGreg · Mar 28, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Once factions comes out, oppressive gaze may become a better option to shadow strike because a single volley can kill, unlike shadow strike. It's a bit more costly, being 15 energy instead of 10, but the fact that you can actually kill someone means you don't always have to follow up with vampiric gaze. I could actually imagine some teams using this skill in a necro spike with some condition/hex degen as well to mask enfeeble; while still maintaining high defense.

I also agree that there should be a skill that could reduce life stealing.

icemonkey · Mar 28, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lifebane_Strike

check yer facts

oppresive gaze is too condtional

wheel · Mar 28, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lifebane_Strike

check yer facts

Sorry, you're wrong.

=======================================
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Shadow_Strike
Description

Target foe takes 12...41 shadow damage. If that foe's Health is above 50%, you steal 12...41 Health.
=======================================
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lifebane_Strike
Description

Target foe takes 12..41 shadow damage. If that foe's Health is above 50%, you steal 12..41 Health.
=======================================
Reversal of Fortune will prevent the Shadow Damage of the unconditional damage of Shadow Strike. Lifebane Strike is the exact same skill.

icemonkey · Mar 28, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

a huge oversite on my part, still a reversal is a weak defense against a full blood spike

wheel · Mar 28, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

a huge oversite on my part, still a reversal is a weak defense against a full blood spike

No problem. RoF is definitely weak versus blood spike since it only works on half of Shadow Strike's damage, and none of Vamp Gaze's. The point is to get some of your use out of your spells outside of simply spamming your Divine Favor/Boon bonus through RoF/Guardian/Prot Spirit and wasting your energy. Having an off-monk Heal Other is a very strong counter to blood spike.

Infuse to heal the initial Shadow Strike damage, RoF to catch the spike in case the infuser is out of energy or is late on the infuse (both the RoF & Infuse would happen around the same time).

The target will probably be sitting at 1/2 or 3/4 health around that time if infuse got off. If you've got an off monk Heal Other, it can basically guarantee a saved target, every single time.

just call me jimmy · Mar 31, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Hi gang, I don;t know if this is a good suggestion or not. ( I hope it is)
As soon as you realize you are against a Blood Spike or Elle Spike team. All team members should remove any Superior rune they have on. Warr should switch to a health modded sword and shield, and elles to a +60 health staff if possible. This would give a warr about 575 health, and I'am not sure about a caster but I think it would be over 520 heath. This will make your monks life allot easier when they initial shadow strike is spotted.
As i said I hope this helps, i'm new to GvG. But I've been watchin allot of matches to try to become better. Olease slap me if this is a noobish responce..

JR · Mar 31, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by just call me jimmy

Hi gang, I don;t know if this is a good suggestion or not. ( I hope it is)
As soon as you realize you are against a Blood Spike or Elle Spike team. All team members should remove any Superior rune they have on. Warr should switch to a health modded sword and shield, and elles to a +60 health staff if possible. This would give a warr about 575 health, and I'am not sure about a caster but I think it would be over 520 heath. This will make your monks life allot easier when they initial shadow strike is spotted.
As i said I hope this helps, i'm new to GvG. But I've been watchin allot of matches to try to become better. Olease slap me if this is a noobish responce..

Not a bad suggestion at all. This is the reason why I have a pimped out PvE monk for use in GvG: I can swap to a minor rune against spike, or if I have DP. For this purpose I also have +60 health staff on switch.

XxForgexX · Mar 31, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

i can't believe no one's mentioned timed kiting, i.e. running like a little girl in the opposite direction when the necros start their Shadow Strikes. there's no better defense against the follow-up Vampiric Gazes than being out of their range, if only for a few seconds

Greedy Gus · Mar 31, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinea Fig

Then there is the Rifts style fast ele spike. Orb, enervating, strike from 5 me/e all hitting within a little over a second from when the first orb lands. 15 hits + 3 slightly slower more powerful attacks from the E/Mo. Even if each attack only did 50 damage that would still be around 900~ damage within 1.5~ seconds.

Sounds like someone forgot about aftercast.

twicky_kid · Apr 01, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Key to bloodspike is selective targets. Kill the spirit spammer and well of power user and blood spike will crumble.

Their spells are too expensive to maintain more than 2 spikes. After that they need their soul reaping or a body for wop.

Deny the well and spirit spammer and its gg.

SaintGreg · Apr 01, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Killing the spirit spammer isn't exactly easy... 100 AL vs elemental, oath shot whirling against physical...maybe a very well timed diversion and a lotta luck.

I haven't seen many necro spikes with well of power either, in fact most necro spikes I have seen don't carry any corpse cleanup so a death necro can have some fun.

icemonkey · Apr 01, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

good ones will pack one necrotic transversal in halls but not GvG. Other than IWAY and a very limited few pressure builds, no one uses corpses. So in GvG it doesnt matter

zoozoc · Apr 01, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

of course you can always simply split against spike, but that isnt always an option since most spike teams have the fire hall.

dansamy · Apr 01, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

As evidenced by The Zaishen [rnub] taking out a lot of top teams through blood spike, even not on the Fire map, it's a very powerful build in the hands of decent players.

Quote:

of course you can always simply split against spike, but that isnt always an option since most spike teams have the fire hall.

We defended our hall against [Rnub] night before last. We did split. By 20 minutes, they were hugging their bodyguards and trash talking us about how we were wasting their time and they were only going to get a +5 off of us. We took home a +23 against them. Good splitting, terrain usage and strategy won us that match.