Curse

Vindexus · May 30, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

You start by doing it as a team. Don't think "how do I kill a touch ranger" but "how can my team kill a touch ranger?"

Also, don't limit your primary and secondary professions when better options are available.

shadowfell · May 30, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

kitahs burden, phantom pain, parasitic bond, or suffering, and then arcane echo FoC, then FoC again. Dead touch ranger.

frickaline · May 30, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

As an ele, I'd say to stick to water skills that hex them with a movement slow and then follow that with fire degen.

Nivryx · May 30, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Diversion (Domination)
For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill takes an additional 10-47 seconds to recharge.

This is assuming you take up mesmer secondary. From my experience, many touchers are too busy spamming away to notice what it does, i've been able to disable both touch and bite before which was rather amusing because they just said

Quote:

----

(use your imagination)

TwinRaven · May 30, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Many good ideas here, but speaking as a player who plays a touchy, you folks have to keep in mind there are several touchy builds out there and not all of them rely on the touch exclusively for healing. I also would like to point out that using anything NOT labelled a skill makes for a foolish touchy ranger...high expertise (16) and blood magic(12) and extra in Wilderness is my recommendation.

Power management is key to all builds in the category...if you really want to take my build down: deprive me of energy, force my skills to recharge slower (the tactic mentioned above works well) and slow me down and kite me from a distance...if you can do all that, you can kill a touchy 1v1. I would suggest taking mesmer as an elementalist secondary and snatching away energy (keep in mind a good touchy uses NO spells)...and hexing the heck outta the life-stealing skills...then spike, spike, spike from a distance.

If you are playing against anything like my touchy build, you will not want to inflict any conditions (including cripple) at close range as I will simply throw them back to you. On my particular build disease, blindness, bleeding, cripple, poison, deep wound, etc. are effectively cast off...I actually had a necromancer and warrior kill their own monk by repeatedly causing contions on my character while I stole life from their monk and passed my conditions off to their monk from them...then I ate the warrior and his necro friend....then the monk again (smart enough they brought res sig)...If the monk had simply run away after the warrior crippled my character and before I could pass it off, he could have healed from a distance while the warrior and necro ran my energy down and forced me to retreat....strategy can actually help you in this game...REALLY it can!

Kiting is probably your best bet...if you can cripple from a distance and manage to stay away long enough for damage to take its toll, you have a better chance...I tend to find a closer target to throw the cripple on and then get my health back up...but of course, I will always look for the elementalist and drop them...not out of cruelty or spite, mind you, but because it's my job. Look at the stats for ranger armor...as someone stated before, we are best equipped to deal with elemental damage and because elementalists and warriors are the least threat to the build I use, I take them down first...

If you can heal for 800+/- points of health faster than I can steal them...I'll run out of energy before you die...that's 65 to 68 points of health stolen every second for 12-14 seconds...keep in mind what you lose, I gain...until the well runs dry...If I steal it slower, I can steal more as mana regenerates...always fun to finish off someone by wanding them...ugly way to win, but it's happened...both of us out of energy...me with full health, them at 10% or lower...just a matter of time.

Hope I gave you enough insight to deal with me more effectively...eating elementalists should be more challenging...Warriors though...heh heh...OFF TOPIC STARTS HERE----> knock downs aren't as effective as you think...you only slow us down. Unless you can keep a touchy on the ground AND do damage, we get right back up...I seriously, get a huge grin on my face everytime a Warrior stands there blind and bleeding while he would have only 25% chance of hitting if he could see...continuing to *whiff-whiff-whiff his hammer through the air, hitting nothing...slowly realizing he should run in time to turn his back and take 2 steps...gulp, gulp...THUMP! dead warrior...

Munanko Roha · May 31, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

As a warrior I never had problems dealing with touchers, once he's knocked a first time he's on the ground for ever.

I have to say anyway I never found a really good toucher, they all used to take Gaze (a spell, so it gets not helped by expertise) and above all they always tend to attack monks first letting me beat them ('cause they don't realize my first 7 strikes are there for gaining adrenaline and think they can outheal my damage) to death.

As an elementalist I would take deep freeze and keep them far away from my team...so it would be a useless toucher wandering around while me and my team concentrate on the rest of the enemies...and deal with him last.

JR · May 31, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munanko Roha

As an elementalist I would take deep freeze and keep them far away from my team...so it would be a useless toucher wandering around while me and my team concentrate on the rest of the enemies...and deal with him last.

Heh, sadly that doesn't always work.

I was playing a Flashbot with Deep Freeze in TA the other night, against a team of four touch Rangers. Hit them all with it repeatedly, thinking it was game over given that we had such a usefull counter. We lost.

Sadly not everyone in arena knows what kiting is... the monk just stood there with them sapping his life away.

However yes, with a decent team Deep Freeze will save your ass.

jummeth · May 31, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I bet you were in tears, JR.

I think the best way to neuter a touchy is simply a mes to sit on him with diversion and some e-drains. No energy => No touch => No damage OR Heals.

Diversion means that one skill is out for 1 minute, or the touchy is out for a few seconds, more than enough time for a fully charged adreno-spike to dispatch.

TwinRaven · May 31, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

I bet you were in tears, JR.

I think the best way to neuter a touchy is simply a mes to sit on him with diversion and some e-drains. No energy => No touch => No damage OR Heals.

Diversion means that one skill is out for 1 minute, or the touchy is out for a few seconds, more than enough time for a fully charged adreno-spike to dispatch.

You presume too much young Jedi:

The particular build I use looks like this:

Expertise 16 (12+3+1)
Blood Magic 12
Wilderness Survival 4

Skills (ONLY skills):

Vampiric Touch (65-68 stolen health)*
Vampiric Bite (65-68 stolen health)*
Plague Touch (casts of conditions to target)
Throw Dirt (blinds)
Whirling Defense (25% chance being hit, arrows cause 11 dam to opponents)
Escape (move 25% faster and only 25% chance of being hit)
Troll Ungent (+5 regen for 10 seconds)
Res Sig (bring it, fool)

*with +1 blood/20% chance item

Druids armor adds to mana well as does the right wand and off-hand...I start with 49 energy (could start with 64 with the right items..or higher, but the -1 mana recovery sux)

Now, your presumption is correct in terms of energy denial...it hurts, it really does....but there is a fair heal built into my build...+5 regen (TU). Because I don't sacrifice health with Touch of Agony, but only gain health with my vampiric skills (pattern of 65,65,68,65,65 damage/health gain instead of 50,65,50,68,50 damage and _,65,_,68,_ health gain) you would have to deny both of these skills to keep me from doing more than just wand damage...

Let's assume you DO manage to take out both Vampiric skills and I cannot effectively deal damage for a minute...look at the other skills in the bar. I can effectively keep warriors from laying much damage on me for th full minute...Warriors bringing Wild Blow can knock me out of stances, sure...but I use Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt first...High Expertise means I've got 55 seconds where, if you don't knock me out of a stance, I will do four things while waiting for my vamp skills to recharge:

1. I will use my defensive skills to avoid damage (will kite you if you have Wild Blow).

2. I will keep you from spending time on softer targets (monks will have time to eal me...though I'll be at a +5 regen and probably near full health)

3. I will pass all my conditions to you.

4. If energy denial is not being spammed the whole time I'm waiting for my skills to recharge...someone will die.

I can effectively drain 800+/- health in 12-14 seconds...I gain it as health...do you really beleive your adreno-spike can dispatch me? Please keep in mind that after my 55 seconds are up, TD has been recharged for 10 seconds...I use it again, you're blind for 16, Escape is recharged before your blindness ends and and you have 25% chance to hit for 18 seconds...when it's done I have WD waiting for another 21 seconds...the cycle repeats in a way that unless those skills are shut down, I rarley go more than 10 seconds unprotected and in a pinch, I run away to recharge a bit.

Typically, it takes a bit of coordination to drop this touchy build...a knock-down warrior or e-denial mes alone won't cut it.

Keep in mind, the thread was started to help an elementalist deal with the build...they are as easy to take out as warriors. An ele/mes might have a chance to take this build out if already weakened...but my first rush atack at full power is tough to hold up against for eles or wars...

Again...I hope this helps...I know dealing with touchies is tough...I get cursed at all the time.

Divineshadows · May 31, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Heh, sadly that doesn't always work.

I was playing a Flashbot with Deep Freeze in TA the other night, against a team of four touch Rangers. Hit them all with it repeatedly, thinking it was game over given that we had such a usefull counter. We lost.

Sadly not everyone in arena knows what kiting is... the monk just stood there with them sapping his life away.

However yes, with a decent team Deep Freeze will save your ass.

JR in a PUG? Say it ain't so. Would much like the opportunity to play with you on my team in TA sometime.

JR · May 31, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

JR in a PUG? Say it ain't so. Would much like the opportunity to play with you on my team in TA sometime.

Friends list ftw?

Egg Shen · Jun 02, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I've played touch rangers ever since I realized expertise affected all skills, not just ranger skills (many moons ago). They were great fun in random arenas and can be difficult to bring down, which is of course the OP's main issue.

As others have noted, going one on one using your ele probably isn't your best bet. But if touchies are prevalent enough (sounds like they are now w/ the vamp bite, though I honestly don't think they're THAT much better now than they used to be w/ serpent's quickness, but that's another topic) and if you hate them enough and if you must run an ele primary, I'd say go mesmer secodary. Use your larger ele energy pool for diversion spam. Either arcane echo it or use that mantra that speeds up recharge. That hurts touchies. Bad. Follow it up w/ hex degen since they can't just pass that off to a nearby target w/ plague touch. And then spam whatever ele damage skills you have the energy for. Be sure to take a snare of some sort to slow them down. As others have noted, water is a great line for this. Great line period, IMO.

That's what I'd do if I was determined to hunt them w/ elementalists.

MelechRic · Jun 03, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Defeating a touch ranger is easy (I know because I play one on TV). It's a combination of slow + degen. Hex based slows and degen are prefered, but you can use poison/bleeding and cripple IFF you have a team that knows what it's doing. I qualify this with a big IF because any touch ranger worth his leather pants will bring plague touch to get rid of conditions. However, if your team knows how to kite and not stand there getting fingered then you're cool.

Touch rangers are a potent force because 99% of the people in RA/Aspenwood/Jade don't know how to kite. Just run away from the toucher! Warriors, I'm talking to you specifically! You can't beat a toucher.

Here's what I consider a very good description of why Touch Rangers are beatable:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolgo_The_Madd

I've used a touch ranger and they have a lot of good gimmick to them. But that's it. Time & Distance are what makes the Touch ranger a fair build. At least as far as I can see. I have never seen a touch ranger dominate, even in 4 vs 4.

He has to "touch" you!

Please... I know life syphon is there... And I've seen a barbed signet, or even Vampiric Gaze... These skills exist to get people who where foolish enough to stand in front of the Touch ranger and then decide to run away WAY too late.

If they're using Vampirc Gaze - GREAT - they wasted 10 energy on 50 life, with their 3 pips of regen its a total waste on their part... good its 150 damage you don't need to take up close.

Barbed signet (I use it) - again that's not a lot of damage. ---> But seriously so much better for the Touch Ranger.

Life Syphon - The -3 degen is only consiquential if your getting vampired for 75+ x 2 every 2 to 4 seconds. 3 degen isn't anything to cry about - and you've most likely got someway to deal with it... if you don't - then Touch Rangers aren't your only problem.

If your build can't handle a touch ranger. Don't try to solo them. Let your team help you. Don't fight a losing battle. Yes, run away from him...

You need to NOT play the touch rangers game -
Don't stand in front of him and try to melee him solo.
All the touch heals are nice - but they have to touch you...
Don't stand still and let them drain you.

Touch rangers can develop energy problems in the long run.
Their damage isn't pressure damage - they need to have a good reserve to spike you with thier skills.

If you have a healer on your team, just keep moving. Touch ranges can't to any real damage if you've got a competant healer to back you up... Don't stand still either.
Your situation is a little more grim if you've got a Prot Monk backing you up... know your monks happy

Eventually a touch ranger has 4 or 5 energy and needs to run around in a circle for a good 30 seconds to build up enough reserve to be a threat again.
Kill them then.

Whirling Defense is a great skill for a touch ranger becuase it protects them from all kinds of dooming interrupts, knockdowns, and melee attacks... but its only 16+ seconds...
Hit them when it runs out.

Yes, he will use a speed boost skill and chase you around. If that happens, self heal and keep moving.
Or Keep moving and let your team heal you...
the point is - KEEP MOVING!
Obviously your chances vary depending on what skills you've got, and your own level of playing ability.

I play Warrior all the time - and lets face it - that's who the touch ranger is really annoying... All us warriors.
But Still:

Bolgo (with a sword) - houses Touch Rangers... yes, I run around like a little girl for a good half minute waiting for a good oppertunity! But that's what it takes to deal with the situation. This is a good oppertunity for TEAMWORK.

Bolgo (with a hammer) - houses Touch Rangers faster... obviously the knockdown helps. 4 knockdowns and a ton of damage while you're on the floor... ownage.

Touch rangers are an awesome build for killing inexperienced players... and you don't need to be all that great to play one to its full potential. Unlike Interrupt rangers which are great for killing experienced players, and you DO need to be pretty great to make it work.

My point is the Touch Ranger Potential is capped by the mechanics of how it is designed to operate.

Touch rangers are fun - but an experienced team or fairly decent PvP players recognize the the situation fairly quickly. Everyone ganks the touch ranger... and you do it from long distance.

If you approach the Touch Ranger situation as a problem, and you handle that problem as a team - touch rangers are perfectly fair.

It would be interesting to see GvG use Touch rangers as their offensive force - but It's not likely to be successful against high ranking guilds.

Touch can't constantly put out damage and their ability to spike is hindered by the touch nature of their primary attacks.
Plus a balanced team of 8 has enough healing to offset a combined spike effort - leaving them wasted of energy, or not making enough contact/damage with a moving target.

In 12 vs 12 there are a lot of instances where people fight 1 on 1 battles... If your build can't fight a touch ranger 1 on 1 - DON'T DO IT! That goes for any situation - just don't run into a losing fight.

And if you're Kurzick - please stop running into a losing battle happy Its far better to run away and be alive somewhere else, specifically at another Capture Point... Beind dead on the ground for 25 seconds doesn't help anyone.

For Good Fun: Anything that cripples touch rangers makes them a joke... don't let them plauge touch you.

So... blah blah -
I Definately could have compiled these thoughts into a more presentable order - but I trust you (the reader) to understand.

glut glut
Bolgo The Madd

Souless · Jun 03, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Well if you were to go Mesmer secondary, I have found that while in a team, the skill Blackout is a rather elegant solution to Touch Rangers. You hit Blackout while the rest of your team hits the ranger

All good fun.

shardfenix · Jun 03, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

how to kill a touch ranger as an ele? you mean in random arenas? lets see...
Meteor Shower, Inferno, Flame Burst.
Mission Accomplished

suiraCLAW · Jun 03, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Meteor Shower

I give you 150k gold every time a exped player stays in such a meteor shower, it just won't work (unless they have 5 secs of lagg or something like that).

Back on topic: I met 2 teams of touch rangers yesterday (it was the same team) when I was trying to learn a guildie the art of a flashbot.

First match: It was in southern shiverpeaks, so we went on the ice in order to snare them on the ice (we got 2 gale's and 1 shock in our build so that wasn't such a big deal). Because they went on our monk I could spam diversion and blackout -> GG

Second match: They somewhat changed tactics, in other words: 3 of them chased me this time -> no time for diversion (couldn't take the risk of staying 2 secs + aftercast on the same spot) -> we lost (still wondering how they could kill me).

Cassie McKnight · Jun 03, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I am the prophet, I am the chosen one, I am the seer of visions, I forsee something called a nerf :P

IE; Anything that requires so much thought and stratergy to counter will quickly become very, very popular. And therfore it's overpowered by definition(popularity=easy=Overpowered, simple)

JR · Jun 03, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassie McKnight

I am the prophet, I am the chosen one, I am the seer of visions, I forsee something called a nerf :P

IE; Anything that requires so much thought and stratergy to counter will quickly become very, very popular. And therfore it's overpowered by definition(popularity=easy=Overpowered, simple)

Heard of IWAY much?

And no, touch rangers do not need nerfing. Like IWAY, they are a build that takes advantage of sub-par players to win.