Curse

Ehrenia · Jun 20, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

if you are playin HA without a single interupt, or a player who can't interupt a 2 second cast (lol) then stop playin HA

interupt>all

tomcruisejr · Jun 20, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

OoA is good but OoP+OoV stacking was better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lando Griffen

Keep in mind that without the spirit of energizing winds, OoA isn't very effective

at least someone is thinking

Yunas Ele · Jun 20, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinea Fig

You and I know that those half arsed changes would barely do anything.

Its not over powered. A half arsed change to it more than enough.

And just to add to the complaints about oath shoting EW:
Oh no, we can oath shot Energizing Winds. Nerf Oath Shot because CLEARLY oath shot spirit spammers unstoppable, right? Oh wait, theres so many ways to shut down an oath shot spirit spammer... Signet of Humility, Wildblow, seeking arrows + savage shot, just to name a few.

shardfenix · Jun 20, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

OoA is a damn good skill, and theres no doubt about it. But I think if you look at other skills, you'll seee that theres a lot of enchantment hate added to factions. Take for example, tranquility. A lot of balance teams have now been running with Tranq/NR spammer instead of a prot monk. That hurts a lot too.

Well, you see, tranquility does not remove all enemy enchantments within seconds. Upkeep enchantments still stay up. It works for both sides, and if you kill it, stays down for awhile because it has a recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Also, AFK Dancers weren't the first to add a rit to OoA IWAY. The first person I saw do it was Shin Cross, back in one of the beta weekends (before AFK had even formed, I think...), but I'm not going to claim he made it since perhaps someone could of run it before, don't really know. But I guess thats irrelivant.

With respect, shin cross couldn't invent an ele with more than one skill on its bar even if he asked for help. I doubt he put in a rit spammer before real people thought of the idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

As for 30 second recharge on OoA, thats too harsh. 25 energy cost and 30 second recharge? What a crap skill. I think perhaps a 3 second cast (thats 6 under NR) would balance things out. Maybe a 10 second recharge too... but 30 seconds? Thats too harsh.

Oh, please yunas. You of all people know apostasy costs 10 energy, not 25. No, a longer cast time would not balance anything, because...well, scroll up and look at my map. It takes 10-15 seconds to walk to where you can interrupt/kill apostasy, so increasing the cast time is pointless. Please don't call 30 seconds too harsh, currently OoA is better than the old NR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehrenia

if you are playin HA without a single interupt, or a player who can't interupt a 2 second cast (lol) then stop playin HA

interupt>all

If you're playing Guild Wars and don't know what "radar range" is, you need to uninstall. It's time to alt f4. Please do research before trying to insult people. Thanks.

shardfenix · Jun 20, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lando Griffen

Hmm...maybe find a way to work OoA into your own build? I think it's a good skill, it's not really that iway is overpowered either, it's just that a lot of teams are underpowered because they aren't prepared. But I think OoA would be a great tool to take out some of these ridiculously annoying holding builds

You know, the ones that if you cap first, gg for you, and if they cap first, gg for them.

I do use apostasy in some of my builds, but the point I'm making is NOT that I'm losing to it (which is true anyway), but that it is overpowered. See the stats on the wins/losses. Iway beats good spike groups on average 5 times as much when they use apostasy, mainly because the only defenses against iway are:
1: Defensive enchantments and the less than 10 skills that help only a little bit (ward melee is about the only thing useful once apostasy hits.)
2: Kiting...which is hard when youre crippled and dont have sprint on your monks
3: Killing 4 warriors, 2 infusers with unlimited energy, and a rit spammer who sits a mile behind the group.

So tell me, how can I prepare for apostasy iway? Run all secondary eles with windborne speed and condition removal to remove cripple?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbgtboy

if you are running bonds and aegis is up, the nec puts up ooa he will get spiked down (2 strikes from each war = 8 enchantments stripped = dead necro), ive seen this happen a couple of times before, this skill is no way in hell overpowered, the health sac is enough as it is and if it was increased more then the skill would be totally worthless.

But 99% of the time, if iway is trying to kill someone, they have 2-3 warriors on the target, so they would only be removing 2 enchantments, plus maybe 1 on whoever the other warrior is attacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Typhus

In all honesty OoA is fine. We are yet to come close to losing to an OoA iway, but have lost almost lost one to a Taint.(out of about 120 matches in the past 3 days.) In fact, I think we've given elemental science a stroke. Record's still 13-0 buddy.

You're an iway player, im not gonna call you stupid or lame or noob for saying that, but i will say your opinion doesnt count because it's biased. I only care about the opinions of people who don't iway, because of course iwayers are gonna think its a fine skill. One guy already said they should make it better somehow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

How about you kite the warriors during the 6 seconds OoA is up?

Because casters don't have sprint, and you run slower when crippled.

Yunas Ele · Jun 20, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Well, you see, tranquility does not remove all enemy enchantments within seconds. Upkeep enchantments still stay up. It works for both sides, and if you kill it, stays down for awhile because it has a recharge.

Tranquility + NR though. Sure doesn't remove them within seconds but it takes down upkeep enchantments and makes them A LOT harder to keep up. As for the recharge, its the same as Energizing Winds on an Oath Shot. And an OoA necro w/o EW won't be casting OoA much...

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

With respect, shin cross couldn't invent an ele with more than one skill on its bar even if he asked for help. I doubt he put in a rit spammer before real people thought of the idea.

He was the first person I saw run it. Maybe he didn't invent it, but he was running it before AFK Dancers formed so they certainly didn't invent it. But thats irrelivant to the topic at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Oh, please yunas. You of all people know apostasy costs 10 energy, not 25. No, a longer cast time would not balance anything, because...well, scroll up and look at my map. It takes 10-15 seconds to walk to where you can interrupt/kill apostasy, so increasing the cast time is pointless. Please don't call 30 seconds too harsh, currently OoA is better than the old NR.

Its 25 without Energizing, which can easilly be stopped (gale, signet of humility (to prevent oath shotting it), wildblow and then a normal interupt, savage shot + seeking, arrows... etc).

Sure a long cast time wouldn't do much, but as far as I'm concerned, not much needs to be done. OoA IWAY is not unstoppable. I'd say I play on some of the better IWAY teams out there and trust me, we lose our share of games.

30 seconds IS to harsh. With 30 seconds you won't be seeing any teams running OoA anymore. It'll be dead, just like Order of the Vamp. 10-15 seconds I can work with but 30 is just too harsh.

shardfenix · Jun 20, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Tranquility + NR though. Sure doesn't remove them within seconds but it takes down upkeep enchantments and makes them A LOT harder to keep up. As for the recharge, its the same as Energizing Winds on an Oath Shot. And an OoA necro w/o EW won't be casting OoA much...

You're only backing up my point. 2 skills combined arent half as good as OoA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

He was the first person I saw run it. Maybe he didn't invent it, but he was running it before AFK Dancers formed so they certainly didn't invent it. But thats irrelivant to the topic at hand.

Then why did you bring that little fact up? Let's stick to the argument - broken or not broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Its 25 without Energizing, which can easilly be stopped (gale, signet of humility (to prevent oath shotting it), wildblow and then a normal interupt, savage shot + seeking, arrows... etc).

The ranger drops EW close to the ooa necro, who is miles away from the opposing team most of the time. It's just as hard to kill EW as it is to kill the necro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Sure a long cast time wouldn't do much, but as far as I'm concerned, not much needs to be done. OoA IWAY is not unstoppable. I'd say I play on some of the better IWAY teams out there and trust me, we lose our share of games.

Once again, this is not about OoA being unstoppable. It's about whether it is broken or not. Compare it to dark apostasy, which drains your energy, only works on MELEE CRITICAL HITS, and only affects one person. You can mathematically find out that OoA is ~128 times better than its assassin counterpart (works on 8 people instead of 1, normal attack and critical hits (x4), and works with wands and bows, not just melee (x4))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

30 seconds IS to harsh. With 30 seconds you won't be seeing any teams running OoA anymore. It'll be dead, just like Order of the Vamp. 10-15 seconds I can work with but 30 is just too harsh.

Thats such a load of bull. Teams would still run it, and it would still be powerful with a 30 second recharge. It needs something to counter the fact that EW makes it way more godly and abusable than it already is. My guild runs OoA in their ranger spike, and we could deal with a 30 second recharge. I honestly think a more practical nerf is to remove the life-loss part of it, and only make it count once per party member, the same way dark fury works.

tomcruisejr · Jun 20, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

..currently OoA is better than the old NR.

old nr rendered hexers useless (illusion, water, curse, whole line of hex), not just enchanters. just summon an nr and all hexes and enchants by enemies in the battle field will be gone. and to top that, it can be summoned multiple times and can be spammed using oath.

not true :P.

Yunas Ele · Jun 20, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

You're only backing up my point. 2 skills combined arent half as good as OoA.

In certain situations tranq + NR >>> OoA. I think something your forgetting about OoA is that you have to hit with OoA to remove the enchant. With wards and Aegis up, its not easy to hit. NR + Tranq completely owns Aegis. Double second cast time to last half as long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

The ranger drops EW close to the ooa necro, who is miles away from the opposing team most of the time. It's just as hard to kill EW as it is to kill the necro.

The only case where this is difficult is in HoH. I think in almost all other maps it shouldn't be hard to have a ranger slightly over extend, use savage shot quickly and then run back. This can of course be switched for a mesmer with cry of frustration, an ele with gale or whatever. And even in HoH, the warriors are more concerned on taking down the monks and body blocking ghosts to worry about 1 ranger quickly running in and out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Once again, this is not about OoA being unstoppable. It's about whether it is broken or not. Compare it to dark apostasy, which drains your energy, only works on MELEE CRITICAL HITS, and only affects one person. You can mathematically find out that OoA is ~128 times better than its assassin counterpart (works on 8 people instead of 1, normal attack and critical hits (x4), and works with wands and bows, not just melee (x4))

Ever considered the fact that dark apostasy might be UNDER powered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Thats such a load of bull. Teams would still run it, and it would still be powerful with a 30 second recharge. It needs something to counter the fact that EW makes it way more godly and abusable than it already is. My guild runs OoA in their ranger spike, and we could deal with a 30 second recharge. I honestly think a more practical nerf is to remove the life-loss part of it, and only make it count once per party member, the same way dark fury works.

Go run in an IWAY team with OoA and only cast it every 30 seconds then talk. Might as well go back to a tainted.

I like the make it count once per party member idea. Not going to argue with that because thats certaintly balanced, IMO.

Lando Griffen · Jun 20, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

All I know is, People win halls all the time, and it's usually not iway... I don't hear them complaining about how it's overpowered. Seems this thread is how OoA is too powerful for iway, but I guess it's ok for your rspike. If one necro is causing your team that much trouble, then by all means, shut down the necro. People call for skill nerfs all the time, maybe their build needs a skill boost instead

General Typhus · Jun 20, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

You're an iway player, im not gonna call you stupid or lame or noob for saying that, but i will say your opinion doesnt count because it's biased. I only care about the opinions of people who don't iway, because of course iwayers are gonna think its a fine skill. One guy already said they should make it better somehow.

Way to try and sweep me under the rug just because I showed OoA is not overpowered. I don't run iway, unless the new iway runs 2 warriors, 2 eles, a ranger a rit and 2 monks. We took halls about 8 times yesterday and you can ask any team we rolled (including your team). Don't jump to conclusions when you see NR. I play to win and iway doesn't win.

I've had about enough of your "I'm rock, Nerf Paper" attitude.

[edited for flames - JR]

JR · Jun 21, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Less flaming.

General Typhus · Jun 21, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

I'm not sweeping you under the rug. I don't understand how you think the skill is fine. It is beyond me. Please explain how a skill that destroys half the game is not overpowered. Please, I want to know why so many people think it's a fine skill.

I dont care if you're sick of my "I'm rock, nerf paper" attitude. I'm sick of your "I'm iway, i cant do anything past pressing c + spacebar, please let me have the only skill that lets me win because it's overpowered" attitude.

Your argument is irrelevant and stupid, simply for the fact that I don't play iway. OoA is shit, work around it. Don't rely so heavily on enchants. SImple enough. Try including wards instead of aegis, hexes instead of buffs. Better yet, try playing something other then spike. You're no better then the iwayers you scorn.

Matt B · Jun 21, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Typhus

Your argument is irrelevant andstupid, simply for the fact that I don't play iway. OoA is shit, work around it. Don't rely so heavily on enchants. SImple enough. Try including wards instead of aegis, hexes instead of buffs. Better yet, try playing something other then spike. You're no better then the iwayers you scorn.

Well said. IWAY and spike is for people that SUCK at PvP. Please uninstall the game if you can only play those builds because you SUCK at PvP.

shardfenix · Jun 21, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

In certain situations tranq + NR >>> OoA. I think something your forgetting about OoA is that you have to hit with OoA to remove the enchant. With wards and Aegis up, its not easy to hit. NR + Tranq completely owns Aegis. Double second cast time to last half as long.

How hard is it for 4 warriors to hit someone through 75% chance of blocking over 5 seconds? not very. statistically, the number of hits even 2 warriors can get in 5 seconds through wards + aegis is about 4, which is enough to strip as many enchantments off a target as they need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

The only case where this is difficult is in HoH. I think in almost all other maps it shouldn't be hard to have a ranger slightly over extend, use savage shot quickly and then run back. This can of course be switched for a mesmer with cry of frustration, an ele with gale or whatever. And even in HoH, the warriors are more concerned on taking down the monks and body blocking ghosts to worry about 1 ranger quickly running in and out.

Yunas, even though you play iway, you're smart enough to know that savage shot does not go through walls. every map has bugs or nooks for a necro to hide in and protect himself from rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Ever considered the fact that dark apostasy might be UNDER powered?

Yes, that still doesn't change how broken OoA is. I was just comparing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Go run in an IWAY team with OoA and only cast it every 30 seconds then talk. Might as well go back to a tainted.

Wow.
1: id rather not run iway, i enjoy playing builds that require skill.
2: Look what happened to oov.
3: Even having apostasy up 1/6 of the time would decimate a team who isnt ready for it. The way it is now, you can keep apoc up 100% of the time with no drawback (it takes at least 7 enchantment strips to kill the necro, which has a blood renewal or healing breeze on plus heal area.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

I like the make it count once per party member idea. Not going to argue with that because thats certaintly balanced, IMO.

OMG yunas and shard agreed on something WTFHAXXORZ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Typhus

Way to try and sweep me under the rug just because I showed OoA is not overpowered. I don't run iway, unless the new iway runs 2 warriors, 2 eles, a ranger a rit and 2 monks. We took halls about 8 times yesterday and you can ask any team we rolled (including your team). Don't jump to conclusions when you see NR. I play to win and iway doesn't win.

I've had about enough of your "I'm rock, Nerf Paper" attitude.

I'm not sweeping you under the rug. I don't understand how you think the skill is fine. It is beyond me. Please explain how a skill that destroys half the game is not overpowered. Please, I want to know why so many people think it's a fine skill.

I dont care if you're sick of my "I'm rock, nerf paper" attitude. I'm sick of your "I'm iway, i cant do anything past pressing c + spacebar, please let me have the only skill that lets me win because it's overpowered" attitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lando Griffen

All I know is, People win halls all the time, and it's usually not iway... I don't hear them complaining about how it's overpowered. Seems this thread is how OoA is too powerful for iway, but I guess it's ok for your rspike. If one necro is causing your team that much trouble, then by all means, shut down the necro. People call for skill nerfs all the time, maybe their build needs a skill boost instead

It's even overpowered in ranger spike. I'm not saying it isn't. It's cheap of us to use it, but even if they nerf it pasy playability, we can replace it with gaze of contempt, or if need be, expunge enchantments. There are plenty of counters to ranger spike, apostasy does not fix all of them. IWAY only has 1 weakness - damage reducers, and apostasy gets rid of those, making it a build with no weakness.

General Typhus · Jun 21, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

It's even overpowered in ranger spike. I'm not saying it isn't. It's cheap of us to use it, but even if they nerf it pasy playability, we can replace it with gaze of contempt, or if need be, expunge enchantments. There are plenty of counters to ranger spike, apostasy does not fix all of them. IWAY only has 1 weakness - damage reducers, and apostasy gets rid of those, making it a build with no weakness.

Wrong. If you are honestly having THAT much trouble with Iway, then just find a new build. Conventional ranger spike just doesn't run any counters to Iway. Ever tried using hexes that slow IAS, give a chance to miss, hinder a warrior in general(Wards cut damage by 50%)? No. Because you play the exact same build and make no productive changes (whereas Iway actually does, sadly enough). So just stop trying to belittle me by saying I play iway, I don't. Iway doesn't win.

Yunas Ele · Jun 21, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

How hard is it for 4 warriors to hit someone through 75% chance of blocking over 5 seconds? not very. statistically, the number of hits even 2 warriors can get in 5 seconds through wards + aegis is about 4, which is enough to strip as many enchantments off a target as they need.

Is that including kiting or just standing still? What about kiting with a ward against foes up? To me that statistic looks like your target is just standing still, and if your just standing still, you deserve to lose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Yunas, even though you play iway, you're smart enough to know that savage shot does not go through walls. every map has bugs or nooks for a necro to hide in and protect himself from rangers.

Shardfenix, even though you play spike, you're smart enough to know that rangers are not the only form of interupts. There are interupts that can go through walls, such as cry of frustration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Wow.
1: id rather not run iway, i enjoy playing builds that require skill.
2: Look what happened to oov.
3: Even having apostasy up 1/6 of the time would decimate a team who isnt ready for it. The way it is now, you can keep apoc up 100% of the time with no drawback (it takes at least 7 enchantment strips to kill the necro, which has a blood renewal or healing breeze on plus heal area.)

Maybe I'm alone here, but when I have a problem beating a certain build and can't see any obvious counters, I go and play that build. Then I see what that build loses to. Then I integrate the counters into my build.

geminisaga · Jun 21, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

mostly ppl that complain is from rnub , i wonder that :O. i think they piss off cant beat iway imo

shardfenix · Jun 21, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Is that including kiting or just standing still? What about kiting with a ward against foes up? To me that statistic looks like your target is just standing still, and if your just standing still, you deserve to lose.

Fair enough. Assuming the target is crippled, only half those hits go through, but it's enough to piss off a bonder anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Shardfenix, even though you play spike, you're smart enough to know that rangers are not the only form of interupts. There are interupts that can go through walls, such as cry of frustration.

damn i was hoping you didnt know what a mesmer was lol. Still yet, apoc necros are too far back for one mesmer to overextend to waste an interrupt, then another interrupt 2 seconds later, then another interrupt 2 seconds later. Did I mention it has radar range and has no recharge?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Maybe I'm alone here, but when I have a problem beating a certain build and can't see any obvious counters, I go and play that build. Then I see what that build loses to. Then I integrate the counters into my build.

Sorry, as much as I would love to play iway *cough* I don't need to grind fame that badly, nor do I wish to play with unskilled players who only win because of broken skills. I don't play to farm fame, I play to improve my skills and have fun (i will admit the few times I have played iway, it was pretty fun)

Quote:

Originally Posted by geminisaga

mostly ppl that complain is from rnub , i wonder that :O. i think they piss off cant beat iway imo

Mostly english learn elementary school. Time thanks for sir

Thezela · Jun 21, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

1: id rather not run iway, i enjoy playing builds that require skill.

Sorry, as much as I would love to play iway *cough* I don't need to grind fame that badly, nor do I wish to play with unskilled players who only win because of broken skills.