Curse

Symbol · Jun 25, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I noticed they improved the skill quite a bit in the last update, but since guildwiki's description stated that the dagger had to hit a fleeing foe it didn't seem worth the trouble. However guildwiki was wrong (they updated it). The condition is actually "hit a moving foe". With that in mind crippling dagger becomes a very worthwhile alternative to bull's strike, IMO. Comparing the two:

Cost: 5E for both, tie

Recharge: 5S for crippling dagger, 8S for bull's. A win for crippling

Range: Bull's strike is melee, crippling dagger is a little over half the aggro bubble. Big win for crippling dagger here.

Activation: Bull's is an attack, and it seems the effect triggers halfway through the attack animation, so .665 secs. Crippling is 1s. A win for Bull's.

Effect: Bull's is a 2sec knockdown. Crippling is a reasonably long lasting cripple (9 secs at 7 deadly arts). Taken strictly as movement control it seems that cripple is unquestionably the winner.

Bull's is an attack with a reasonable amount of + damage, which is always nice, but since the primary purpose isn't damage I don't think that's a huge deal.

Bull's can miss (block/evade/various hexes/blind). Cripple can be dodged manually, but usually won't be since it requires you to be fairly close to the target in the first place. It's nice against stance users in particular since it goes right through block/evade.

This is a good skill that's been overlooked. It's great for kiters, and you can use it quite effectively on the defense too. Normally I'd say that requiring a certain secondary is a downside, but assassin secondary is great for warriors anyway so meh.

I'm surprised I don't see it used more often. Is there something I missed?

Sluggs · Jun 25, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), the knockdown effect of Bull's strike is triggered when the skill is activated, but the knockdown takes pleaces when the hit lands.

The skill looks great, I'm going to look it up.

Greedy Gus · Jun 25, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

So you're making the comparison for a warrior primary? If so, bull's strike is a 3 second KD. And really, I'd prefer the shutdown aspect of a knockdown to a removeable cripple. Bull's strike isn't merely an anti-kiting skill, it's quite useful against a monk if it can be chained into another KD while you're unloading adren skills.

However, I do like crippling daggers on assassins after they dropped the recharge from something like 15(?) seconds to 5. The problem is just finding room on the bar for it, same as caltrops.

MAdnRisKy · Jun 25, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

without wishing to be too blunt, theres a big difference between being crippled and being knocked down.

Think about it if the target you want to snare is a monk, would you rather have him crippled or knocked down?

Symbol · Jun 25, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sluggs

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), the knockdown effect of Bull's strike is triggered when the skill is activated, but the knockdown takes pleaces when the hit lands.

Not sure what you mean by this-the actual knockdown takes place when the hit lands. If your target stops moving before the hit, you won't get a knockdown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

So you're making the comparison for a warrior primary? If so, bull's strike is a 3 second KD.

Hmm, upon further testing I'm not sure if the base knockdown time is 1s or 2s.

Quote:

And really, I'd prefer the shutdown aspect of a knockdown to a removeable cripple. Bull's strike isn't merely an anti-kiting skill, it's quite useful against a monk if it can be chained into another KD while you're unloading adren skills.

Right, but on the other hand crippling dagger is just better movement control. I see people using bull's defensively for example (to give a kiting caster some breathing room). You can do accomplish that job much better with crippling dagger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAdnRisky

without wishing to be too blunt, theres a big difference between being crippled and being knocked down.

Yes there is, and I'm well aware of the difference. Crippling isn't can't set up a spike like bull's can. As for the scenario-that's a bit vague isn't it?
.
What if the monk has guardian on him? What if you're blinded or hexed with SoF/PoF?

Yeah ideally if I'm ready to spike I'd prefer to KD the monk. But there are lots of situations where a reliable cripple would be better.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 25, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

How about this. Crippling is better on anything other than a warrior primary, bull's is better on warrior primary.

STONESKIN FTW

EDIT: oops, typo, that assassin shoulda been warrior

Schorny · Jun 26, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

On a warrior primary - do you really want to spec in deadly arts?

The only real reason to run a W/A is Death's Charge. Though if you run Death's Charge you are most likely want to spike - in which case Bull's Strike is much stronger.

If you play a pressure build the snare is most likely more useful than the conditional knockdown... Though Crippling Daggers compete directly with things like Shock, Plague Touch, Cop,... and Bull's Strike still works nicely.

So I guess it's one of those skills that are really nice, but just can't fit in yoru normal builds...

Symbol · Jun 26, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

The attribute investment is not a huge burden-note that Guildwiki's page is still wrong on this. You can go 16 sword-9 strength-9 tactics-7 DA and get a good 9s cripple, you only sacrifice one point from strength and tactics.

I just find this skill tremendously versatile. It's useful in a lot of situations, both offensively and defensively.

Quote:

If you play a pressure build the snare is most likely more useful than the conditional knockdown... Though Crippling Daggers compete directly with things like Shock, Plague Touch, Cop,... and Bull's Strike still works nicely.

I'd rank it better than things like CoP or Hex Breaker or the like which people do take on warriors. And hey, like you said there's nothing preventing you from taking both crippling and bull's if that floats your boat.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 26, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

On a warrior with Stoneskin Gauntlets, any knockdown is 3s except for Backbreaker, which is 4.

It does seem like a very useful skill now that you mention it. Strictly better than Bulls for pressuring the other team, and absolutely killer in splits or when moving around the map and defending your squishies.

Assassin secondary is a downside though. I'm a big fan of Shock and giving up that ele secondary really hurts. Unless you're trying to spike with Death's Charge (which is fun but doesn't suit most pressure builds), you're giving up a lot for what's really a marginal improvement on your Bull's Strike slot.

Crippling Dagger is also easier to kite around. It's fairly obvious when a warrior stops to cast, and it's much easier to stop moving for a 1s cast than an attack skill. Finally, Crippling Dagger has aftercast and does not trigger a zealous mod.

Overall, it's something to keep in mind for a W/A, but not something I'd run in most builds.

Symbol · Jun 26, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Assassin secondary is a downside though. I'm a big fan of Shock and giving up that ele secondary really hurts. Unless you're trying to spike with Death's Charge (which is fun but doesn't suit most pressure builds), you're giving up a lot for what's really a marginal improvement on your Bull's Strike slot.

Mmm, well that's a problem with going anything other than W/E really. Actually there's nothing preventing you from taking both bull's and crippling since people seem to value bull's a lot for setting up a spike.

Quote:

Crippling Dagger is also easier to kite around. It's fairly obvious when a warrior stops to cast, and it's much easier to stop moving for a 1s cast than an attack skill.

I disagree. If your reflexes are good it's easy to stop before bull's lands, both skills are equally vulnerable to this. This presumes that the kiting target is watching you of course.

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Finally, Crippling Dagger has aftercast and does not trigger a zealous mod.

It does have an aftercast, but if it lands it's worth the marginal extra mount of time you take (bull's is 1.33, CD is 1.75).

Greedy Gus · Jun 26, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

If you play a pressure build the snare is most likely more useful than the conditional knockdown...

If being knocked down was removable by a 5/.25/2 spell and every team brought at least one copy of it like with draw conditions, maybe.

Even crippling shot, the king of cripple got destroyed by everyone beginning to bring draw. There's a reason people bring water eles or galers instead now, (though cripshot guys are still great in very small splits). But conditions are just not very strong, especially when you have no way to cover them from beign mended, copped off, etc. Knockdown is one of the most powerful effects you can hit someone with, and you'd be silly to not take every effective KD you can fit onto your bar.

Byron · Jun 26, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Bull's strike fits in very nicely with the balance of the warrior metagame. A KD every 8 seconds is very advantageous from a pressure perspective. I think the perks of KD have already been well covered in other threads, so I won't continue to beat that dead horse.

In order to take advantage of the crippling dagger attack, some decent spec would have to be taken into the proper assassin attribute, as well. It's possible, I suppose, but I am skeptical as to its reliability. Cripple doesn't really prevent kiting as KD does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by symbol

Bull's is an attack with a reasonable amount of + damage, which is always nice, but since the primary purpose isn't damage I don't think that's a huge deal

A bull's strike from an axe is capable of over 80 damage, and one from a hammer capable of over 100, on top of the KD. It's not a huge deal, but it is a matter that deserves consideration.

fb2000 · Jun 26, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

A bull's strike from an axe is capable of over 80 damage, and one from a hammer capable of over 100, on top of the KD. It's not a huge deal, but it is a matter that deserves consideration.

I just played a match in TA and the warrior (hammer) said he got a 134 dmg bulls on some mesmer. 130dmg isnt just "some dmg" imo

seems like too high of a number, but i cant be arsed to calculated the max dmg of a bulls..

and it doesnt hurt to be able to pack some dmg together with the utility eh

damocles · Jun 26, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

156 damage to be honest

I think the mesmer had some crap armor cause 156 seems a little high even for a critical hit.

About Crippling Dagger I think it's a matter of preference.

SaintGreg · Jun 26, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

i cant be arsed to calculated the max dmg of a bulls

Assuming a 60 AL target, with 16 hammer mastery, and 9 strength, wild blow deals 87 damage. Therefore, bulls strike with the +20 damage will deal 107 damage to a fleeing foe (since you get the guaranteed critical).

TheOneMephisto · Jun 26, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

If being knocked down was removable by a 5/.25/2 spell and every team brought at least one copy of it like with draw conditions, maybe.

Even crippling shot, the king of cripple got destroyed by everyone beginning to bring draw. There's a reason people bring water eles or galers instead now, (though cripshot guys are still great in very small splits). But conditions are just not very strong, especially when you have no way to cover them from beign mended, copped off, etc. Knockdown is one of the most powerful effects you can hit someone with, and you'd be silly to not take every effective KD you can fit onto your bar.

Definetely true. Now if anyone gets any condition that needs to be removed, they just get another character to pull a draw off on them. Almost every build has at least 1 draw, and some even have 2 copies. The thing is, that if you stop to use crippling dagger, then you lose some time on them. Then they just get it mended, drawn, or CoPd off (no cover), and nothing really bad happens.

I'm wondering if crippling dagger is affected by a crippling mod though...

Symbol · Jun 26, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

In order to take advantage of the crippling dagger attack, some decent spec would have to be taken into the proper assassin attribute, as well. It's possible, I suppose, but I am skeptical as to its reliability. Cripple doesn't really prevent kiting as KD does.

This is a weak argument. A moderately long lasting cripple is far better than nullifying the effectiveness of kiting than a 3s knockdown. The strength of KD is that it's not removable, and that it prevents the target from doing anything.

Also, don't underestimate the range factor. Crippling dagger has half normal range, but that's still a big asset compared to a melee attack.

As an anti-kite tool I don't think one can make a credible argument that bull's is as good, absent large amounts of condition removal,

Quote:

A bull's strike from an axe is capable of over 80 damage, and one from a hammer capable of over 100, on top of the KD. It's not a huge deal, but it is a matter that deserves consideration.

I don't think it's fair to assume that bull's will autocrit. After all a regular attack can do that too. Damagewise all bull's gets you is that +20 or so damage (at 10 strength) on a succesfull KD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Definetely true. Now if anyone gets any condition that needs to be removed, they just get another character to pull a draw off on them. Almost every build has at least 1 draw, and some even have 2 copies. The thing is, that if you stop to use crippling dagger, then you lose some time on them. Then they just get it mended, drawn, or CoPd off (no cover), and nothing really bad happens.

If this is true, then why does blind work? After all draw is an even harder counter for blind than it is for cripple (more expensive to inflict, no negative impact on the drawer). I'm highly dubious of this. It's true that condition removal is easy, but the fact that people do still take e/mo flashturrets and cripshots and such indicates that conditions can still be effective even in the face of draw.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 26, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If this is true, then why does blind work? After all draw is an even harder counter for blind than it is for cripple (more expensive to inflict, no negative impact on the drawer). I'm highly dubious of this. It's true that condition removal is easy, but the fact that people do still take e/mo flashturrets and cripshots and such indicates that conditions can still be effective even in the face of draw.

Blind works because flashbots have about 10 pips of energy. If you watch games, in top guilds the wars are only blinded for about 2-3 sec before it's removed either way.

Symbol · Jun 26, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Blind works because flashbots have about 10 pips of energy. If you watch games, in top guilds the wars are only blinded for about 2-3 sec before it's removed either way.

Actually it's not true that said prodigy ele has 10 pips of energy. Prodigy with initial cost and exhaustion factored in is under 5 pips IIRC. More importantly, said flashturret has other things to be doing with that energy. That character has a fair amount of 15E spells on their bar, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that all that regen is going towards blind. Orb, heal party, convert, etc etc are all substantial demands on that ele's time and energy that compete with blinding.

kryshnysh · Jun 26, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Actually it's not true that said prodigy ele has 10 pips of energy. Prodigy with initial cost and exhaustion factored in is under 5 pips IIRC. More importantly, said flashturret has other things to be doing with that energy. That character has a fair amount of 15E spells on their bar, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that all that regen is going towards blind. Orb, heal party, convert, etc etc are all substantial demands on that ele's time and energy that compete with blinding.

Are you counting exhaustion as a total loss? Because unlike most health effects, exhaustion is taken from the pool already lost (if possible), and (according to my limited tests and reading Ensign's posts) when it regenerates it gives you an extra pip of regenerating energy. Thus its 11 pips but the cost of ether prodigy is somewhere around 1 pip. Net gain, about 10 pips.

The Flashbot/Flashturret is called that because Blinding Flash is often what they do to an exclusion of other skills. Sometimes they'll switch over to Heal Party, or use a random Draw Condition, but thats generally a smaller percentage of the time.

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Mmm, well that's a problem with going anything other than W/E really. Actually there's nothing preventing you from taking both bull's and crippling since people seem to value bull's a lot for setting up a spike.

So why ask which is better if you want to take both? Trying to limit to anti-kiting seems too situational to why you need the anti-kiting and the rest of your team. And there is definitely a limit to taking both, 8 skill slots.

Crippling Daggers requires speccing into a new secondary,Bull's Strike has no requirement for a secondary. Advantage Bull's Strike.

Do you usually run a W/A? Than the question should be:
Is Crippling Daggers or Bull's Strike better on a W/A? IMO, no. I don't see counterarguments to the arguments already made that change my mind on them.

Do you normally run a W/E or W/N? Then the question should be:
Is Crippling Daggers + Skill of Choice better than Shock/Plague Touch + Bull's Strike? IMO, again not usually. Depending on what the skill of choice is, there is a slight possibility though.

On an Assassin, and in a few possible builds (where conditions tend to be all over, such as disease, trappers, etc.), I would definitely give it hard thought. On a typical Warrior its likely to get only minimal consideration.

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I disagree. If your reflexes are good it's easy to stop before bull's lands, both skills are equally vulnerable to this. This presumes that the kiting target is watching you of course.

I don't consider 0.665 seconds and 1 second (plus minimal time for the daggers to fly there) to be equal. Both are vulnerable to this, but Crippling Daggers more so. Advantage Bull's Strike.

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It does have an aftercast, but if it lands it's worth the marginal extra mount of time you take (bull's is 1.33, CD is 1.75).

I think the proper comparison is 0 vs. 1.75. CD doesn't do appreciable damage, Bull's Strike gives you the damage of your attack plus damage plus what is basically a free KD (time cost-wise). If CD did the same damage as Bull's, then comparing the time to use them would be okay, but otherwise I don't agree with that comparison of times (valid in some ways, but not in most). Your main objective as a warrior is to do damage, Bull's Strike lets you do that at the same time as KDing (and thus stopping kiting temporarily). CD doesn't and in fact lets your opponent get away even farther, costing you more time to catch up to them (admittedly they are crippled at the end so its not hard, but before the cripple they ran for a second or so, you have to run up to a second to catch up to how far they ran - in addition to any distance between you when you started casting).

IMO Crippling Daggers is weaker than Bull's Strike (on a Warrior) for high end GvG. Its easier to avoid, easier to remove, doesn't full stop movement, takes up time to cast (and close the distance, which is usually minimal), doesn't do appreciable damage, requires going W/A, and thats not even going into the other advantages of a KD.

You may consider the advantages within your build, your skills, and the skills and build of your typical opponents to be worth swapping Crippling Daggers in for Bull's Strike. I very rarely find that worth it.

On an Assassin, I think Crippling Daggers competes with Caltrops for a spot on my bar. On a Warrior, almost never.