Curse

DeviantTeknique · Jun 20, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

UNS RSpiker 1
Ranger/Mesmer

Expertise: 11
Marksmanship: 10
Domination Magic: 10
Inspiration Magic: 1

- Focused Shot (Marksmanship)
- Glass Arrows [Elite] (Expertise)
- Whirling Defense (Expertise)
- Distracting Shot (Expertise)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
- Unnatural Signet (Domination Magic)
- Pin Down (Marksmanship)
- Resurrection Signet

UNS RSpiker 2
Ranger/Mesmer

Expertise: 11
Marksmanship: 10
Domination Magic: 10
Inspiration Magic: 1

- Focused Shot (Marksmanship)
- Glass Arrows [Elite] (Expertise)
- Whirling Defense (Expertise)
- Distracting Shot (Expertise)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
- Unnatural Signet (Domination Magic)
- Pin Down (Marksmanship)
- Resurrection Signet

Spirits RSpiker
Ranger/Mesmer

Expertise: 10
Beast Mastery: 8
Wilderness Survival: 8
Marksmanship: 10

- Focused Shot (Marksmanship)
- Read the Wind (Marksmanship)
- Oath Shot [Elite] (Expertise)
- Whirling Defense (Expertise)
- Fertile Season (Beast Mastery)
- Winnowing (Wilderness Survival)
- Frozen Soil (Wilderness Survival)
- Resurrection Signet

Extinguish RSpiker
Ranger/Monk

Expertise: 12
Marksmanship: 12
Protection Prayers: 3

- Focused Shot (Marksmanship)
- Glass Arrows [Elite] (Expertise)
- Whirling Defense (Expertise)
- Distracting Shot (Expertise)
- Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
- Extinguish (Protection Prayers)
- Favorable Winds (Marksmanship)
- Resurrection Signet

Orders/Communing Rit
Ritualist/Necromancer

Spawning Power: 10
Communing: 10
Blood Magic: 11
Death Magic: 1

- Order of Pain (Blood Magic)
- Boon of Creation (Spawning Power)
- Union (Communing)
- Shelter (Communing)
- Displacement (Communing)
- Ritual Lord [Elite] (Spawning Power)
- Spirit to Flesh (Spawning Power)
- Resurrection Signet

Touch Runner
Ranger/Necromancer

Expertise: 12
Blood Magic: 12
Death Magic: 3

- Wallow's Bite (Blood Magic)
- Vampiric Touch (Blood Magic)
- Plague Touch (Necromancer Other)
- Consume Corpse (Death Magic)
- Escape [Elite] (Expertise)
- Dodge (Expertise)
- Throw Dirt (Expertise)
- Resurrection Signet

2 boon/prot Monks

This all came about when I was trying to figure out skills to use with spamming focused shot, punishing wasn't worth the elite slot since focused kept turning it off. After i figured it out I built this around it with the goal in mind of updating RSpike to factions. I made 2 of these, this one I like more but i'm not sure about. Feedback appreciated, I have a few specific questions and things i'd like to point out

1. I've never played orders, would it work to combine the orders with the communing rit like i did? Flesh of my Flesh would work in a mod that removes res sigs. Spirit to Flesh is there to add abit of health restore for the rit after orders and before casting the spirit

2. I haven't tried applying the touch runner, I like it because it adds defensive abilities and works good for small splits if needed. But it sacrafices snares so i'm not sure. It's totally untested and I haven't thought about it much so it may be useless. Switching it to a traditional runner with extinguish would mean switching the extinguish ranger with R/Me. (This one, 12marks/12exp/3insp. Same skills as UNS, switch Unatural signet with a distract)

3. The Spirit RSpiker could/should me modded, it's based off HoH builds. fertile and FS add some more defense but aren't going to be as useful. Traps might work better but I'm not sure

The other idea I had was going with 1 monk, 1 orders, 1 communing/restoration rit, e/mo runner and 2 r/mo using read+focused+monk elite (like in bloodspike) and 2 r/me using the same build as the UNS above, possibly switching glass arrows for read and using punishing shot. This way is a lot more practical and less of a stretch. i like crazy wacky stuff more though

JR · Jun 20, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Have you actually tried calculating the damage from the spike?

DeviantTeknique · Jun 20, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

i jumped into the zashien to compare the damage from dual shot and focused, after afew rounds I found that focused did more damage but not enough that i'd be willing to dismiss myself having ridiculous luck. Beyond that I haven't thought about it, it didn't really ring any alarms in my head since I was just redoing one that worked already. I'll run a few numbers now. Do you think it's an issue?

Edit: I ran it on the 60 armor dummy. Vamp bow, minor runes, +1 marks head. Highest I landed was 96(-5) lowest was 68(-5). Corrected Average is apprx. 85(-5) Without orders that makes avg. 360 damage per spike. That seem right? I'm not a spiker so I could be way off base on calculating it.

One thing I forgot to mention that I noticed/remembered while crunching the numbers. Energy is much less an issue with focused shot and it recharges alot faster. both make spiking more often/easier and open the team up for versatility mods

MrScaRy · Jun 21, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

-Why use glass arrows anyway?
-Why use drain enchant with 1 inspiration?
-What is your spike combo? Focused + Distracting? Remember focused disables your skills for x seconds.
-Do you notice glass arrows + read the wind on different rangers will give the spike away?
-What would fertile season be used for? If you have it up, you will definitely not be able to spike through it
-A spirit spamming orders is better off just as an orders, or just as a spirit spammer. The spirits have 3-5 second casting time, which will mean you are unable to spike during that time if you want orders. That said, you have several spirits you would want to put up. How will you maintain those orders?

Guillaume De Sonoma · Jun 21, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

A 1 point inpiration drain enchants is to clear the target of enchants i.e. bonds.

Patrograd · Jun 21, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Glass Arrows is interesting, but you cant replace RTW with it, as you cant depend on your spirits being up, and if they're not you wont hit anything.

MrScaRy · Jun 21, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

A 1 point inpiration drain enchants is to clear the target of enchants i.e. bonds.

You'd be using more energy to drain the enchant than actually getting energy from it.. r spikers are almost always running out of energy if they are using a normal spike combo, ie dual shot + savage. With only 1 point in inspiration.. well... you might as well get a monk to drain the enchant instead.. or get another prof to drain it since it will be more beneficial for them

DeviantTeknique · Jun 21, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

at 1 inspiration you get 11 energy from drain, and it costs 10. I think you may be getting it confused with inspired enchanment which does not give more energy than it costs

Glass adds more damage than read does, the speed bonus from RTW does not stack with FW unless RTW is used before going into the FW effect which won't happen that often and shouldn't with this, meaning it won't give the spike away

I put(kept) fertile on when I modded the build template I had because I couldn't think of much to switch in there. I figured it could have limited use for times when the team is backed up in their base to create time to wear the enemy down or for a hard push on the flag stand, it has limited use but it wasn't the main concern I had. After I posted and was thinking about the notes I made i figured traps would be better but I wasn't ready to make that change as I didn't have the experience to say. patrograds point makes me think Fertile could be switched with FW, keeping it charged with oath shot. That puts all the spirits on 1 ranger though

My low end damage estimate is 360 w/o orders on a 60 armor target with all rangers using just focused shot is that not gonna cut it? What do you mean spike combo? I've never done a rspike in GvG, infact i don't have much GvG spike exerience at all (not counting adrenaline) so excuse me if I have no idea what you mean

This is mostly a defensive style build, it'd take a smart rit to play it and know what spirits to use and when, as to stay ready to use orders. That being said I can imagine there would be a noticeable amount of times when orders is not in on the spike but how much difference is it going to make in the long run isn't it approx. 50 extra damage(12x4) or is that not how orders works?. My main concern was getting defense in beyond just using offense as defense and to limit the disruption on spikes. Personally i'd feel more comfortable with a straight channeling/communing rit and nixing orders all together but not comfortable enough to rely on my own judgement on that

Another reason I like the rit is because it means once you have a solid position you can concievably do a split and use the touch runner/UNS spiker or some other combination to switch to a back door pressure team taking out NPCs or flagger or Ressers or w/e while the rits group hold the attention of the main enemy group (could also be using fertile?) the back group doesn't need to be killing, just staying alive. I'd imagine it'd work decently if under a heavy attack at the base or maybe at the flag(?) I'm a big split guy (which is why i haven't taken part in m(any) spikes at high levels) I really wanted to eliminate the position forcing on rspike. Odd that the only way I could think of doing that was turtling in spirits... doesn't make much sense

What about the r/mo mod at the end? Anyone think that would work better? I'd also like some feedback on the idea of a touch runner (since no one has said anything) as it's something i'm juggling around for things that will actually be used.

Thanks every1!

Patrograd · Jun 21, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

[QUOTE=DeviantTeknique]at 1 inspiration you get 11 energy from drain, and it costs 10. I think you may be getting it confused with inspired enchanment which does not give more energy than it costs[quote]

You need at least 6 inspiration. As was said, ranger spike eats energy, you need all you can get

Quote:

Glass adds more damage than read does, the speed bonus from RTW does not stack with FW unless RTW is used before going into the FW effect which won't happen that often and shouldn't with this, meaning it won't give the spike away

Lost me here I'm afraid. yes, glass arrows does marginally more damage, but you wont hit anything with it, unless FW is up. If Fw is down, and believe it or not, teams will kill it if they can, you wont hit squat with your arrows from this guy. just bring read the winds, its easier all round.

Quote:

My low end damage estimate is 360 w/o orders on a 60 armor target with all rangers using just focused shot is that not gonna cut it? What do you mean spike combo? I've never done a rspike in GvG, infact i don't have much GvG spike exerience at all (not counting adrenaline) so excuse me if I have no idea what you mean

A spike needs to hit for something over 700 damage, as usually an amount of that damage will be mitigated by enemies (in this case things like blind, weakness). You cant get to this kind of figure with 3 rangers, which is the fatal flaw in this build imo.

Quote:

I'd also like some feedback on the idea of a touch runner (since no one has said anything) as it's something i'm juggling around for things that will actually be used.

Thanks every1!

In what way is the touch runner stronger than the more usual air ele, water ele or crip shot runner? What does he bring that these dont?

Although these links are kind of dated, I think they will help you to get a grip on what it is that r-spike is supposed to do

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31155
http://www.team-iq.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=215

Hope that helps

DeviantTeknique · Jun 21, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

helps alot, thanks!

I see what your saying with FW and it makes sense. I was responding to another post about how having RTW on the oath shot ranger wouldn't mess the timing of the spike up with everyone else using glass since they'd still travel at the same speed under FW. The main thing that got me to go with glass was that I needed an elite that could be used with just marks and expertise and wasn't going to be disabled by focused shot. I figured going with a blood spike style r/mo would be better but I didn't want to dismiss anything. Glass is out.

I read a few things around and came up with a r/w using charge and shields up and pin down (ala another post by you patrograd) a r/me with unnatural sig, disenchant, and punishing and a r/mo with mark of protection and extinguish.

I have another r/mo and i'm stuck between martyr and empathic removal. I'm thinking martyr and extinguish might be overkill (along with 2 b/p monks). Or maybe just replace with another r/me for more enchant removal/uns/distract?

Last spot (besides the monks) i had some questions on is a bonder/orders. along bond orders and B.sig I put on veil, draw, signet of devotion, boon signet and hard res. Thats what I could come up with, I have fairly solid monk experience in GvG and PvP in general but not as a bonder so I may be alittle off base.

Question that comes up for me, you said 4 rangers aren't going to be enough for damage. Do I go 5 rangers and 1 monk? Drop orders? Or is it focused shot thats causing the damage to be low? (i'm guessing it's the last one)

With that said, each spiker is using dual shot, focused shot, read the wind, whirling defense. Use a dual and que up a focused on the spike? could I get away with putting debilitating shot on 1 or 2 of the rangers to use as their qued skill?

On the touch runner- Giving up snares and the monk secondary is the biggest loss, thats why I've put those things on other classes. I did this because my theory behind the runner is for splits and to add some help in times when he doesn't need to be running but isn't in danger. I imagine that the touch runner could come in with a flag, he can use touches and have an effect w/o having to drop the flag because of survivability stances. This survivability also lets him (and specifically an ele in the build I orginally put the touch runner in) split and attack while the rest of the team defends. This came up because I saw a guild use touchers instead of warriors. It didn't work well for em because they relyed on it all the time but when they split they did some damage to our GL. I liked the idea and it's utility but the only place I could think of putting it was the flagger, it seemed a good fit because of it's natural speed and inability to sustain itself for a real long time. Basically the only role where I could get the strengths I saw the R/N used for but not the weakness of using it as a real GvG slot.

The actual GvG build we (Jelo) use isn't a touch runner, it's an old fashioned water runner, changes sometimes depending on how our runner feels. So I ask only because I like to play around with stuff

Aiiane · Jun 21, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Actually, he said that 3 rangers aren't enough damage. 3 rangers can spike a target down if they're lucky and everything hits, but the other point he was making is that you should never rely on your spike being perfect, because in the real world it won't be. My rule of thumb is usually to assume that at one spiker will not contribute on any given spike, whether it be due to interrupts, KDs, lack of energy (remember to spike with a regular shot in rspike!), conditions, you name it. 4 rangers is the average for GvG rspike.

The other difference to remember between Dual shot and other spike skills - dual shot gives you 2 packets, all other skills give 1, thus Dual works much better on targets protected by Prot Spirit or Shelter.

Patrograd · Jun 21, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiiane

The other difference to remember between Dual shot and other spike skills - dual shot gives you 2 packets, all other skills give 1, thus Dual works much better on targets protected by Prot Spirit or Shelter.

This is the key thing about ranger spike and dual shot

ranger spike is essentially a series of small damage buffs applied to each arrow that hits - so each arrow get s a buff from RTW, FW, winnowing, vamp string, OOP. Dual shot gives you two arrows, thus two of each of these buffs. if you do the maths you will see that dual shot outperforms any other lead spike skill you can think of, despite the recent nerf to its cooldown. If you immediately follow up with an interrupt shot, savage or punishing are the ones most used, you get a third damage packet 1/4 sec later. 4 rangers can therefore deliver 12 damage packets in the space of 0.25 secs, and it is this that makes r-spike work.

I have seen an argument that says that penetrating shot with a hornbow is a better lead skill damage wise, and against high armour targets it probably is, but for me, there is enough room on a ranger spikers bar for all three skills, dual shot, punishing/savage and penetrating. Then you either alternate the spikes, one dual, one penetrating, which gets around the long cooldown to dual shot, or you do dual shot on squishies and penetrating on high armour targets or shields up protted targets, which is probably the more advanced option of the two. Savage shot recharges fast, so you can use it as the follow up to both spikes.

This gives you five spots left on each spiker - one of which is RTW, one of which is rez, so three skills to fit in those spirits, defensive stances and secondary skills which make the build fit your playstyle as a team

defrule · Jul 04, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Me and some guildies done a dual ranger spike in TA a while back. All we had was 2 rangers, Me/N and a boon prot. Works great but timing has to be really good. Aiiane I remember EP doing something like it before they took a break, but you guys had dual orders and an extra lightning orb in there right?

fatboyslimerr · Jul 04, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

With all the things to counter R-Spike
e.g. shields up, displacement etc it seems like any new r-spike build must counter that by using seeking arrows which is a preparation which makes your attacks unevadable and unblockable.

A new r-spike build without seeking arrows, will struggle greatly imo.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 04, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

With all the things to counter R-Spike
e.g. shields up, displacement etc it seems like any new r-spike build must counter that by using seeking arrows which is a preparation which makes your attacks unevadable and unblockable.

A new r-spike build without seeking arrows, will struggle greatly imo.

rigor mortis

fatboyslimerr · Jul 04, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

mehh, ok if you've got a support necro but if you cast rigor mortis on your target doesn't it kind of give away who your gonna spike ???
seems stupid to me but I might be wrong.

DieInBasra · Jul 04, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

You could put it on a /n ranger. If the rest of your group spikes on 1, throw rigor up at 2 and savage right after. On the necro, the caller can call for a rigor, in which case the spike countdown might be a bit longer to fit both the orders and rigor in. At least, that's how my guild does it when we rspike. In both cases the monks have very little time to react to the hex, and if they do, well, they aren't going to catch the spike with healing if they're in the middle of an ihex.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 04, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

mehh, ok if you've got a support necro but if you cast rigor mortis on your target doesn't it kind of give away who your gonna spike ???
seems stupid to me but I might be wrong.

Stick rigor mortis on a ranger or the orders necro. Know how to time it so that rigor gets on the target only right as the first arrows are hitting. Don't use rigor every time, only when needed. Sometimes randomly slap rigor on another target to mess with the monk's mind, etc.