Curse

MrBiggums · Jul 03, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

I don't think its just balanced and iway but rather balanced vs iway+spike. You may only play iway 1 out of 5 times but you will always play bloodspike 1-2 out of 5 and ranger spike 1 out of 5 etc.. All that adds up to 80% vs iway and spikes and 20% vs the 'balanced' builds.(Note: these statistics are pulled out of my ass but when I did tombs everyday this was the case(2 months ago). It gets boring playing against the same builds all the time.

I think the amount of iway teams has decreased from 2 months ago but those numbers have been replaced with dual smite. Fighting iway or spike or smite every once in a while is fine but when it becomes "oh another iway team this run" then it just is rediculous.

Most of the hate is not torwards people who play iway occasionally(because yes iway is fun to play once in a while) but torwards the guilds and players that only play iway or only play spike. These people can only play their one build and when you put them in another role they will be bad at it 95% of the time. I'm sure everyone knows these players and guilds so there is no need to name them.

*For the record yunas is probably one of the 'regular iwayers' that doesnt talk trash as I have played both with and against win or lose*

SonofGrenth · Jul 03, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

I think its really funny, if there wouldnt be a first Iway nerf, i think that we would talk a lot different about Iway. Not mentioning that before the nerf 75%+ of the HA players were iwayers (remember MATH time?).

I play Iway too, and I know Iway is not noob, anyone sais it is is noob himself. I can't say i hate balanced, but i know alot of iwayers hate it. But even I used to play some kind of balanced, since i have played balanced till I was rank 6. The Iway part came from rank 6 to 7.

Anyone saying iway is noob, Pm me ingame and I will show you you were wrong.
Anyone saying Iwayers are noob, Give a PM and i will join your balanced party and play some balanced with you.

~The Fame Shark (for those who need me ingame)

General Surena · Jul 03, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

To be honest,

I don't have a problem with the build, I do like warrior pressure. The only problem I have is with most of its players, who are mostly trash-talking retards who only get an erection when flawlessing other teams, no matter if balanced or just another Iway. It's just there and it's fascinating.

EaT Macros · Jul 03, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonofGrenth

Anyone saying Iwayers are noob, Give a PM and i will join your balanced party and play some balanced with you.

Retarded way of trying to find a real group with good players imo.

Makkert · Jul 03, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryshnysh

Partially. Also because IWAY is a "gimmick" and most balanced players dislike "gimmick builds." IWAY seems to draw more hate than Ranger Spike, Blood Spike, probably because it is more popular.

Hating rose as popularity rose. Similar to SB/RI or Triple Smite in GvG, the more they are played ("abused" to some), the more they are hated.

To continue on this:

A gimmick build takes advantage of the other team having a shortage in counters on a certain part. In casu IWAY, too little warrior hate.

A balanced team tries to prepare for anything that may cross it's path. It's strenght lies partially in diversity, unlike gimmick builds such as IWAY, FC Air etc..

Spike builds also take flack (1...2...3....press button), but IWAY took more flack then any other gimmick build because even this coordination was of far less importance then a spike build.

Almighty Zi · Jul 03, 2006, 11:44 AM // 11:44

I agree with Makkert. Being such a high pressure build you can still roll some teams without a great deal of co-ordination. This is why a lot of folk have recommended it to newer players and why folk/guilds who play IWAY a lot have the stigma that they aren't very good players and are just relying on the build to score wins (rather than their own skill).

MagicFiber · Jul 03, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Fact is that Iway is not overpowered. In the beginning iway punished people for lacking any anti warrior or lack of it. It was okay in the beginning, however. With the coming of OoA it's become a bit too strong.

The reason i dislike iway at the moment is because order of apostacy renders a Prot Monk absolutely useless. Which means you need an earth ele with wards (or any other character with wards) in any build now. Simply because an aegis chain or a bonder will not save you anymore. This gets rid of the versatality.

Also if i hear anyone who says: Go to the necro's. The most decent iway teams use two trappers. Or at least one which makes it near impossible to rush to the Necro's. I'm glad it's only a small amount of teams who do this properly.

Iway is not overpowered, it's become a basic build with the defense they put in it right now. 1 Ritualist & 2 Necro Monks can heal/protect for alot. Two infuses usually is enough for the normal damage output in a team.

The only overpowered skill in iway is order of apostacy which is deadly for any balanced team if used properly.

@ Yunas which says you can try to run an enchantment free build. These teams never last long versus an iway because most protection-like utility's(Wards, Ritualist, Rangers) are easily countered by iway with Wildblow, Distracting blow etc.

PS. Iway is never free fame, if you make one mistake vs an unranked iway even it can mess up your team. I think this is why alot of balanced team (Lower ranked who lack decent monks) dislike iway.

dbgtboy · Jul 03, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinically Proven

IWAY fame = ranked players with no bloody idea how to play anything other than W/R

and is that why my friend asked me to play with his guild group in ha yesterday (his guild is in top 16)?

Quote:

- it has stopped variety in tombs

- the value of fame and rank has been diminshed. So the only reward people have for playing tombs has been taken away from them.
- it has saturated tombs

- it has stiffled the creation of other builds that would be strong against 99% of all builds except IWAY. So it has stopped the creativity of tombs builds.

- nub players running IWAY can beat more skilled players playing something else

-iway has not stopped variety in tombs... there will always be gimmicks and people will run them even if iway never existed.

-iway ruined fame? lol? you obviously havent been playing gw for a long time because you wouldve known that spirit spam used to let players hold halls for hours every single day.

-iway beats people a lot because it hurts the other team a lot for making mistakes, thats why top guilds are harder to beat because of less mistakes. almost any regular build has the ability to beat iway, and i have lost to regular builds while playing iway because they made very few mistakes.

-no no no, like i said before, iway beats people when they make mistakes which is the fault of the other team.

SonofGrenth · Jul 03, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaT Macros

Retarded way of trying to find a real group with good players imo.

Lol, i just wanted to proof that I am able to play balanced, so people might think different about atleast 1 iwayer.

It is not my intention to find a good group, cause when i play iway with my guild, our group always earns alot of fame, probably more then most balanced teams, and it doesnt need 2 hours of planning.

~The Fame Shark of Fame Sharks International (FaMe).

Mental Leteci · Jul 03, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonofGrenth

It is not my intention to find a good group, cause when i play iway with my guild, our group always earns alot of fame, probably more then most balanced teams, and it doesnt need 2 hours of planning.

~The Fame Shark of Fame Sharks International (FaMe).

No,wrong. You make more fame cause you guys don't disband when you lose and we do. You just make few runs till scarred/dark chambers whatever,sometimes you die in underworld etc. and you just go in again. Balanced groups come to HoH,win couple of times and disband. That 1 run with HoH holding is more fame than you do with re-entering tombs all the time and never seeing gold maps. It's simply a fame farm build and I don't see why there are guilds who play iway. It's totally pointless and everyone will dislike the guild. I don't see what's so good about being rank 12 if you got it with iway. No one will care about your rank and everyone will know that you're just a noob. I'm not saying that playing IWAY is bad,playing IWAY all the time is bad and makes you a noob. Same thing with spike. I know a rank 12 guy who infused with backfire,I'm not saying who,but he used to play a lot of spike builds and than he played a monk for one team. That's what happens when you don't change your builds.

SonofGrenth · Jul 03, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Most balanced teams can only win 1 or 2 battles, but I know that the higher ranked (Like Mental), make fame more easily. Also, most iwayers do NOT play iway all the time. MATH and MTRX are exceptions though.

About never seeing Gold maps, today we did 2 runs, on the first we won HoH, on the second we came to courtyard. This happens always when our guild team goes HoH. Maybe that players with lower ranks never see gold, but i can assure you, my guild sees gold maps 9 of 10 runs.

GG.

~The Fame Shark

ubrikkean · Jul 03, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

My feelings on IWAY... it doesn't feel like a plausible build to me for two reasons: lack of innovation and lack of communication.

The couple times I've tried to play IWAY it has been generally unsuccessful and has left me with utter disgust for the group. If -anyone-, often me since I'm not experienced with IWAY at all, does anything even slightly different from the standard, strict procedure, the group gets unreasonably angry, and inevitably someone rage-quits. Many balanced groups are more effective than IWAY simply because, although IWAY may be a more powerful build in many ways, the balanced teams simply have more reasonable players, and those players are allowed to use individual innovation in their builds, they can improvise, while IWAY is stuck in a rut doing exactly the same thing, always, unless they want someone in the group to quit. The next point is communication. I've never seen a pick-up IWAY team that used Ventrilo or TeamSpeak, and I'm particularly skeptical of that. I find it a necessary tool for everything my guild does, and for most Heroes Ascent groups. A lack of communication is another way to prevent innovation in an IWAY build, because everyone has to stick to the pre-specified plan or it won't work. I have some respect for the IWAY build, it certainly is interesting, and I would have no objection to using it with my guild or something, but I can't stand IWAY PuGs for the above reasons, because, as a guildmate of mine has often said, if feels like I'm "whoring out".

Just to make sure it's clear, I have no problem with guilds running IWAY, especially if they mod it and make it their own; my problem is just with PuGs, and only if they really apply to the above statements, which I believe most do.

xRustyx · Jul 03, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

IWAY requires skillful teamwork, while remaining a balanced build utilizing utmost skill to result in a win.

axe · Jul 03, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

OMG, seriously

Play what you have fun playing, dont play the game or change the way you play so that other people you dont know can have fun, and not have to build around popular builds.

Balanced people dislike IWAY because if it didnt exist they would have extra skill slots, since IWAY is common, it eats up skillslots on balanced because they have to bring some counters.

Some people play the game just to talk trash to others, some people enjoy helping other people, some people play to earn virtual money or status. But I dont know about you, I play the game how I have the most fun and enjoyment. I absolutely HATE the fact that I have 3 hours MAX time to play per evening, and as an unranked player if I want to play in HA, I will spend 2 hours making a group to 1 hour playing. (thats inculding disbanding and starting over, I get a 2:1 ratio of being bored vs playing the game) That is not because of IWAY or any other gimmick its because unranked players dont enjoy getting their butts kicked by ANY build that is ranked, guilded, gimmick, henchway, or zaishen.

If you are bored of rolling teams, winning halls, fighting the same team over and over, let me just say, it beats standing around for hours, so I cant say Im sorry for any of you.

One last thing, dont expect people to change the way they enjoy playing, so you can have more fun. This is a game that people play in their free time, people are selfish with their free time, and I dont blame them.

Yunas Ele · Jul 03, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Surena

The only problem I have is with most of its players, who are mostly trash-talking retards who only get an erection when flawlessing other teams, no matter if balanced or just another Iway. It's just there and it's fascinating.

I think this is like my 10th time posting this in this topic, but people keep making this same ****ing stupid point. There are trash talkers from every build in the game. There are " trash-talking retards who only get an erection when flawlessing other teams" on IWAY. There are " trash-talking retards who only get an erection when flawlessing other teams" on balance and spike too. Every other build in the game has trash talking idiots on 'em. Its not IWAY-exclusive. Saying most IWAYers are trash talking retards is like saying most black people are criminals. Its jumping to retarded conclusions about a group of people. Please stop doing it. Thank you, have a nice day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Spike builds also take flack (1...2...3....press button), but IWAY took more flack then any other gimmick build because even this coordination was of far less importance then a spike build.

Sure, IWAY can go maybe 2 or 3 consec without co-ordination but if you want to beat any half decent team with it, you're going to need more co-ordinate than simply counting down from 3 and pressing a button.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicFiber

@ Yunas which says you can try to run an enchantment free build. These teams never last long versus an iway because most protection-like utility's(Wards, Ritualist, Rangers) are easily countered by iway with Wildblow, Distracting blow etc.

Why don't you try running one of these builds. They're a very difficult fight for IWAY. I don't think I've ever beaten GanK (or re-formed as CC now I think) when they are playing their tranq/NR build. I think I'm also like 5 lose, 1 win vs Narugi Mintz, another player who's teams I've seen recently playing enchantment free builds. They basically render OoA useless, and that seems to be the skill everyones complaining about nowadays.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubrikkean

The couple times I've tried to play IWAY it has been generally unsuccessful and has left me with utter disgust for the group. If -anyone-, often me since I'm not experienced with IWAY at all, does anything even slightly different from the standard, strict procedure, the group gets unreasonably angry, and inevitably someone rage-quits.

Thats not IWAY exclusive. Can't keep your wards up or put them in horrible positions? Using your AoE damage on the target alone in the middle of nowhere as opposed to the balled mob? Same things gonna happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubrikkean

and those players are allowed to use individual innovation in their builds, they can improvise, while IWAY is stuck in a rut doing exactly the same thing, always, unless they want someone in the group to quit

Balance isn't innovative. Take 5 standard builds (shock war, mig mesmer, warder, smiter, etc...) + standard 3 monk backline. And who says IWAY does the exact same thing over and over. I can't speak for all IWAYers but I know I mod my IWAY teams a LOT!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubrikkean

The next point is communication. I've never seen a pick-up IWAY team that used Ventrilo or TeamSpeak, and I'm particularly skeptical of that.

Then you've never been in a good IWAY pug.

Also props to Axe for the great post. People can ***** and whine about IWAY all they want, but we're still going to play it.

Gosu · Jul 03, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

The problem with Iway is that it has a stigma attached to it alot like W/Mo's did, whereby if you are seen to be playing as a W/Mo people would deem you a Noob. The Same applies to Iway unfortunatley the problem is unlike W/mo which may have one stigma attached to it Iway has several.

Unfortunately another observation which i have made is this unlike alot of people i actually took the time to look and understand most of the builds in the game including Iway. The thing is before the pre nerf Iway was a horribly overpowered build.

Now everyone pay attention this is where the "real problem arose with Iway" the real problem occurred when alot of sub-par to very average players used and abused this build to get a good rank to play with good players. The problem was as someone stated before was once alot of players had attained this rank they realised as i stated in a prior post many months ago that they would still be the newbie who didn't know that much about the game this in turn i believe was where the term "rank 3 Noob" came into passing.

This in turn adds i believe one and maybe the real reason alot of people dislike Iway in which a great and common misconception was fed into the playerbase community the notion and mentatlity of the community seems to adhere to the opinion that many believe Iway singlehandely destroyed any credability of the personal ranking system. Which whether people like to admit it or not is a major aspect of the pvp side of the game. If anyone disagrees with that view why else have hundreds of people been on the grind in HA.

The thing is that Iway is only a minute problem with the player ranking system, i believe player rank in the game should be based around one's achievements in both Pve And Pvp so therefore if one is to be rated highly in game one must excell in both Pvp And Pve that would maybe make the rank system more coveted. As the Grind would be enormous to seriously acheive any good rank.

another common misconception attached to Iway among people,is that it's assumed that if you play Iway you therefore don't know how to play the game at all period, unlike with mending W/mo's who were just deemed lame noobs. Now in some cases this is not true as i know people who are very good at the game but have this affinity for the iway, but unfortunately there is a vast minority of Iwayers that don't know how to play any pvp builds other than iway.

Alot of people are bringing up the fact that Iway has been nerfed now but that happened realtively quite recently and alot of the playerbase still remember the days of the Iway dicatatorship and hold ill will for the build this is human nature just because something has gone away or been toned down doesn't necessarily mean it is forgotten.

I digress, from my observations and discussions with other players about it in game IWay is a straight forward build alot like ranger spike that in all truthfulness requires a basic and limited amount of skill to utilise to it's full potential.

In respect to balanced builds which has a degree of greater complexity and in all truthfulness needs a higher degree of playing skill to utliise to it's fulll potential.

In my opinion i don't have a problem with the iway build i just have a little problem with how it was explioted in Ha thats all.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 03, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Okay, to all you IWAYers here, most of these comments aren't directed towards you. They are directed towards the average, IWAY'ed to r9 and can't play anything else, flash emote in your face every time they win, only gets 2-3 consec and constantly plays in the UW for fame, IWAYer. The problem is that IWAY encourages these people. It turns into (or use to be) and IWAY on IWAY fest in UW over and over again, getting them fame.

Thom · Jul 03, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

People hate IWAY because for a period of a few months, you farm fame by pressing c->spacebar. The level of game awareness required to play IWAY compared to beating that same IWAY team was significantly different. Broken IWAY could be played with a large margin for error but leave the opponent precious little marging for error. A good IWAY team with voice com during the "broken period" could adren spike you as well as pressuring. Teams like MATH were exceptionally difficult to beat.

As a result everyone was either playing IWAY or an IWAY counter for a few months. Teams that wanted to counter IWAY (so called "balanced" teams) had to bring so many skills to succeed it was turning into a bad joke. Tactics can only take you so far on most HA maps. The irony of the whole thing was that many people would farm IWAY in order to be able to play with R9+ groups. Since farming was easier now that it had ever been, rank was less indicitive of skill than it had ever been. At the same time, rank meant enough for it to be the leading indicator for grouping.

IWAY is a good pressure build and mildly enjoyable to play when you are with a group of good players. It is well designed for the HA enviroment and has a rightful place in tombs in its current non-broken state. The fact of the matter is that it really killed all balance for an extend period of time. The IWAY era changed the tombs environment in many ways by removing "Johnny" and giving the game to "Timmy". That is to say, players who really like to roll teams with a power build were rewarded and players who enjoyed tinkering and creative builds didn't have much of a chance. As for "Spike", competitive players either played an elite IWAY or farmed IWAY and got fame either way. "Johnny" and "Spike" never really respected "Timmy" much to begin with and your IWAY warriro has become a symbolic of that style of play.

(If you think I'm talking gibberish, search for that MtG article on player styles)

master_of_puppets · Jul 03, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Before nerfs IWAY was both extremely overpowered and overused. Now it still is both but not as much. (90% of the reason its overpowered now is because of OoA). The reason people hate IWAY is that when you play it, you're not playing to win halls, you're playing to get 2-4 consecutive wins to farm fame. I have IWAYed before and still do every once in a while when guild members arent on. If you ever win halls with IWAY then its either inactive hours or you got really lucky. IWAY never holds HoH nowadays. Nowadays that is, before the nerfs maybe. And dont bullshit yourself with "Yesterday I held halls with IWAY 10 times in a row with 3 AFK'ers and 2 henchmen and 2 PuGs during peak hours"

As some people pointed out its not the people who IWAY occasionally that are most hated, its those r9+ morons who never do anything at all except IWAY and think they're so good and talk shit. I can see why someone would IWAY sometimes but NOT all the time and NOT with their guild and DEFINITELY NOT in GvG. (Im not gonna point fingers now but you might know who im talking about.) Using IWAY in GvG is just pathetic...

IWAY is very easy to play and takes little skill and nothing anyone says can prove that wrong. If its not then how come 95% of IWAY groups dont use ts/vent, dont set anything like who's responsile for going after enemy spirits, calling targets etc. and can still beat organized, experienced guild groups. I have IWAYed before and back when I was unranked I've beaten good guild groups with unranked IWAY PuGs. Ive won with IWAY groups with total noobs who had full knights armor, using hammers/swords, or had the completely wrong skills or attributes.

MagicFiber · Jul 03, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Why don't you try running one of these builds. They're a very difficult fight for IWAY. I don't think I've ever beaten GanK (or re-formed as CC now I think) when they are playing their tranq/NR build. I think I'm also like 5 lose, 1 win vs Narugi Mintz, another player who's teams I've seen recently playing enchantment free builds. They basically render OoA useless, and that seems to be the skill everyones complaining about nowadays.

I did, and it's definitly doable. But it's way too hard for the avarage pickupgroup nowadays. And usually most balanced teams can kill these teams fast.