Curse

TheOneMephisto · Jul 02, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Also, IWAY creates bad players. If you tell the average r9 IWAY war to play any other build, 95% of the time he won't be able to play it. IT has destroyed the rank system. Now a very large number of ranked players have got there by IWAYing. Rank is no longer a way to tell the actualy skill of the player. He might be a skilled player who held halls a lot and played in good teams and got to rank 9. Or he might be a r9 IWAYer who doesn't know how to play anything but an IWAY war.

I would rather take a non-ranked player just out of practicing in TA than a r9 IWAYer for any PUG team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonofGrenth

If balanced players hate this so much, why are they always complaining about Iway, if they are bored it would mean they would win from it. And if they win, they get fame/rank. So why are they tired of "free" fame?

~The Fame Shark

Some balanced players don't like killing the same build over and over again. Sometimes balanced players want to have a variety of interesting battles, many of which test their abilities and the adaptabilities of their build. Some balanced players also want to face builds with creativity, builds that, even when they lose, they can go "Wow, that was amazing, we should try it sometime."

Yunas Ele · Jul 02, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Long post coming up... First I think I'll make my comments on the original post, why do balancers and IWAYers hate each other, before argueing against all the BS other people have posted.

I don't really know where it all started, but I know one of the reasons is that balancers lost to IWAY a few too many times and then complain about it and start shit talking the IWAYers. What happens when someone talks shit? The other people start shit talking back. Also, how come a top guilds such as iA, Te, iGi, iQ, etc. never trash talkers IWAY? Because they can roll through it no problem, so they have no reason to complain about it.

However, thats just one of many reasons. Another reason is that some people are just plain assholes (this includes both IWAYers and balancers) and just like to talk **** for the hell of it.

Then theres of course the 'peer pressure' factor of it. "Hey look, all the cool respected balancers are trash talking IWAY, I'll trash talk it too or else they might think I'm an IWAY nub"

There are more reasons too but I really can't be bothered to post them all. I'm just going to say if a lot of balancers didn't say "LOL nice builds noobs, uninstall the game or go back to pve cuz u ****ing fail at life" and a lot of IWAYers didn't respond back with "stfu you ****ing faggots, we just flawlessed your noob ass!", there might not be so much hate between the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Also partially because balanced players are tired of PLAYING IWAY ON 9/10S OF THEIR MATCHES.

Thats a grossly exagerated stastic pulled right out of your ass. You, I and every tombs player here knows that. Maybe 1/5 matches are IWAY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

I'm honestly not sure where it all comes from - you hear RA players who haven't even got HA on their map moaning about IWAY.

I always get a chuckle out of that. Heck, I see IWAY hate in PvE now too. Back when I was in MATH, my MM got kicked out of quite a few mission groups because I was "an IWAY noob that wouldn't know how to play MM".

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

because 80% of tombs is iway
and because it rendered fame useless. sure fame wasnt that great to begin with, but at least past gimmicks (spirit spam, smite, r spike) got nerfed (some more than others).

80% of tombs is not IWAY. Much like the guy who said 9/10 teams are IWAY, you pulled that stat right out of your ass. Fame had no meaning before IWAY. Fame is a representative of how much you can grind in PvP, not of your actual skill. If it did have a meaning to it, spirit spamming killed it way before IWAY, but the fact is, it didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chooby

INow, let me tell you why I don't play IWAY:
1) The people in ANY IWAY team seem to have minimal understanding of the game
2) They shit talk at the end of rounds, so it shows me that they are not nice people, hence the reason I wouldn't play with them.

1) If you had said in some IWAY teams, you'd of been right. But ANY? You just lost all credability there. Lets face it, a lot of today's top American players that now do balance started with IWAY. Also a lot of the top respected players often play IWAY too. I could post more on this specific point but its just pure BS I'm not going to bother.

2) You can't pinpoint shit talking to a build. Thats like saying all blacks are criminals. There always have and always will be shit talkers from all builds. There will be shit talkers from IWAY and there will be shit talkers from balance, the same way there will be criminals from all races so you can't just pinpoint it to one race. Another BS point. Thank you for your wonderful contribution to the topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chooby

The reason I hate IWAYers is the simple reason that most of them are just dim-wits that can't string together an argument if their life depended on it.

Then how come I'm totally owning you in this arguement? You're again jumping to a conclusion that all IWAYers are stupid. Again, thats like saying all blacks are criminals. Its jumping to conclusions about a group of people. Another BS point. I again thank you for your wonderful contribution to this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chooby

If you get shit talking from another balanced its usually like "Hehe, your build sucks, your mesmer casts conjure before migraine too." (Notice how the spelling and grammar is exceptable). The shit talking you get from an IWAYer is usually along the lines of "lol noob i hit good and you died lol your build suck go back to heroes hahahaha noob" (Notice "1337speak", no capitalisation of letters and no punctuation)

Wow... again jumping to ignorant conclusions about a group of people. Both balance and IWAY teams talk shit. Some in 1337, some in correct grammar, some saying more harsh things than others. You can't relate shit talking to one type of build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebirther

I'm not a fan of IWAY mainly because I prefer to be in a team that has a great flexibility of co-ordination and one that doesn't have players rage quitting because they lost the first round.

People rage quit after the first lose in balance teams too. Its not IWAY-exclusive. But other than that I agree with your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Also, IWAY creates bad players. If you tell the average r9 IWAY war to play any other build, 95% of the time he won't be able to play it. IT has destroyed the rank system. Now a very large number of ranked players have got there by IWAYing. Rank is no longer a way to tell the actualy skill of the player. He might be a skilled player who held halls a lot and played in good teams and got to rank 9. Or he might be a r9 IWAYer who doesn't know how to play anything but an IWAY war.

There were bad players before IWAY. If IWAY never existed there would be bad r9 players still. Rank never had a meaning, even before IWAY. Even if IWAY never existed, it would have no meaning. Rank is a representative of how much you grinded in PvP. It never represented skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Some balanced players don't like killing the same build over and over again. Sometimes balanced players want to have a variety of interesting battles, many of which test their abilities and the adaptabilities of their build. Some balanced players also want to face builds with creativity, builds that, even when they lose, they can go "Wow, that was amazing, we should try it sometime."

You think us IWAYers don't either?. Lets look at balances today. Always run the same, standard 3 monk backline. Then lets see, 1 or 2 shock warriors. A migraine or e-denial mesmer or 2. A curses or tainted necro. A smiter. Warder. And occasionally a choking gas ranger or fire ele. Take any 5 of those + standard 3 monkbackline. Boy oh boy, those balance builds are just FLOWING with creativity. (I know theres a few more roles in balance teams but thats besides the point.)

Now, if you're one of thsoe few people who attempt to run new creative builds (I give props to those few people) then you can make these comments about IWAY, Dual Smite, Balance, R-Spike, B-Spike, mix-spike and every other FOTM build. But I doubt you are.

phasola · Jul 02, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

15% iway, right
give or give 50%

Thom Bangalter · Jul 02, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

I love balanced, and Iway is never a problem for me. Blood spike on the other hand is a real pain in the butt, simply because it takes so long to take one of those scarred weirdos down.

which is not to say that I won't play blood spike, because I do a lot, spirit spamming.

phasola · Jul 02, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

You think us IWAYers don't either?. Lets look at balances today. Always run the same, standard 3 monk backline. Then lets see, 1 or 2 shock warriors. A migraine or e-denial mesmer or 2. A curses or tainted necro. A smiter. Warder. And occasionally a choking gas ranger or fire ele. Take any 5 of those + standard 3 monkbackline. Boy oh boy, those balance builds are just FLOWING with creativity. (I know theres a few more roles in balance teams but thats besides the point.)

you are right, those balanced builds suck
and 3 monks ? what's up with that ? why take monks when u can get a w/r ?

Yunas Ele · Jul 02, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

you are right, those balanced builds suck
and 3 monks ? what's up with that ? why take monks when u can get a w/r ?

Thank you for missing the obvious point in my post. I wasn't argueing the effectiveness of the build. I know the standard 3 monk backline is VERY effective and thats why everybody runs in. I was argueing the creativity of it.

Helll is for Heroes · Jul 02, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

IWAY was too good but after the nerfs, it is just a standard build. I dont know why people cuss it so much, it takes much skill for an iway build to beat a balanced/dual smite build these days and iway doesnt dominate HoH anymore so i dont know why people are still complaining about a heavily diluted build.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 02, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helll is for Heroes

IWAY was too good but after the nerfs, it is just a standard build. I dont know why people cuss it so much, it takes much skill for an iway build to beat a balanced/dual smite build these days and iway doesnt dominate HoH anymore so i dont know why people are still complaining about a heavily diluted build.

The reason everyone hates it is because they remember the days when everyone and their grandmothers ran it. For instance, a lot of those points are from a while ago. Now, IWAY isn't nearly as bad (even though OoA IWAY is fairly annoying), but people still hate it because they are use to hating it.

Of course, I don't HA much anymore. Now that TA has a tangible metagame with quite a few good teams in it, that's what I play more often now.

phasola · Jul 02, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Thank you for missing the obvious point in my post. I wasn't argueing the effectiveness of the build. I know the standard 3 monk backline is VERY effective and thats why everybody runs in. I was argueing the creativity of it.

of tell us master strategist what a balanced build really is
and btw, balanced may look the same, but u still have some diversity, some ppl run eles, some run mesmers, some necro, etc
but iway now that's really creative : 4 w/r, 1 ooa necro, 1 ooa necro, 1 ranger, 1 rt

Yunas Ele · Jul 02, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

of tell us master strategist what a balanced build really is
and btw, balanced may look the same, but u still have some diversity, some ppl run eles, some run mesmers, some necro, etc
but iway now that's really creative : 4 w/r, 1 ooa necro, 1 ooa necro, 1 ranger, 1 rt

Key word: some. Not a lot, just some. IWAY occasionally drops a rit for a 2nd ranger, or an ele. Or drops a nec for a monk. Or a war for a buny thumper or various other mods. Sure its probably a bit less diverse than a balance team, but not by much.

I also never claimed IWAY was creative (well it was when it was first run.... but not anymore) so stop putting words into my mouth.

phasola · Jul 02, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

and all the iways i've played in the last couple of weeks were as stated above
i'm sick of fighting iway, u're sick of fighting balanced "uncreative" builds
i asked u how should a build look like ? something "creative"

Yunas Ele · Jul 02, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

and all the iways i've played in the last couple of weeks were as stated above
i'm sick of fighting iway, u're sick of fighting balanced "uncreative" builds
i asked u how should a build look like ? something "creative"

Hmm, a creative build. Well the other day a friend called me to help test his "blackoutway build". Basically it was 6 mesmers with blackout and illusionary weaponry, a ranger with qz and various skills to slow down the enemy (barbed trap, pin down, etc) and a battery necro.

Basically, the idea was that with QZ down, you can keep a constant blackout on your foe while hitting em with illusionary wepronry. In my opinion that was definately a creative build.

phasola · Jul 02, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

that's creative no doubt
how about making something that works ?

Mental Leteci · Jul 02, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Yunas,you said that top guilds never lose to IWAY. I'm sure you just came up with that cause no one complains about it. You want to know why no one complains? Almost all of the guilds you mentioned there are spike guilds. They never lost with spike,of course, but they run balanced builds sometimes (believe it or not) and when they do they sometimes lose to IWAY. No one said IWAY is unbeatable,sometimes you win,sometimes you lose. But most of the time you lose cause range of the orders is hilarious. For an example take Scarred Earth. You have to fight IWAY as your 2nd team,they wait for you at the gates,trap the place,when you defeat your 1st team warriors rush in and necros stay all the way back protected with traps and spamming orders. Now you need to go all the way to them to kill them and then sh*t starts to happen. It's just stupid and it IS overpowered. Someone said IWAY was nerfed. We all know that it was never nerfed (speed stack with IWAY and Tigers Fury isn't actually nerfed cause it shouldn't stack in the 1st place so it was more of a "fix" than "nerf") and now they added OoA,it's like they're just helping IWAY. What were they thinking when they made the skill.
Also,Yunas,what do you mean by 3 monk backline,or ele,or mesmer,or shock war,or that or that. Game was made with 6 (8 now) classes and you're supposed to use those classes.
Let me add one more thing,IMO if they would put back old tombs like it used to be (6-way burrial and scarred,etc.) IWAY would be gone cause it would be obvious that everyone would gank it. Now that's something I'd like. I'll admit,I played IWAY couple of times and still no one flames me about it. Why? Cause I got about 50 fame with it and the rest is with balanced (not spike).
Also,all spikers have no right to insult IWAYers or to complain about "requires" or "does not require" skill. IMO IWAY requires more skill than spike,cause believe it or not it may look easy,but actually if you never played IWAY before you won't win so easy. Still,my opinion about OoA stays,it makes IWAY overpowered.

Zui · Jul 02, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

they added OoA,it's like they're just helping IWAY. What were they thinking when they made the skill.

Probably somthing like this... "Hmm all theese HA scrubs rely way too much on enchantments for everything, every single fotm except ViM hinges upon them... And almost every balanced team is dependent on them just as much as the fotms... Let's mix things up!"

glenn_rolfe · Jul 03, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Non-IWAY players hate IWAY for the following reasons;

- it has stopped variety in tombs

- the value of fame and rank has been diminshed. So the only reward people have for playing tombs has been taken away from them.
- it has saturated tombs

- it has stiffled the creation of other builds that would be strong against 99% of all builds except IWAY. So it has stopped the creativity of tombs builds.

- nub players running IWAY can beat more skilled players playing something else

lambda the great · Jul 03, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Tis a game, play what you want.

Clinically Proven · Jul 03, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

IWAY fame = ranked players with no bloody idea how to play anything other than W/R.

Not that I'm much of a fan of Blood Spike, Dual Smite, ViM et al.

Yunas Ele · Jul 03, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Also,Yunas,what do you mean by 3 monk backline,or ele,or mesmer,or shock war,or that or that. Game was made with 6 (8 now) classes and you're supposed to use those classes.

You're supposed to, but they usually don't. Look the assassin. I think Brehon is the only sucsessful tombs player than frequently uses an assassin in his builds. The point I was trying to prove with that is that generally, most balanced teams are not much more creative than IWAY. They simple chuck 5 standard builds (shock war, mig mesmer, warder, etc...) and a standard 3 monk backline together and then trash talk IWAY for being uncreative because their build is just FLOWING WITH CREATIVITY. (for the slow people out there, I'm being sarcastic. Most balance builds aren't much more creative than IWAY, nowadays.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Probably somthing like this... "Hmm all theese HA scrubs rely way too much on enchantments for everything, every single fotm except ViM hinges upon them... And almost every balanced team is dependent on them just as much as the fotms... Let's mix things up!"

And thats why they added it, as well as many other enchantment hating skills to factions. To everyone complaining about OoA IWAY, try running an enchantment free build (such as the NR/Tranq builds I'm seeing a lot lately) and see if you still struggle as much vs OoA IWAY. You won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

- the value of fame and rank has been diminshed. So the only reward people have for playing tombs has been taken away from them.

There was no value of fame and rank to begin with. And even if there was, it was killed by spirit spamming.

krytas · Jul 03, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I dont' see why they argue, IWAY is just a build, nothing more. So is balanced, but yes my teamates have been asswholes to the other team whether it be balanced or IWAY.