Curse

kryshnysh · Jun 27, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Assassins front load damage a lot. Warriors tend to require adrenaline build up. Very small difference, but it can be important in PvP tactical use, even in straight up 7v7 at the flag stand.

Greedy Gus · Jun 27, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

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Originally Posted by kryshnysh

Assassins front load damage a lot. Warriors tend to require adrenaline build up. Very small difference, but it can be important in PvP tactical use, even in straight up 7v7 at the flag stand.

To a degree, yes. The flaw in this argument however, is that assassins require a 3-5 skill combo (that can't be broken) to output that "frontloaded" damage, and the combo itself is generally backloaded in damage due to dual-attacks being key.

So while warriors do need some time to get built up, when they are built up they're the most deadly character on the team and can unleash their most powerful skills instantly. Imagine if final thrust 'failed' if the target didn't have a deep wound on him, that's the kind of problem assassins deal with when trying to get their money shot off.

Isil`Zha · Jun 28, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

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Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

There's some solid builds in there, but I find it a bit sad that both Assasins and Ritualists are utilised solely for AoD and Ritual Lord, respectively.

True, a lot of people use that and nothing else, but I have several other builds I use as well that don't involve any of those skills.

For instance I'll go with Dancing Daggers, Entangling Asp, Palm Strike, Twisting Fangs, and possibly another Duel attack, just to have an extra one.

The first 3 alone usually can do a lot of damage, Dancing Daggers recharges fast and is a ranged attack, Asp does a knockdown and inflicts a long duration of poison, and Palm Strike hits hard, counts as an offhand, and can't be blocked or evaded.

Twisting Fangs is just undeniably useful in PvP though - the spike from Deep Wound and it's affect on healing plus bleeding for some more degen - that's full 10 degen from Asp and Fangs alone. And by this point they're usually running... So Enduring Toxin at -4 for a total of -14 degen to act as a buffer for regen healing, like Healing Breeze or Troll.

At my current levels, and with the help of my daggers, that's a total of 20 seconds (not counting Enduring Toxin) with -10 degen. Without any healing that's a total of 400 damage not accounting for all the damage done by the attack skills themselves plus any regular melee attacks.

I also have an AoD build for spell caster disruption using disrupting stab and exhausting assault. There's plenty of uses for an Assassin, and I usually have 2 or 3 slots open for support skills which I'm constantly changing. I'd consider the GPS-Horns-Spider-Twisting with AoD to be the core build, and the other skills I'm constantly changing - some are for specialized for going after specific targets, like I mentioned above, Mirriored Stance, blinding poweder, and unseen fury are good for going after Rangers and Warriors, but then I have other support skills like Caltrops, Crippling Dagger, Enduring Toxin, Heart of Shadow, ect that help me fight anything, just in different ways. I usually use the specialized ones when I'm playing with friends and they have good builds for taking on spell casters, but are weak against Warriors and/or Rangers, so I take what's needed to make the team work better as a whole.

And BTW, when me and my Guildies get together in AB, we run around almost unstoppable as we go from shrine to shrine capping them - Last game just two of us held off half of the entire opposing team that was attempting to spawn kill, for a good 5 minutes.... we were the victors. And guess what, he had an Assassin build that I've never seen anyone use before.

But yes, it's sad that most people still don't seem to see Assassins or Rits as being that valuable to a team - Rumors from the Preview Event apparently spread and everything thinks neither class is that useful -

Which is funny cause I usually make a dozen kills or more with very few deaths - usually none, in AB.

Isil`Zha · Jun 28, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

To a degree, yes. The flaw in this argument however, is that assassins require a 3-5 skill combo (that can't be broken) to output that "frontloaded" damage, and the combo itself is generally backloaded in damage due to dual-attacks being key.

So while warriors do need some time to get built up, when they are built up they're the most deadly character on the team and can unleash their most powerful skills instantly. Imagine if final thrust 'failed' if the target didn't have a deep wound on him, that's the kind of problem assassins deal with when trying to get their money shot off.

Except an Assassin's 'money shot' is worth a lot more than a Warrior's Final Thrust. A Twisting Fangs alone will hit someone with 500 health for 150+ damage and inflict bleeding for that attrition factor - with AoD and GPS, you're looking at about 2-3 seconds of combat time before the Assassin as already hit with over 200+ damage.

Here's how I see they work: Warriors have good, moderate steady damage with decent spike damage from their skills.

Assassins have low-moderate sustained damage from their basic attacks, with extremely high spike damage and conditions from their combos.

That isn't to say Warriors don't inflict anything, but Assassins have a lot more things to inflict various conditions with. In a battle of attrition, the Assassin will win with much longer lasting and more powerful degen and other conditions. Most Assassin poisons last nearly as long as most forms of Bleeding, and it's more than 2x as powerful.

Greedy Gus · Jun 28, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Except an Assassin's 'money shot' is worth a lot more than a Warrior's Final Thrust. A Twisting Fangs alone will hit someone with 500 health for 150+ damage and inflict bleeding for that attrition factor - with AoD and GPS, you're looking at about 2-3 seconds of combat time before the Assassin as already hit with over 200+ damage.

I was never implying that dual attacks aren't awesome...I think both of my posts in this topic have been to say that they are what assassin damage is all about. And I only brought up final thrust because it's fits the 'skill chain' idea best: sever->gash->final, not to say it's the most devastating warrior attack skill.

Twisting fangs is excellent yes. It's slightly better than an eviscerate. The only problem is that you need to throw in extra moves in front of it to even get it off successfully. This is why I totally disagree with you saying that assassins spike harder than warriors. The only way assassins can outdamage warriors in the same number of attacks is if they can force two dual attacks into their chain.

Your example of GPS->twisting only does an average of ~141 damage + deep wound, assuming 16 dagger mastery, 10 crit strikes, and a 15>50 dagger set (which some people are actually not running).

An average axe combo of eviscerate + executioners does ~161 + deep wound in two hits (16 axe, 10 strength). And this is ignoring the fact that every warrior brings an IAS stance to spike with, yet almost no assassin bar uses one. So you're taking 50% longer to do your two hits.

Up it to three attack skills, the warrior will still win by a longshot. Only once you're up to a 4 skill "spike" can the assassin do more damage due to fitting in two dual attacks. However, every single one of these attacks is dependant on the previous one, and the start depends on your enchant being up. And it's increasingly harder to call your combo a "spike" when it takes 4+ seconds to pull off, with the most devastating hit with the deep wound at the very end. And again, if you timeframe it with the warrior using his IAS stance, his spike is still harder.

So what do you end up with? An assassin bar crammed full of attack skills with little room for utility doing combos that require 30+ energy, that are pretty weaksauce until they get all the way through it, and are just plain bad on an 'instantaneous' spike timeframe (initial hit). Whereas the warrior spike is king of the instant, intermediate (2 hits, 1.5-2 seconds), and even long timeframes for damage compression.

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Here's how I see they work: Warriors have good, moderate steady damage with decent spike damage from their skills.

Assassins have low-moderate sustained damage from their basic attacks, with extremely high spike damage and conditions from their combos.

Warriors have good steady damage (no competition really) with the best spike damage in the game from their skills.

Assassins have low-moderate sustained damage from their basic attacks, with high damage combos that need a while to pull off and can't fail any attacks. Assassins are strong because of movement and AoD teleporting.

It's no coincidence that people use assassins for ganking NPCs and not much else. The only other place you see assassins get any play is in the cripshot slot, where they're used for strength in splits and flagger harassment. You don't see assassins making their way into spike builds.

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That isn't to say Warriors don't inflict anything, but Assassins have a lot more things to inflict various conditions with. In a battle of attrition, the Assassin will win with much longer lasting and more powerful degen and other conditions. Most Assassin poisons last nearly as long as most forms of Bleeding, and it's more than 2x as powerful.

Sorry, this part is just ridiculous to me. Random intermittent degen conditions are a non-threat to a competitive team.

Bio-Flame · Jun 28, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I think you're missing the point here.

Warrriors ----> MUCH better DPS than Assassins

Assassins ----> slightly better Spike than Warriors.

Remember that while Warriors have to build up adrenaline to be highly effective, Assassins don't. Ok, you can argue that Assassins need to hit so that their combos will work. That's true enough but it's also true that Warriors need to hit to get adrenaline AND need to hit to unleash that adrenalne.

Assassins also have a lot more mobility than Wars, but less survivability.

So it all depends on what you want on your team.
You want a very good all-around guy, very mobile and able to solo an enemy base? Assassin is your man.
You want a tough, highly resilient dude, with the highest DPS in the game? That's called a warrior.

In the end it's all about the role you want on your team.
Assassins won't replace Warriors I think but they can be useful in certain roles in certain teams.

Greedy Gus · Jun 29, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

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Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

I think you're missing the point here.

Assassins ----> slightly better Spike than Warriors.

That's just wrong. You cannot give a realistic timeframe that an assassin hits harder than a warrior. The assassin's limiting factor is energy and skill recharge, while the warrior's is adrenaline. While this may favor the assassin slightly, that's just spike frequency and isn't really the main aspect of saying which spike is better.

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Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

Assassins also have a lot more mobility than Wars, but less survivability.

So it all depends on what you want on your team.
You want a very good all-around guy, very mobile and able to solo an enemy base? Assassin is your man.
You want a tough, highly resilient dude, with the highest DPS in the game? That's called a warrior.

In the end it's all about the role you want on your team.
Assassins won't replace Warriors I think but they can be useful in certain roles in certain teams.

Agreed

Jagan Vastary · Jun 29, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

I think you're missing the point here.

Warrriors ----> MUCH better DPS than Assassins

Last I checked, the pseudo attack boost gained from dual strikes allows assassins to have DPS roughly comparable to warriors.

I think the main problem with assassins is the fact that this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

Assassins ----> slightly better Spike than Warriors.

Is also incorrect. Warrior spike > assassins spike because warriors can compress their spikes while assassins are stuck at normal attack speed. An axe warrior really only uses two attack skills, evisc and exec strike, he fills up his bar with a knockdown, speed buff, attack speed boost, and a self heal. An assassin has to take at least 3 attack skills, a teleport skill, which is almost always AoD(without this, why play an assassin?), a (poor) self heal, and a speed buff (I prefer dash but most people bring dark escape, which isn't really a speed boost, but rather a defensive stance similar to a ranger's).

I think if you want to make an assassin a viable alternative to a warrior, you need to 1. Make lead and offhand attacks 1/2 second activation times, pretty much all of them. This compresses assassin spike and fits with the "dual attack" theme of daggers, and 2. Lower the recharge on all non-elite teleport to enemy skills, increase the energy cost if you want to.

I think if you did these two things, the assassin class looks a lot more promising.

Phades · Jun 29, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Assassin damage is more like a damage chain than a spike, since "the combo" is strung out over 4 skills that consist of 6 hits technically. This doesn't include the teleport of course.

Isil`Zha · Jun 29, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I was never implying that dual attacks aren't awesome...I think both of my posts in this topic have been to say that they are what assassin damage is all about. And I only brought up final thrust because it's fits the 'skill chain' idea best: sever->gash->final, not to say it's the most devastating warrior attack skill.

And I was mearly pointing out that while an Assassin may have to build up to it more, it's worth more, and besides, the build up itself does a lot of damage.

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Twisting fangs is excellent yes. It's slightly better than an eviscerate. The only problem is that you need to throw in extra moves in front of it to even get it off successfully. This is why I totally disagree with you saying that assassins spike harder than warriors. The only way assassins can outdamage warriors in the same number of attacks is if they can force two dual attacks into their chain.

I think I used the term spike wrong.

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Your example of GPS->twisting only does an average of ~141 damage + deep wound, assuming 16 dagger mastery, 10 crit strikes, and a 15>50 dagger set (which some people are actually not running).

An average axe combo of eviscerate + executioners does ~161 + deep wound in two hits (16 axe, 10 strength). And this is ignoring the fact that every warrior brings an IAS stance to spike with, yet almost no assassin bar uses one. So you're taking 50% longer to do your two hits.

You also have to consider that getting up to Twisting Fangs through the whole combo chain does a lot of damage in itself. The whole GPS->Horns->Spider->Twisting Fangs, at Dagger Mastery of only 12 will do a total of (assuming target has 500 health) 245 damage and a health degen of -7. Against a Warrior, this is about the real damage done, and in another second or so, the Assassin can start the entire combo again. And with the knockdown in there, the Warrior is also briefly inturrupted.

That's the theory, and it works pretty well in practice, a Warrior will usually lose about half their health from that single combo. True, I will need to heal in there usually, and it's not that bad a heal if you're actually attacking (it should heal that extra amount at all times, but bah), and a second combo chain is more than capable of taking the Warrior down for good (if you account for energy recharge and skill recharge and it takes on average [I say average due to critical hits giving energy] another 8 seconds before the combo is completed a second time - that's another 112 done by degen alone, and if they're not dead yet, kiting will take care of it.)

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Up it to three attack skills, the warrior will still win by a longshot. Only once you're up to a 4 skill "spike" can the assassin do more damage due to fitting in two dual attacks. However, every single one of these attacks is dependant on the previous one, and the start depends on your enchant being up. And it's increasingly harder to call your combo a "spike" when it takes 4+ seconds to pull off, with the most devastating hit with the deep wound at the very end. And again, if you timeframe it with the warrior using his IAS stance, his spike is still harder.

Again, I think I misused the term spike.

But, the Assassin does have a bit more armor than you're giving them credit for.

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So what do you end up with? An assassin bar crammed full of attack skills with little room for utility doing combos that require 30+ energy, that are pretty weaksauce until they get all the way through it, and are just plain bad on an 'instantaneous' spike timeframe (initial hit). Whereas the warrior spike is king of the instant, intermediate (2 hits, 1.5-2 seconds), and even long timeframes for damage compression.

With all those, and AoD, you still have room for 3 utility skills, and you can do a lot with those. Blinding powder is killer for Warriors - GPS->Blinding powder and the warrior is all but disabled while the Assassin continues on with their combo chain. Combined with Crippling Dagger/Caltrops, the Warrior can't really go Kiting after being blinded either. Though Mirriored Stance is fun. I get the IAS, defense, and speed boosts from them. Nothin like "borrowing" Gladiator's defense!

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Warriors have good steady damage (no competition really) with the best spike damage in the game from their skills.

Assassins have low-moderate sustained damage from their basic attacks, with high damage combos that need a while to pull off and can't fail any attacks. Assassins are strong because of movement and AoD teleporting.

...and I'd say their ability to inflict conditions all over the place. But the combos do put out a lot of damage rather quickly. Combined with AoD for a surprise, my targets usually don't even get around to targeting me before I've knocked them down already - so they're already at a disadvantage. I mean, that is what an Assassin should be about, right?

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It's no coincidence that people use assassins for ganking NPCs and not much else. The only other place you see assassins get any play is in the cripshot slot, where they're used for strength in splits and flagger harassment. You don't see assassins making their way into spike builds.

If they can only take out NPCs, even with the build described, then they're not using the build very well, or taking the right utility skills. Most varients of that build, for me, work rather well against, well, anything. Warrior's included. I've many a 1 on 1ed a Warrior and taken them down without any Warrior-killing specific utility skills. I'm not saying it's easy for an Assassin to do it without proper utility skills, but then Warriors do have the best defense and rather high damage output. But with proper utility skills, it's actually quite easy to take down a Warrior. With an AoD or some other teleport, you get the surprise on them, and can preemptively use something like Blinding Powder, effectively disabling any damage they can do to you before they even turn to engage you.

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Sorry, this part is just ridiculous to me. Random intermittent degen conditions are a non-threat to a competitive team.

Are you sure? That damage done by the degen doesn't just not exist, while the fight continues, through degen, the Assassin is doing constant damage, which should be taken into account over the course of the fight. That, and I've made many many kills via degen, especially when they attempt to flee. Or even if I flee, I'll usually stick in enduring toxin on them while they case me, upping the degen even further. - You'd be amazed how many people will just continue running once I stick enduring toxin on them, and die as a result.

Isil`Zha · Jun 29, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagan Vastary

I think if you want to make an assassin a viable alternative to a warrior, you need to 1. Make lead and offhand attacks 1/2 second activation times, pretty much all of them. This compresses assassin spike and fits with the "dual attack" theme of daggers, and 2. Lower the recharge on all non-elite teleport to enemy skills, increase the energy cost if you want to.

I definately agree on the teleporting part. I mean, why the heal does Death's Charge have a 45 sec recharge?

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I think if you did these two things, the assassin class looks a lot more promising.

It works pretty well now. The thing is, most people don't play as an Assassin. They attempt to play it as though it were a Warrior, which it is definatly not.

Siren · Jun 29, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

It works pretty well now. The thing is, most people don't play as an Assassin. They attempt to play it as though it were a Warrior, which it is definatly not.

Precisely. I'm seeing hints of Warrior vs Assassin damage output going on here and having a good chuckle, because when there's solid math computation being done, it becomes clear that Assassins have more of an edge when it comes to damage output--especially in the hands of a skilled player using a solid build.

I recall a few times where I used a few auto-attacks, then BLS, and it was enough to prompt the Warrior to use a Heal Sig. I had the guy down close to half health after three attacks. And then the KD from MoI+Twisting Fangs took care of his Heal Sig. Falling Spider hit him after that. Then Death Blossom finished him.

It's interesting, to say the least, seeing how a properly played Assassin can decimate anything on the field. Including Warriors.

And I've done some nasty Assassin spikes--spikes that rival (or exceed) Warriors--so Assassins can definitely spike.

DieInBasra · Jun 29, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

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because when there's solid math computation being done, it becomes clear that Assassins have more of an edge when it comes to damage output--especially in the hands of a skilled player using a solid build.

Um, solid math in a vaccum isn't what happens ingame. An assassin that has twice the numerical dps of a warrior will never be able to unleash that dps as often as a warrior(who can also push frenzy to blast his dps through the roof).

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And I've done some nasty Assassin spikes--spikes that rival (or exceed) Warriors--so Assassins can definitely spike.

A spike isn't a spike past a 3 second timeframe, and even that's really pushing it. A warrior can get his stuff done in 1.8 seconds, a sword can get his done in 2.7.

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I recall a few times where I used a few auto-attacks, then BLS, and it was enough to prompt the Warrior to use a Heal Sig. I had the guy down close to half health after three attacks. And then the KD from MoI+Twisting Fangs took care of his Heal Sig. Falling Spider hit him after that. Then Death Blossom finished him.

I'm pretty sure this discussion is GvG, anything works in RA/AB. And the fact you can only pull of your combo every 25 seconds at most doesn't impress me.

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It's interesting, to say the least, seeing how a properly played Assassin can decimate anything on the field.

Yeah, but my Fire ele completely owns assassins. They try attack me, but I just use meteor shower. lol dead assassin.

kryshnysh · Jun 29, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Though Mirriored Stance is fun. I get the IAS, defense, and speed boosts from them. Nothin like "borrowing" Gladiator's defense!

Sorry, I had to post this. I laughed at the thought of Gladiator's Defense in PvP. Are you talking Alliance Battles? Mirroring Frenzy is usually a good way to get sliced to ribbons. I would hesitate to say any warrior using Gladiator's Defense would be in "Competitive PvP" as Gus used the term.

Jagan Vastary · Jun 29, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

It works pretty well now. The thing is, most people don't play as an Assassin. They attempt to play it as though it were a Warrior, which it is definatly not.

I do play as an assassin, and I'm talking about GvG, while it seems you are talking about RAs.

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Originally Posted by Siren

Precisely. I'm seeing hints of Warrior vs Assassin damage output going on here and having a good chuckle, because when there's solid math computation being done, it becomes clear that Assassins have more of an edge when it comes to damage output--especially in the hands of a skilled player using a solid build.

The four attack combo of GPS > Horns > Spider > Fangs sure looks good on paper, but you can save the guy getting spiked by that with signet of devotion. The most effective assassin spike is AoD > GPS > Fangs with the rest of your team spike assisting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I recall a few times where I used a few auto-attacks, then BLS, and it was enough to prompt the Warrior to use a Heal Sig. I had the guy down close to half health after three attacks. And then the KD from MoI+Twisting Fangs took care of his Heal Sig. Falling Spider hit him after that. Then Death Blossom finished him.

I'm talking about GvG, where warriors have monks to support them.

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Originally Posted by Siren

It's interesting, to say the least, seeing how a properly played Assassin can decimate anything on the field. Including Warriors.

In a team environment, no, he can't. In a 1v1, yes, he can, noone is debating wether an assassin can kill anything without a monk backing it, hence the assassins use as an NPC ganker.

Isil`Zha · Jun 29, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

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Originally Posted by Jagan Vastary

I do play as an assassin, and I'm talking about GvG, while it seems you are talking about RAs

AB/TA

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The four attack combo of GPS > Horns > Spider > Fangs sure looks good on paper, but you can save the guy getting spiked by that with signet of devotion. The most effective assassin spike is AoD > GPS > Fangs with the rest of your team spike assisting.

And it works good in practice too, which kind of tosses the "looks good on paper only" thing out the window. But yes, for a quick spike I just jump straight to Fangs.

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I'm talking about GvG, where warriors have monks to support them.

So really, in a situation you're describing, the Warrior has to have support from a monk - IOW, you're describing a 2 on 1 scenario. But this statement is a double edge sword. The Assassin will have monks and other teammates to back them up as well. You're acting like part of the Warrior's inherent abilities are the supporting Monk's healing/protection, while leaving the Assassin alone...

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In a team environment, no, he can't. In a 1v1, yes, he can, noone is debating wether an assassin can kill anything without a monk backing it, hence the assassins use as an NPC ganker.

In a team enviornment, Assassins get help from the team as well. Why is it you're assuming the Assassin does everything solo in a team environment?

DieInBasra · Jun 29, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

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And it works good in practice too, which kind of tosses the "looks good on paper only" thing out the window. But yes, for a quick spike I just jump straight to Fangs.

Only barely. A mesmer can pretty easily sit on you with enchant drains, the monks has 4 seconds to react which defeats the entire purpose of a spike, the damage backloaded, and it requires you to hit 4 times in a row to have any effect, as well as your target has to be away from other characters, not an easy thing to manage after you catch them by surprise the first time.

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So really, in a situation you're describing, the Warrior has to have support from a monk - IOW, you're describing a 2 on 1 scenario. But this statement is a double edge sword. The Assassin will have monks and other teammates to back them up as well. You're acting like part of the Warrior's inherent abilities are the supporting Monk's healing/protection, while leaving the Assassin alone..

It'll let the warrior build adren, the only reason you can kill a warrior as an assassin is because A) he sits their and fights back, and B) It takes him a while to have adren for his combo, but you can hit him off the bat. In an assassin vs monk senario, the assassin is never going to kill him without the monk being totally unaware, and in an assassin+monk vs warrior+monk, the warrior and monk are going to win, or at least be better off (I don't know if a single war can ever kill a single monk without mes effects) .

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In a team enviornment, Assassins get help from the team as well. Why is it you're assuming the Assassin does everything solo in a team environment?

We mean a warrior has a much better chance of getting past a monk, and can survive though more mitigation, and can generally overextend for the monk kill much more safetly then an assassin could, and keep in their midlines without stressing your own monks that much, unlike an assassin. In a team game the warrior is much better, in a 1v1, typical gvg assassin vs say, typical gvg shock axe, the sin might win.

LaserLight · Jun 29, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Why are we even talking about Assassins vs. Warriors again?

Notice that, at least in most GvG matches I've observed with competent Assassins in them (and even the ones with incompetent Assassins in them), the Assassin doesn't replace one of the team's Warriors, it replaces one of the standard squishes. Typically a Necromancer. Therefore, we shouldn't be talking about the Assassin's utility as a Warrior replacement, but its utility as a replacement for one of the supporting squishes pre-Factions teams played. I am, ofcourse, talking about the standard balanced team and not a specialty thing like FC Air or Soul Barbs.

In that situation, you start to see why the Assassin does what it does. Team squishies, aside from Monks, are basically there as battle modifiers. The actual fight is down to Warriors and Monks - the role of a team's casters is to add and subtract modifiers from the battle at hand, to push for advantage. Water snare Els add a modifier allowing your Warriors to catch their guys easier, Dom Mesmers add a modifier degrading the enemy Monks' performance, Hexmancers add various negative modifiers to the enemy. Cripshots and Windbornes work the flag, the single biggest modifier in a GvG match. In this situation, what does the Assassin do? What can it do to offer a suitable replacement for the favorable modifiers a caster would bring?

Simple. It plays merry living hell with an enemy's base. An Assassin in your base is a Big Fat Bad, especially as said Assassin can usually fairly easily overwhelm a lone runner coming back for the flag. That Assassin will strip away a team's NPCs, destroying a non-renewable resource, and will delay and possibly even halt altogether the flagrunner's flow to and from the stand. With its mobility, an Assassin is also damnably hard to flush without devoting a substantial amount of resources to the job - I've seen an Assassin, trapped via slain Thief in her enemy's base, dodge the entire enemy team long enough for the Thief to revive and her Guild to come back and rescue her. She even got another Archer on the way out. No Warrior could survive that sort of encounter. It may take out a few enemies on the way down, add some more DP, but it'd be dead on the ground pretty quick.

When taken out of the Assassin vs. Warrior equation, the class represents ahighly mobile, independant damage dealer that can raise hell for an enemy at home, or can easily swing back to the flagstand and apply his damage there. Because I don't happen to see anyone in this thread saying that an Assassin can't out-damage, say, a Necromancer or a Mesmer. Whatever squishy the Assassin replaces, it likely outdamages by a good factor of five, since the things are roughly (roughly, mind) equivalent in damage output to a Warrior.

Think of Assassins as comparable to a supporting squishy, not comparable to a Warrior, and you'll suddenly see them in a much more favorable light.

Phades · Jun 29, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Still, its not a good comparison when you bring up either favored flag runner who frequents the base vs a solo assassin. A flashbot will stop the npc ganking, while a cripshot ranger will contain the assassin with some build options to shut it down as well.

I think the real argument would be if they are worthwhile to run in order to avoid forcing a split of the main group to achieve a similar npc advantage or force a possible disadvantage within the opposing force.

Jagan Vastary · Jun 30, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

So really, in a situation you're describing, the Warrior has to have support from a monk - IOW, you're describing a 2 on 1 scenario. But this statement is a double edge sword. The Assassin will have monks and other teammates to back them up as well. You're acting like part of the Warrior's inherent abilities are the supporting Monk's healing/protection, while leaving the Assassin alone...

I never meant to imply that. Both the assassin and warrior would have similar support systems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

In a team enviornment, Assassins get help from the team as well. Why is it you're assuming the Assassin does everything solo in a team environment?

In a team spike, a warrior is superior to an assassin because he can compress his spikes while the assassin cannot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Why are we even talking about Assassins vs. Warriors again?

They are both pretty much solely damage characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Simple. It plays merry living hell with an enemy's base. An Assassin in your base is a Big Fat Bad, especially as said Assassin can usually fairly easily overwhelm a lone runner coming back for the flag.

I think my main problem with the assassin as a base attack is that an illusion mesmer can do the same job that the assassin can, and an illusion mesmer also avoids typical disadvantages when fighting another teams flagger, which is usually a water or an air E/Mo. The downside of the illusion mesmer is that it is slightly easier to take one out because of slightly lower armor and it doesn't have an assassins movement abilities. The illusion mesmer can also provide a lot of assistance in a team environment, more than an assassin with an incredibly slow spike in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

When taken out of the Assassin vs. Warrior equation, the class represents ahighly mobile, independant damage dealer that can raise hell for an enemy at home, or can easily swing back to the flagstand and apply his damage there. Because I don't happen to see anyone in this thread saying that an Assassin can't out-damage, say, a Necromancer or a Mesmer.

I would say that a typical mesmer will do more "damage" to the enemy team in the form of everything-hate.

Also, a necromancer could outdamage an assassin, I suppose, if you are running disease. But that's not really a fair comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Think of Assassins as comparable to a supporting squishy, not comparable to a Warrior, and you'll suddenly see them in a much more favorable light.

Why? If I have a spot that I want a supporting character in, I can't put an assassin there. If I have a spot where I want a damage dealer, I can't put an assassin there when a warrior is better. If I want something that can solo a base, I might choose an assassin.