Curse

Rikimaru · Jun 28, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

I Think (and hope) that some warrior and most assassin elites will get a small buff. I Hope they reduce the reset on Hundred Blades to around 5.

I'm not sure what they might nerf... I'd say the obvious one, Touch rangers, but they've said they don't believe they're over-powered. Even thoguh they so blatantly are... Has anyone here ever won against a team of Touch Rangers? Any time the Luxons take a lot of Touch Rangers in AB, the Kurzicks get completely slaughtered. That's probably true for either side, but the Luxons have a hell of a lot more of them.

Thom · Jun 28, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I stand corrected on AoE and smiting. Clearly the smiting testing was not complete enough. The build takes about two minutes to figure out once AoE and smiting are mentioned in the same sentence. I feel that the primary goal was to give monks an energy manage elite, so the whole thing is a bit of a double failure: No one uses it for monk energy management while people are abusing the skill on smiters.

I was running a fairly casual AB team and we were making Touch rangers cry. I was on a cripper and my brothers were both playing degen/shutdown builds. Touch rangers are an incredibly noobish build which is regularly owned by degen, spikes, snares or proper kiting. Touch rangers are a wonderful noob filter to teach people how to play the game.

The only place it is a bit silly is in AB's where lone touch rangers are soloing points. You can still win with a proper build even if it means sending a cripper or mez to solo touch necros stealing points.

Apok Omen · Jun 28, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Wow, I just noticed this thread. Looks like there is tons of cries for help to ANet going on here. I am pleased.

Anyway, my turn:

Nerfs:

Soul Barbs: For 30 seconds, whenever target foe is hexed with a Curses Hex or is enchanted, they take 8-32 damage
Allows it to be used less often, a bit overnerfed for the first part, but higher damage should take care of that.

Recurring Insecurity:For 10 seconds, hexed foe gains a health degeneration of 1-3. This hex is renewed and adds -1 health degeneration whenever hexed foe recieves 2 more hexes
''Reapplying'' is, imo, a misstype. It recieved a minor buff, however, of the new amount of degen every 2 hexes.

Air of Enchantment:For 4...10 seconds, Enchantments casted on target other ally cost 1 less energy
Yeah, that should be good. 5 less energy was too overpowered, imo. Making the duration longer should be a balance.

Zealots Fire: For 5-17 seconds, whenever target ally is the target of spells, foes adjacent to target ally take 8-32 fire damage. Recharge: 60 seconds
There we go; an attributal duration, same damage, I believe, and a higher recharge. Say good bye to smite.

Expertise: Change part of the description to '' and certain RANGER skills'' instead of all skills. I'm pretty sure that is a bug, though.

Make it so that players cannot have both copies of skills in the same skillbar.

Buffs:

For ele DoT spells, change it so that the foes in the AoE take damage every two second (except for MS) and increase the damage each 2 seconds.

Cleave: 8 Adren. If Cleave hits, it strikes for +10...34 damage and struck foe is crippled and bleeding for 5...17 seconds
Honestly, this skill is weaker than Executioners Strike. It needed a damage buff desperately and need at least one condition, so its rly ANets call wether it should be crippling, or bleeding, or both.

Buff assassins in general. At the very least, give them +5 base armor. And minor buff the suckiest elites they have(and by that I mean all but AoD)

Thats all I can think of as of now (im rly tired now)

yesitsrob · Jun 28, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

All touch rangers are good at is beating scrubs, harsh truth. They are somewhat self sufficient and avoid a lot of prot with their life steal skills, but they aren't dominating the metagame and if you're facing a team using them in gvg it's largely free rating >_>.... they do well in alliance battles for reasons explained in the first sentance of my post

kryshnysh · Jun 28, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Say good bye to smite.

The only build I wouldn't mind them overnerfing is RB/SI, and even that, I don't think should be nerfed into oblivion. All of the builds should be left viable, just a bit weaker. Saying good bye to a build is way too much nerfage for my tastes.

remmeh · Jun 28, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

The only thing I agree to is to have Recurring Insecurity moved to the top of the hex stack every time it renews. Every other nerf mentioned in this thread would make said skills useless.

Drewfense · Jun 28, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

If you get beaten by touch rangers it is your own fault. People dont like touch rangers because their wammo with mending is no longer enough to solo a single enemy type. They do not need a nerf. This is coming from someone who has rarely ever seen a death from touch rangers despite playing countless in RA, TA, HoH, alliance, and even once in GvG. Touch rangers = free faction if you have a half decent monk.

Lord Dark Genie · Jun 28, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Air of Enchantment:For 4...10 seconds, Enchantments casted on target other ally cost 1 less energy
Yeah, that should be good. 5 less energy was too overpowered, imo. Making the duration longer should be a balance.

Zealots Fire: For 5-17 seconds, whenever target ally is the target of spells, foes adjacent to target ally take 8-32 fire damage. Recharge: 60 seconds
There we go; an attributal duration, same damage, I believe, and a higher recharge. Say good bye to smite.

Just stop suggesting balance changes.

Zealot's is fine.
Your version of Air of Enchantment is completely worthless.

stueyman2099 · Jun 28, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Air of Enchantment:For 4...10 seconds, Enchantments casted on target other ally cost 1 less energy
Yeah, that should be good. 5 less energy was too overpowered, imo. Making the duration longer should be a balance.

This skill is completley worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Zealots Fire: For 5-17 seconds, whenever target ally is the target of spells, foes adjacent to target ally take 8-32 fire damage. Recharge: 60 seconds
There we go; an attributal duration, same damage, I believe, and a higher recharge. Say good bye to smite.

I'd prefer a game where you can have a number of choices to acomplish a task and have them all be viable. Taking smiting out of the game basicly promotes what we have going right now: SB/RI spike and Triple smite as the only viable builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Expertise: Change part of the description to '' and certain RANGER skills'' instead of all skills. I'm pretty sure that is a bug, though.

My problem with this is that it essentialy destroys Bunny Thumpers as well. Touch Rangers, as mentioned many many many many times are not overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Make it so that players cannot have both copies of skills in the same skillbar.

One has to wonder why they put the copies in the game in the first place if not to be able to run 2 copies. Not that I necesarily disagree mind you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Cleave: 8 Adren. If Cleave hits, it strikes for +10...34 damage and struck foe is crippled and bleeding for 5...17 seconds
Honestly, this skill is weaker than Executioners Strike. It needed a damage buff desperately and need at least one condition, so its rly ANets call wether it should be crippling, or bleeding, or both.

While I like the idea of adding a condition to the skill, the 8 adrenaline cost makes it retarded because as you have it lined out, it sucks HARD vs. Eviscerate. Maybe for a 4~6 adren cost and add some kind of condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

And minor buff the suckiest elites they have(and by that I mean all but AoD)

Mostly agree, though there are a couple decent ones that aren't run because people ussualy want an assassain as a gank force, making AoD the obvious elite of choice.

Thom · Jun 28, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Please Anet disregard everything Apok Omen said. Expertise is fine and makes the game interesting. Doubles make the game intersting and nice buff weak and "standard" skills through a natural synergy. Smite is a nice strategy, but AoE makes is over powered. Strategies should be nerfed not completely removed through the nerf.

The Real Roy Keane · Jun 28, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

WTF lol...did I misread this? Those skills are some of the best and most commonly used skills in the game already... Ineptitude is a heavy warrior hate. Crippling Shot rangers are still decent although I prefer a water ele runner. Never been a fan of OoB on a boon prot, even before the nerf, but now it is still a viable form of energy management on hex necros. Back when I was a pve-er I would always include a Arcane Echo + E Surge on the mezmers bar in FoW for a quick 160 AoE. In PvP, surge mezmers still owns most monks. Distortion still is the best way to protect a Mo/Me heal monk and mezmers. Blackout owns adrenaline spikes. Gale is perfect for stopping heals during a spike or for spike teams with projectiles (FC air). I just have not the slightest clue where you are coming from saying that these skills have to be made better. I think they are very well balanced right now.

I was joking when I mentioned Gale,Blackout,Cripshot et al;they were overpowered skills that were tweaked to a weakened-but-still-very-useful- level. Does noone have any sense of irony these days

I still stand by my comments on Ineptitude though- I just don't like it.

Quote:

Clearly you didn't bother to read my entire post.

I did, but it didn't make much sense: You basically said 'Touch Rangers are easy to handle, nerf them now.' If you have no problem dealing with them, they're fine as they are.

Ensign · Jun 28, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

You know, I don't think a nerf to the touch ranger would be a bad thing at all.

For a top 5% player, touch rangers aren't a problem. You know how to kite, snare them, disable and blast. They're a very basic template with no tricks, and because of that they aren't all that dangerous to a good player.

If you get over that and start looking at the game as a whole, touch rangers are an extremely frustrating template to play against for a huge portion of the GW PvP population. They only have one trick, but it's a strong one - moderate to large amounts of lifesteal - and there aren't a lot of natural counters to the strategy. The character takes very little skill to play effectively, they c+space and spam 2-3 skills over and over until someone dies. It's not a trivial character to kill between the heals and stances.

It's basically extremely frustrating for any new or mediocre player, because they're going to lose to it more often than not no matter how bad the toucher is. A skill test that might make them get better? Sure. But not everyone is going to reach a high level of play and they should still be able to have some fun playing the game.

You can only balance around the highest levels of play, but it might be a good idea to look out for the little guy and make sure that nothing is keeping the game from being fun for them, either.

Peace,
-CxE

Divineshadows · Jun 28, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You can only balance around the highest levels of play, but it might be a good idea to look out for the little guy and make sure that nothing is keeping the game from being fun for them, either.

Whoa; not the view I would I expect to hear from you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A skill test that might make them get better? Sure. But not everyone is going to reach a high level of play and they should still be able to have some fun playing the game.

Indeed. The players destined to become better will improve their play and learn how to play against the toucher no matter what their team build is. Unfortunately, the majority of players that get beat down by this template will look at it as strong and take the "If you can't beat them, join them" attitude.

neoflame · Jun 28, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

I predict a change to AoE (either increased energy cost or recharge time, or that "minimum energy" clause), a change to RI (most likely ANet will just break its interaction with SB, knocking the former into obscurity for several months), and the recharge on Vamp Touch/Bite to be doubled.

Thom · Jun 28, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Grumble, grumble. As much as I hate to admit it, Ensign is probably right. Sad thing is that people actually believe touch rangers are in some way uber.

Ensign · Jun 29, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Whoa; not the view I would I expect to hear from you.

It isn't healthy to live in your own little world. The competitive PvP in this game that I love at times depends entirely upon a healthy casual PvP environment for survival - they wouldn't be holding a World Championship if people weren't interested in playing. The gaming population is a pyramid - lots of really bad new and casual players at the bottom, an elite at the top - and there needs to be health at every level for the game to survive. If brand new players get disgusted and quit before they can even start to figure out the game, the whole game starts to die.

A template like the touch ranger might not have any effect on the very top, but from what I can tell it is doing a lot to make Guild Wars not fun for a huge segment of the population. The game not being fun is something that I'd think to be a concern for any sort of game maker, competitive or not.

Peace,
-CxE

Symbol · Jun 29, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I actually think a better solution is to rework the party formation interface. If you could quickly and easily form groups with the composition you're looking for, touchers would be much less of a problem. Right now forming a non-random group is just painful unless you're in a guild that PvPs regularly.

I'd love it if there was some sort of UI where you could request specific builds for your group. This would also allow newer players to see what skills/builds are in demand and change their builds accordingly.

Gizmo Loco · Jun 29, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Whiel I totally agree that SB/RI needs a nerf, I think making RI so that it simply restarts its duration makes it worthless: The idea that this ksill gave me is that its a perma cover hex. As sson as you have put on your hex, it is immediately covered, with a bit of degen thrown in. I'd liek to see SB/RI nerfed in another way, because I liek this skill as it is in general use outwith SB/RI. However from the top of my head I'm not entirely sure how else you would nerf it.

As for AoE, I think making AoE 10 Energy, cannot go below 1 is a good idea, perhaps with a slight less damage on Zealots shold be enough to stop it from being overpowered - but still viable.

On the buff side, I would like to see Assassin Deadly arts skills, especially the ones where they are spells which cause damage and count as a lead attack given more use. Perhaps also a buff to Rit healing skills. A few Warrior elites buffed up a bit, like making Hundred Blades either a reduced recharge or + damage on hit. Also Whirling Axe needs to be made a bit extra damage, as in comparison to Cleave it is useless, and Cleave needs a buff itself. And I also saw somewhere in this topic a suggestion of making Heal As One ress your pet, which I think is a great idea.

romO · Jun 29, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Soul barbs and Recurring Insecurity were meant to have synergy and work well with one another. However, the entire idea behind it was not to create a build with two copies of each and use that combination as the only useful part of the build through a spike. I would like to see this combo as a viable part of a hex build, as it is additional pressure and constant dps, yet have the spike aspect eliminated. How to do this, I'll admit, I have no idea. If getting rid of the synergy completely by making soul barbs not trigger on reapplication is the only thing to do, then I would rather have it go because I don't think the ladder can stand any more of it. Nerfing the damage on soul barbs will wipe it out of existance, and it really is a great addition to any hex spam build, so that would be a shame as well.

Also, about AoE, it is a protection prayers skill. Not a smiting skill. Making it any more energy would eliminate it from the thought of any prot monk because the energy costs would almost balance out. Not that it is seeing great use as it is, but I would like to see the skill brought over to its intended use rather than to revive an old build. A change is necessary, a nerf is not. I would actually like to see some kind of a buff. That would lead one to the conclusion that I see the problem with the smiting skills, namely zealot's fire. I never have considered ZF a major problem in the past, but since the introducion of AoE, it is just massive damage for 10 energy every 60 seconds. Thus, if ZF would work like divine boon, with an additional energy cost every time a spell is cast on an ally, it may eliminate the problem that many see with AoE giving infinite and unrestricted energy, and AoE might be able to make its way into being seen as a viable elite for prot monks and boon prots.

Lord Dark Genie · Jun 29, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

How is ZF damage massive ?
Isn't the DPS somewhere around 37 per target ?