Curse

art_ · Jul 12, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

You do know that Ensign isn't god, right?

JR · Jul 12, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

You do know that Ensign isn't god, right?

Don't be ridiculous.

Lord Dark Genie · Jul 12, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryn Rand

15+10+5+10+10+5+15=75 energy.

This sounds more like an ele bar if you ask me. A monk needs more energy managment and energy managment means among other things less costly spells.

That's like completely flawed... No one asks someone to spam all 8 skills all the time. No one cares what the total energy cost of all your skills is.

Quote:

3 seconds is alloot of time to kill stiff wjem tje monk is standint there doing nothing. And its wrong that the infuser dosent have to do anything but in spike. He also infuses against adrenaline spikes osv. Helping out to generaly heal is also one his task.

Again, that's not really relevant. Nothing prevents you from cancelling the rez and just heal away. Against pure spike, you have ALWAYS enough time to rez and prepare for the next spike. I can't think of a spike that kills 2 targets within 4 seconds.

Aryn Rand · Jul 13, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

So if you face anything but a pure spike the infuse just stays there on your bar doing nothing?

Keeping the ghostly alive in profane or keepign a player up when IWAY got OoA up.
Infuse is a massiv instant(1/4) second heal. It cant be spammed but with a good word monk it can be used for aloot more than just infusing pure spikes.

It dosent seem like anyone has ever monked here? That monk bar is way to exspensiv and you should be able to use your skills consistenly and not just every 30 seconds.
Great you can heal massevly for 10 seconds then you have to have a cooldown. That only works against pure slow spikes. When you go up against a team hitting you with consistent high damage. Star burst eles or smite for 1 thing. Your screwed.

Your energy regen cant keep up with that kind of energy usage. Even with a blood rit you will have trouble.
Try that bar in HA, see how much it can heal....before your out of energy and usless.

When ever a monk resses I let him keep doing it because it means he wont be doing any healing. Plenty of time to shock and the spike another monk. I might even have enough time to go back to the monk and interupt him again with distracting blow.

A 2 warrior build wich uses the evisc+exec+furious axe can spike very fast. A monk ressing is worth anything but a monk that heals keeps your team alive.

kryshnysh · Jul 13, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryn Rand

It dosent seem like anyone has ever monked here?

I'm weighting mostly to present this link on logical fallacies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I've tried similar bars to the one Byron gave in HA (with a rez sig on the infuser) and gone plenty far. Proper use requires everyone to know your team build, not just an individual build. If you want to PuG in a balanced group, throwing together cookie-cutter builds may be good, but if you build your entire team build, Vindexus' statement still holds true:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Res sigs are fine on a monk, just as they are fine on any other character. The problem is that monks' skill bars tend to fill up more quickly than other characters, which is why you rarely see res sigs on monks. It all depends on the team build.

I would also note that the above quote implies not just a monk who knows what they're doing, but the entire team knowing how and when to kite, how to react to when a rez sig is used by a monk, and in general a lot of knowledge I don't find plentiful in HA PuGs.

Divineshadows · Jul 13, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryn Rand

Keeping the ghostly alive in profane or keepign a player up when IWAY got OoA up.
Infuse is a massiv instant(1/4) second heal. It cant be spammed but with a good word monk it can be used for aloot more than just infusing pure spikes.

While it is true that infuse health is useful in desparate situations against non pure spike teams, I would use it very sparingly against IWAY. The whole point of IWAY is a pressure build, so try to avoid adding additional pressure to your team by using infuse. Strong kiting and heal party is a much more efficient method for dealing with IWAY. Only if you see 2, 3, or 4 warriors going for an adrenal spike on a single player would I even consider using infuse.

On the topic of monks using rez signet in HA, I view it as perfectly fine in certain team builds. However, the type of team build that would require it is not typical of HA.

Conan The Castrater · Jul 18, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

I'm amazed and also somewhat impressed.

What started as a drunken ramble due to the confusion under intoxication a nub r-spike guild gave me (ie all are rangers at heart, some of them must have drawn the short straw to play the monks), turned into a 1300+ and counting viewed thread.

Of sober mind, let me state, it is my opinion (and always has been) monks shouldnt be carrying a res (I have played infuser for 75% of my games, almost rank 7, let me reiterate again, I was extremely drunk when I made the original post

). Firstly, as some other people have covered every skill in the standard bars will save your ass in 1 out of every 5 matches at the very least. Energy is at a premium and each heal or utility affords you the chance to make maximum use of it (sure you dont need any examples for this). Was almost going to go into every bar but cant be arsed unless someone puts up a good argument for me.

Secondly, some people point the infuser can res in betwen a spike. And what happens when your not facing a spike? You really want to take a monk out of the picture for 3 seconds to res, when undoubtedly if 1 guy has gone down another could soon follow? As to the others carrying a res, only ideal conditions would allow them to res up without adding an element of risk to your chances of other team members staying up.

FInally, although extra resses are nice, it is only going to be in extremely even matched competition. Reason being that in the majority of matches once you hit the 5 res mark, there is already a vast of amount of pressure on your team with deaths or low health that 1-3 extra resses are not going to make much difference, moreso if your taking monks out of the picture as well as gimping them with the loss of a very important skill against certain teams.

shardfenix · Jul 18, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

2 reasons? wrong. Monks don't bring res for just 1 reason. Here it is:

For every second you spend to res someone, someone else dies.

Byron · Jul 18, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan the Castrater

And what happens when your not facing a spike? You really want to take a monk out of the picture for 3 seconds to res, when undoubtedly if 1 guy has gone down another could soon follow?

Much like the monk position, it would require reflexes and awareness. And, have you ever tried holding down Q or E while in the middle of a signet? It's pretty nifty, I assure you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

For every second you spend to res someone, someone else dies.

Few people complain about an aegis or healing seed, each of which are 2-second casts. Obviously, a monk wouldn't res unless it were safe and proper to do so.

Conan The Castrater · Jul 18, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Much like the monk position, it would require reflexes and awareness. And, have you ever tried holding down Q or E while in the middle of a signet? It's pretty nifty, I assure you

Few people complain about an aegis or healing seed, each of which are 2-second casts. Obviously, a monk wouldn't res unless it were safe and proper to do so.

Which is kind of my point. In most situations when you come to rely on 6th and higher resses you are already under serious pressure, there is no 'safe and proper' moment at that point. The only time when there will be a lack of this pressure is in very evenly matches competition and the opposition has lost as many guys as yourself or if the opposition isnt adding any pressure damage in between spikes.

Its all a matter of opinion, at the moment, from what my crappy memory remembers this is the situation once you hit the 5 res mark in most scenarios. To validate the use of a res your going to have to be of the opinion that in a decent number of matches there isnt that much pressure on you at the 5-res point.

Slit Wrists · Jul 18, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I may as well:

Res sig infuser

11+1+2 divine favor
11+1+2 healing prayers
8 inspiration magic

Spellbreaker {e}
Infuse health
Healing touch
Heal other
Healing seed
Inspired hex
*Holy veil, Convert hexes, heal party
Resurrection signet

*build variant (eg, dual smite wouldn't need a convert)

I give you an example :

You face some kind of spike. You're the last one with a res sig ? Would you res even if when you res someone will be spiked ?
And anyway, if you can't infuse a decent spike , your team is screwed.

If i had to bring res on a monk, it would be on the woh healer

Vindexus · Jul 18, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

You do know that Ensign isn't god, right?

I don't follow; please elaborate.

Byron · Jul 19, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan The Castrater

In most situations when you come to rely on 6th and higher resses you are already under serious pressure, there is no 'safe and proper' moment at that point.

A very good point, but if there is a situation where one softie gets killed 3-4 times and thus burns 3-4 sigs, that extra sig could make a huge difference down the road, especially when ressing another monk. Not all deaths come one right after the other. It is definitely a matter of opinion, though. That said, I think its improprer to flame a monk with a res sig until it is proven that he/she is awful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slit Wrists

You face some kind of spike. You're the last one with a res sig ? Would you res even if when you res someone will be spiked ?

As said previously, no spike recharges in under 5 seconds. It would take reflexes and awareness to pull off, but the reward could be worth it.

madman420 · Jul 19, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I can't believe this thread is still going. The OP's question was answered correctly on the first page. A monk in HA almost always has to have a full bar of 8 skills to do his job. Personally, I don't care about the "3 secs ressing is 3 secs not healing/protecting" argument. It all boils down to that one skill you have to leave out of your bar simply because your team can't properly manage the 5 or 6 res's that they do have coupled with killing the enemy ghostly to recharge all of the res's. If you play properly you should have at least 10 res's and monks with fully equipped skill bars. If you can't win with that then you weren't going to win with res's on your monks anyway.

Byron · Jul 19, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by madman420

Personally, I don't care about the "3 secs ressing is 3 secs not healing/protecting" argument.

Alt-F4.

madman420 · Jul 19, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Alt-F4.

Ok... Explain

Slit Wrists · Jul 19, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

As said previously, no spike recharges in under 5 seconds. It would take reflexes and awareness to pull off, but the reward could be worth it.

Word of censure spike does recharge under 5 sec. I agree it4s not played much.

Well you might have time to res, but you'll have to be extremely fast in ressing in extremely focused on infusing when you're done ressing.

Guinea Fig · Jul 19, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

It boils down to: usually the monk bars are too important to be messed around with.

But in certain builds I'm sure you can pull it off. Some builds such as spirit spamming ranger can be just as tight on skills as monks. If you still want 5 sigs but dropping it on the spirit spammer... you might be able to fit it on one of the monks. You can heal pretty well in tombs with just orison and other.

Although I do find Byron's bar a bit laughable. I remember the post where Ensign lectured the benefits of heal other and I agree with it. It is one of the most cost efficient direct heals in the game. But, it was taken out of context here. I think even Ensign had another small heal on his bar for GvG.

For tombs, you are going to overheal a lot of with heal other as your only heal. Running heal other without e-management (even channeling) seems a little odd. Orison, as bad of a heal as it is in energy efficiency, gives you an easy spam option when you need people topped off. More importantly, it recharges fast and can be used as a self heal as you kite. Healing touch has a bit too long of a recharge and doesn't have half as much utility as orison.

And channeling... yes HA has horrible positioning. You WILL find warriors training on you for long periods of time. You WILL have cases of Elementalists literally running up to you to cast. You WILL be able to channel off of their monks quite consistently. HA builds tend to have a lot of defense (3 specialised healers/prot + wards etc) and the opposing team will overextend all day long because they can.

My point is if you are going to play HA, then the face the fact that you WILL be stuck in this type of environment. Is it flawed... yes. But if you plan playing there... bring channeling. Don't try and be all high and mighty with GvG backline/frontline concepts that don't really even exist (you said this yourself) outside of IWAY spammers. Make sure your build reflect this.

BrutusV · Jul 19, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryn Rand

Spellbreaker
Infuse healt
orison of health
dwaynas kiss//holy veil
Healing Seed
Heal party
Inspired hex
Channeling

Granted I'm a beginner monk for HA but I've never seen an infuser with just one self heal and it's not healing touch

DVDumah · Jul 19, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

You don't need that much self-heal with a 3 monk backline.