Curse

Seef II · May 12, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Part of the problem is that the deep wound comes three attacks in as opposed to two with sever-gash or backbreaker-crushing. One more second's a lot of time in a combined pressure spike. May work well in arenas though.

Tainek · May 12, 2006, 08:58 AM // 08:58

One other thing to mention is the serious warrior hate from the spirit "soothing"

20 hits with a hammer to build 10 adrenaline?

ghostof · May 12, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I think hammers need dazed over weakness and change weaknesses name to sickness.

I think weakness is a wierd description for what happens when strike by a blunt object swung by a gorilla of a man/women.

Necros apply weakness with ease. What part of a necro makes me feel weaker? (the act of lossing strength?) Being sick makes me physically weaker. Much like diseased or poisoned being sick seems like weakness in game. A sickness isn't fatal so change the name to sickness and give hammers daze.

Dazed would justify the lose of an off-hand shield or artifact. I dont know if more dps is going to change it.

I love swords and the wtfjustpwndme final thrust but 2 shock axes working together seems to be superior due to the deep wound of both with single hit.

I happen to agree that evisercate has slightly over-powered the axe.

My real complaint though is assassins are insanely soft. Those cats need loving before touching warriors. For a damage spike they rely on alot of other things going right.

Just my thoughts.

BLODORN · May 12, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I don't know how balanced it would be, but dazed isntead of weakness sure sounds fun.

Da Cebuano · May 14, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

My combo atm is goes as this:

Devastating->crushing->fierce blow->Bullstrike/hammerbash/heavyblow/protector strike/irresistable/yeti smash(AoE dmg FTW)

Really all I run w/ hammer nowadays, too good of a combo to pass up, I could go back breaker and keep them on their ass longer, but takes longer to recharge and I sacrifice DPS.

I like forceful blow but I don't like the fact that it doesn't cause KD on hit, its alot of dmg but KD is what makes hammers worth it, otherwise Swords and axes are more convenient being faster attack w/ ability to equip shields.

Personally I think giving up shields on a warr is alot to think about, thats why I am always gonna stick to my opinion of Hammer upgrades needs to be a bit more buffed than other weapons, sounds unfair, but when you have to go to the frontlines, knowing you have 16armor less 30hp less and giving up dmg buff bonuses.... well you get the point.

ALso, A blunt dmg is more likely gonna cause internal hemorrhage, so I dont see why hammers aren't condition spammers. I blunt trauma will daze and weaken you very very easily, and the force of an anvil can easily cause internal bleeding and mortal wounds. Hammers should be THE condition spammers, not axes or swords, that I will never get really. Also, why the much slower atk rate(understandable cause hammers will be much heavier) but balance wise, personally I think hammers could use a buff, I use hammers and I know they're quite capable and never really that underwhelmed by axes and swords, but I just feel a buff is necessary.

Byron · May 15, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Earlier in the thread we already suggested a condition change, considering deep wound capability is highly conditional with crushing blow. But dazed... that would be way too overpowered. Bleeding would probably be the best "fix" (Considering weakness is next to useless coming from a warrior). But in general, hammer needs no fix, because it provides a boatload of the most effective condition: Knockdown.

That doesn't change the status of King Eviscerate.

Da Cebuano · May 16, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Knockdown w/ hammer is somewhat overrated cause you can cause knockdowns w/ others as well and if used timely, all the KD you'll ever need.

KD skills on hammers lose all your adren, meaning that once you use em, you'll have to rebuild yourself using very slow hammer attacks. The elites dont use all adren but they cost alot to use, overall I think the status of KDs are kinda overblown in the forums, they are great, but personally I dont think they fully cover the hammer's downsides.

AhuraMazda · May 16, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

The new hammer skills in factions have added vastly more to a hammer warrior arsenal.

Forceful blow - Fierce Blow combo, 5 adren then 6 adren, +42 damage each.

These two skills are brutal, smacking warriors for around 70-80 damage easilly.

Iv never seen a critical hit with one of these skills on AL 60, but even so I have seen well above 130 damage. Per skill.

Im running Frenzy - Forceful blow - fierce blow + others atm, and it does extreme damage.

Other skills such as renewing smash, auspicious blow now give the PvE/RA hammer warrior much more defencive options and staying power, warrior skills only in consideration.

If I want to be less monk dependant and self sufficient, yet still dangerous I will go axe.

If I have a rock solid monk and a good team, Ill go hammer.

King Evisc has been ursurped by Forceful + Fierce, tis true. And you can still use a knockdown, hammer bash or heavy blow.

BLODORN · May 16, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

King Evisc has been ursurped by Forceful + Fierce, tis true.

Huh? Where's Deep Wound? And, that's two skills you're saying beat one?

Kyune · May 16, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I've been going an alternate route with my Hammer Warrior, using Tactics as
the primary focus for damage skill bonuses.

"Main" Combo: Shove->Crushing Blow->Thrill of Victory->Desperate Blow.
Other skills: Sprint, Frenzy, Heal Sig, Res Sig.

It's a bit sickeningly energy heavy for GvG use, but if you can catch someone offguard you can finish them in just a couple short seconds.

Byron · May 17, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

King Evisc has been ursurped by Forceful + Fierce, tis true. And you can still use a knockdown, hammer bash or heavy blow.

I only wish that were so.

Even used to maximum effect, weakness-reliant hammer chains have too many drawbacks to become number one on any smart warrior's list, IMHO. E-props for using "usurped" though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Cebuano

Knockdown w/ hammer is somewhat overrated cause you can cause knockdowns w/ others as well and if used timely, all the KD you'll ever need.

I suppose you're referring to shock and/or bull's strike and/or bull's charge. While those skills have their uses, their use is best exercised as a snare. The damage dealt pre-KD with those attacks isn't anywhere near hammer-enforced KD. Even packing an air focus and 9 ranks in air magic, I think it would be fool hardy to expect continuous and effective KD from anything but a hammer warrior.

In another thread (Factions Skills and PvP Evolution):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Knockdowns are so much more valuable than damage additions that they aren't even in the same league. A knockdown is a perfect mes effect, not only can they not cast to save themselves, but they can't try and kite either. As a warrior, you don't just hold him in place to beat on, you hold him in place for the other warriors as well. The amount of damage that you get out of a single, well placed knockdown is in the hundreds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyune

I've been going an alternate route with my Hammer Warrior, using Tactics as the primary focus for damage skill bonuses.

"Main" Combo: Shove->Crushing Blow->Thrill of Victory->Desperate Blow.

Would be somewhat interesting if not for several problems:

Hammer master increases damage and chance for a crtical hit. If you want your warrior to be at the highest level of offensive power, 12+1+3 in hammer mastery is needed.

Low strength means lousy speed buffs and little inherent armor penetration.

Shove is... garbage. As long as bull's strike is around, Shove has no place on my warrior's skillbar; I wouldn't take it even if it weren't elite.

So say you spec the warrior properly (16 hammer, 10+1 tactics, 8+1 str or some such): you would likely do just as much damage with a Devestating->Crushing->Irresistible. Not to mention big-time utility in Irresistible, and also skillbar-room for sprint/rush.

AhuraMazda · May 17, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Explain how a 5 and 6 adrenaline cost duel +42 hammer attack can now be outspiked by any warrior combo?

Hammer bash + crushing blow if you want to get pendantic, but there is no need. Just add good support to that adren spike and your target is dead.

The weakness is secondary, infact its non-existant, the only benefit is it allows you to follow up with the second hit, and is much LESS likely to have the monk reaching for CoP or some other condition removal when he sees it. Which is his loss.

Forceful Blow - Fierce Blow is the biggest damage strikes I have seen from a warrior in my time playing them, apart from lucky crit Final Thrust.

Infact when you consider that the adrenaline cost for the two skills is 1 more than for Final Thrust, I think its probably time to go compare the difference between the duel hammer and the lone sword attacks in damage.

Axe has now been demoted, by a mile. You could use Evisc and Executioners and it wont get near Feirce and Forceful, and it wont recharge as fast either, and it will have monk emergancy hitting remove condition.

Greedy Gus · May 18, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I like forceful and fierce for pressure DPS and spike assist. They both average right around 100 damage against a 60AL target. Do they make axe old news? Of course not. Eviscerate and executioners average around 80 damage each against 60AL, but also get the deep wound for another ~100 damage on spike.

SaintGreg · May 19, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Forceful Blow - Fierce Blow is the biggest damage strikes I have seen from a warrior in my time playing them, apart from lucky crit Final Thrust.

To a dummy, maybe. You have no knockdown, and no deep wound. You may see alot of damage, but the enemy certainly doesn't. And final thrust still does more damage than fierce blow if they are under 50% health, quite a bit more as far as single attacks are concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

You could use Evisc and Executioners and it wont get near Feirce and Forceful

Correct on that one. Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike won't get near Forceful Blow + Fierce Blow because the axe combo does a lot more damage in a smaller time frame because of the deep wound.

A no-KD hammer build might be nice for spike assist, but it isn't as good as an axe is for that purpose. You take hammer for the knockdown spike, not because it does alot of large yellow numbers.

Byron · May 19, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Explain how a 5 and 6 adrenaline cost duel +42 hammer attack can now be outspiked by any warrior combo?

I suppose if you're beating on target dummies, then your argument holds some weight. The real strengths of a warrior spike are knockdown and deep wound; if all you want is max damage, then you would find better results with lightning orb or obsidian flame.

Assuming your target stays in one place, forceful->fierce does big damage, yes, but Eviscerate->Executioner's does less reliable big damage with a reliable deep wound. Deep wound in itself removes 20% of your target's health (anywhere from 80-110 hit points), so any warrior who doesn't utilize it as often as possible is not running at full offensive capability. Raw damage combos, such as the one you are suggesting, are better left to the faster weapons, ie axe and sword, who each have respective one-hit big-hurts (Eviscerate and final thrust).

And it goes without saying that any smart player won't stand still while a warrior beats on him. That's what knockdown is for.

I like the weakness reliant damage chains, just not the one you're promoting. Try forceful->heavy->Crushing for kicks, and i think you'll find the results much better. Or, one of my favorites, Devestating->Crushing->Fierce.

ghostof · May 22, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Byron try this for the Hammer Warriors relying on weakness I would like to see the results of a chain and how effective a W/N hammer could be.

Enfeebling touch (No way to avoid the weakness + Dmg) > Heavy Blow > Crushing Blow > Shove (+dmg)

Auspicious Blow, Sprint/Rush, Rez Sig, Heal Sig/Frenzy

Auspicious Blow to start KD chain 2 for energy management if necessary.

For pure testing do Enfeeble, ausp, heavy, crushing, shove.

The reason I like this idea is also the ability to simply apply a kd/deep wound while building adrenline for a spike of enfeeble, asup, heavy. Meaning to start combat I don't have to wait for adrenline to build up. I can start inflicting pain right away. With a reliable monk adding frenzy to do an immediate kd/deepwound frenzy. That is some early hammer pressure without adrenline.

What do you think?

Also in GvG spiking counting on the axe to deep wound the spike is kinda given. So you could apply early pressure with a quick kd/deep wound. charge adreline and spike with the axe enfeeble, ausp, heavy. Once the monk is up shove/Crushing figuring deep wound is going to get healed by the other boon prot to keep that pressure on.

AhuraMazda · May 22, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

No the Axe combo does not do ALOT more damage in a smaller frame of time, thats the point (off the top of my head my AXE crits ats 108 using executioners. Lets double that for Evisc aswell and add 100 pretending we have a 500HP monk, to be generous. thats 316 damage over two skills for Axe. For Hammer I have been getting consitant 136 ish strikes, so lets say a possible maximum is somewhere around 270, being conservative, thats about 50 HP difference, thats 20% or less extra damage thanks to deep wound), and the damage you do while not using adrenaline skills is incompareable.

I think maybe you guys watch alot of pvp, read alot of pvp, but dont perhaps play alot of pvp?

The power of the hammer has never been its knockdowns ALONE, although you may think this, like alot of those bunnythumpers, or Devestating combo spammers that have never heard of well timed bonettis, but I digress. You cant bank on deep wound getting you a spike kill, although its nice, but you can bank on extreme constant high damage depleting the opposing teams reserves of energy.

Or you lose.

Simply, this is what it means to play a warrior, this is the warriors strength, or you have never understood a warrior.

And as I said before, when it comes down to the actual *furious seconds* of the spike, that deep wound is going to be a glaring sign for immediate treatment. Its going to simply inform, say the monk, to heal or die in the coming few second, and he is going to be spamming his mates for help.

But in the pure, out-of-combat arena of the forums, yes these kinds of considerations are best overlooked.

And when you factor in TWO or more warriors, well then the entire issue becomes a complete and utter non-issue, as two deep wounds dont stack.

Infact, considering adrenaline cost, DPS/DOT, spike damage, healer actions etc. yes a single Evisc + Executioners may outdamage a single Forceful + Feirce, but only ever in that single skill versus skill comparison. In a comparison between axe and hammer beyond a single spike combo, the hammer will be the superior weapon, doing superior damage, except in ease of stacking conditions, and outside of direct damage comparison between two skills with nothing else considered.

If you run a single warrior, then yes the adrenaline spike will perhaps be greater. Throughout the rest of the fight, and the speed of recharging that adren spike, the Axe will become increasingly inferior in potency, in pressurising the opposing team, increasingly inferior in both Damage Over Time AND In Mean Spike Damage. If you run two or more warriors, spiking the same target, the axe is inferior during the spike, before the spike, and after the spike, and takes longer to recharge the spike.

But yeah, keep hauling out Dummy tested figures for axe, and accuse me of doing the same without combat knowledge.

Impressive stuff lads, cant wait to hear from you again. FotM, and age old forum knowledge for the lose.

ghostof · May 22, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

No the Axe combo does not do alot more damage in a smaller frame of time, thats the point, and the damage you do while not using adrenaline skills is incompareable.

I think maybe you guys watch alot of pvp, read alot of pvp, but dont perhaps play alot of pvp?

The power of the hammer has never been its knockdowns ALONE, although you may think this, like alot of those bunnythumpers, or Devestating combo spammers that have never heard of well timed bonettis, but I digress. You cant bank on deep wound getting you a spike kill, although its nice, but you can bank on extreme constant high damage depleting the opposing teams reserves of energy.

Or you lose.

Simply, this is what it means to play a warrior, or you have never played a warrior.

And as I said before, when it comes down to the actual *furious seconds* of the spike, that deep wound is going to be a glaring sign for immediate treatment. Its going to simply inform, say the monk, to heal or die in the coming few second, and he is going to be spamming his mates for help.

But in the pure, out-of-combat arena of the forums, yes these kinds of considerations are best overlooked.

And when you factor in TWO or more warriors, well then the entire issue becomes a complete and utter non-issue, as two deep wounds dont stack.

Infact, considering adrenaline cost, DPS, spike damage, healer actions etc. yes a single Evisc + Executioners may outdamage a single Forceful + Feirce, but only ever in that single skill versus skill comparison. In a comparison between axe and hammer beyond a single spike combo, the hammer is the superior weapon, except in ease of stacking conditions, and outside of direct damage comparison between two skills with nothing else considered.

But yeah, keep hauling out Dummy tested figures for axe, and accuse me of doing the same without combat knowledge.

Impressive stuff lads, cant wait to hear from you again.

The greatness of the axe adrenline spike is the beauty of immediate deep wound + dmg and the follow up. It is near undetectable. You may know its going to be coming but the warrior gets to choose when to apply it on the target and which one it will be against. I dont agree with the detectable deep wound statement since the spike done properly doesn't give away itself as you indicated.

The benefit of 2 warriors running this spike is spliting as well as 1 huge combined dps as deep wound is mathmatically going to get applied against a boon prot on most spikes. This spike is really hard on my boon prot without prot spirit and guardian up. It requires immediate energy to defend myself often requiring assistance from my other monk. This is ideally what you want as I still have to fend off mesmer hexes, e-denial, and keep the group alive. Reversal is gold here but hammers simply do not apply the same pressure as an axe unless they are flooring me. Even then there slower attack speed allows me to quick heal. Hammers are great dont get me wrong. Its just saying the kd in live isn't what makes them effective? Come on. Every axe I know takes a kd skill.

As for Bonetti's defense? What? Bonetti's defense in pvp? On a monk? U gotta be kidding right?

Maedhros · May 22, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Huh? Bah... I find axes perfectly fine with their nice combos and damage and their famous Eviscerate+Executioner's Strike combo. Though, I think that hammer is a good option also considering it has knockdown and some condition-reliant attacks, same as axe. Axe is faster, hammer slower but hammer do knockdown and axe do deep wound. Let's say, mister a against mister b. A has axe, b is someone else. a can recharge his adrenaline fast and then, he will unleash his combo on b but, b is running, it takes alot of time to hit a good kiter and, say, 1 monk healing him. Now let's say hammer. a is hammer, b is the kiter. Hammer will recharge slower adrenaline but, when it is recharged, it can knockdown b and then wham him. But monk is still there... I don't see the point of this thread.(Well i see it but...) Get whatever weapon suits you the best.

~Maedhros

AhuraMazda · May 22, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

The greatness of the axe adrenline spike is the beauty of immediate deep wound + dmg and the follow up. It is near undetectable. You may know its going to be coming but the warrior gets to choose when to apply it on the target and which one it will be against. I dont agree with the detectable deep wound statement since the spike done properly doesn't give away itself as you indicated.

The benefit of 2 warriors running this spike is spliting as well as 1 huge combined dps as deep wound is mathmatically going to get applied against a boon prot on most spikes. This spike is really hard on my boon prot without prot spirit and guardian up. It requires immediate energy to defend myself often requiring assistance from my other monk. This is ideally what you want as I still have to fend off mesmer hexes, e-denial, and keep the group alive. Reversal is gold here but hammers simply do not apply the same pressure as an axe unless they are flooring me. Even then there slower attack speed allows me to quick heal. Hammers are great dont get me wrong. Its just saying the kd in live isn't what makes them effective? Come on. Every axe I know takes a kd skill.

As for Bonetti's defense? What? Bonetti's defense in pvp? On a monk? U gotta be kidding right?

One huge combined DPS is less for axe than for hammers, reread my post, and point out where what I said is wrong.

You cant spam RoF fast enough to counter each swing of a frenzy hammer warrior, and even if you do, your not the target thats going to spiked are you?

As I explained above (which you simply ignored by saying that an axe does more damage) evisc and executioners does more damage than forceful and feirce. Except if there is more than one warrior, except when you consider the speed of the recharge of the spike.

And I also commented that outside of these skills the axe does not do more damage.

AND I also explained that the whole point behind the warrior is to pressure the enemy then kill, rather than kill to apply pressure.

You have said nothing more than "Axe does more damage"

I have pointed out this is true in one specific case only. In the direct comparison of a high adrenaline deep wound inflicting warrior elite attack against all others. And no where else, especially in battle.