Curse

Greedy Gus · Apr 04, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Bah, that's me not reading the skills well enough. I saw the elite forceful blow and assumed it was a knockdown. Yeah, scratch what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

No, it isn't more relevant. The hammer spike's significantly slower, and I'm afraid that matters. You're talking more about dps, and in that case you have to measure the frequency in which you can use your skills, which again.. favors axes. I don't see a relevant point here.

I think you're missing my point. The reason why it's relevant to compare warriors with fixed attack skill slots is that in the high level, you can rarely afford to spend more than 3 skill slots on attack skills. Things that end up being more important are frenzy, sprint/rush, some self-defense with healing sig or endure, a res sig, and a utility skill such as bull's strike/distracting blow/shock/etc.

Whether or not you can spike with all 3, or can just get off 2, is largely irrelevant. It depends on your offensive strategy. If you're relying on 321spikes alone to kill people, then yeah you've gotta make it short and sweet. If you have more pressure and knockdowns, then you can afford to do a 3-4 second warrior spike on someone and power through the healing they receive.

Rey Lentless · Apr 04, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

So take the last skill out of that equation and make it a normal attack skill, and the damage will still be higher with axes.

Greedy Gus · Apr 04, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

About 11 average damage more for evis/exe/pene/hit (263) over backbreaker/crushing/irresistable (252). The axe combo takes longer to pull off. The hammer combo finishes and the guy is still down for another full second.

Rey Lentless · Apr 04, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

So you've come up with a situation.. where the spike is actually around 3.5 secs, with slots restricted to 3.. with 15 in strength (my own attempt at helping hammer's cause) and the hammer still doesn't do as much?

You can come up with hypotheticals where axes and probably swords blow away hammers, and the best hammer hypothetical.. barely loses.

Time to admit.. they don't spike as well.. period.

Byron · Apr 04, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I think you're unaware of what the current hammer speed is. It's currently 1.75, and I suggested a drop to 1.6. Under frenzy, the speed would be 1.17 & 1.07 respectively. It's a 9% difference, not a 27% difference like you think it is based on your math.

I learned something new today, as I figured hammer attacks at 2 seconds flat. That should say something for my credibility...editing now.

Rey Lentless · Apr 04, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

You may have been thinking about bows, the fastest ones have a cooldown of 2 secs.

But even at 2, under frenzy it would be faster than 1.4, it would be 1.34. IAS in this game isn't linear, and a 33% IAS actually makes you attack 50% faster. This is why iway was so powerful when it was first used.. it's interaction with TF allowed very fast attack rates (with the old stacking and higher cap on IAS). You probably knew that, but just sticking that in.. since you had that 1.4 in there.

I can understand why you considered lowering to 1.6 to be an extreme change and rather ridiculous though.

Chicken Rice Seller · Apr 04, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

just a ramdom question if u guys don't mind . Wat mode will u use on a hammer more for pvping ? +30 and ??

Greedy Gus · Apr 04, 2006, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Vampiric haft, with a backup furious for when you don't want the degen.

wheel · Apr 04, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Vampiric haft, with a backup furious for when you don't want the degen.

Zealous is definitely important as well. I would take Vampiric/Zealous over Vampiric/Furious on a PvP character hammer warrior any day of the week and three times on Sunday.

Greedy Gus · Apr 04, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

I have never had good experiences with zealous hammers. 1/1 is weaksauce.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 04, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

If by "certain mods" you mean one, and by "forever" you mean 4 seconds(2.5 under frenzy) longer

Ummm what? The lowest cost hammer knockdown is Counter Blow and that costs 4 adrenaline. Considering that a hammer swing rate is 1.75 seconds per swing, how the hell did you come up with 4 seconds to charge up a 4 adrenaline cost skill? It's more like around 7 to 8 seconds to charge up that first knockdown without IAS.

And you came up with 2.5 seconds to make 4 swings under frenzy? Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

wheel · Apr 04, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I have never had good experiences with zealous hammers. 1/1 is weaksauce.

You make it sound like all Zealous mods aren't 1/1. At any rate, it's still a good trade off. Not as good of tradeoff as with Swords, Daggers, or Axes, but it still nets you energy in most cases.

Rey Lentless · Apr 04, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I have never had good experiences with zealous hammers. 1/1 is weaksauce.

I don't like zealous on hammer either. I'd rather have the +5 damage per hit. Attacking normal speed, and hitting every time.. hammers only give a little better than .7 extra pips from zealous. Considering you'll have misses and kiting (although frenzy helps), that doesn't seem worth it. Vampiric seems better. Using this estimate, it's a choice between 5 energy or 60 extra damage.

JR · Apr 04, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Thats why you switch between them, for when each is appropriate. If your energy is a bit low, and you have a target you can beat on to build up like an NPC, then Zealous is priceless. You then have Adren and Energy up to spike another target a lot faster.

Greedy Gus · Apr 04, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Thats why you switch between them, for when each is appropriate. If your energy is a bit low, and you have a target you can beat on to build up like an NPC, then Zealous is priceless. You then have Adren and Energy up to spike another target a lot faster.

You can even use a zealous axe or sword for that

JR · Apr 04, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

You can even use a zealous axe or sword for that

For the same reason that I prefer using the hammer to build up adren, I don't think it's worth it. The additional pressure (for example in the case I mentioned actually killing that NPC) makes it worthwhile sticking with the hammer in my opinion.

icemonkey · Apr 04, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

the zealous axe for the hammer warrior is similar to the wand for axes and swords, its purpose is something other than pressure. Besides if you are whacking an NPC with your zealous axe, you get to have your shield out, providing maybe a little help agianst being over extended into their NPCs. I think a prepared warrior has all 4
vamp hammer
zealous hammer
zealous axe/sword
wand

JR · Apr 04, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

the zealous axe for the hammer warrior is similar to the wand for axes and swords, its purpose is something other than pressure.

Entirely different purpose. A wand is solely for building up adrenaline at range, so you can go in fully charged and drop someone fast with less risk. Indeed; a good hammer Warrior would have one aswell, but it isn't really an applicable comparison in this case.

Poison Ivy · Apr 04, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

The ability of using a wand to build up AD is sooooooo going to be nurfed...

JR · Apr 04, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

The ability of using a wand to build up AD is sooooooo going to be nurfed...

I hope that was sarcasm. In the case that it wasn't; I seriously doubt it.