Curse

JR · Jul 23, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

I am beginning to get quite frustrated with Ritalists in GvG at the moment.

It seems to me that nine times out of ten when facing a guild of simmilar skill level a Ritualist will make the game go to VoD. Your standard Ritual Lord + Boon of Creation Ritualist has a crippling effect on the damage of a standard balanced build, and is very much a backline character and thus hard to kill. Splitting is a viable option, but that again is a tactic that just lengthens matches.

At VoD the Ritualist excells, protecting not just the team but also the NPCs. For example if it hits VoD and both teams have catapults repaired, the team with a Rit can just put up Shelter and not really have to worry. Alternatively (as happened tonight) they can push into your base even if you have the complete NPC advantage, and happily keep agro on your NPCs in catapult range with shelter up. There isn't much you can do, as if you try to push them out they will simply just keep firing the catapult on you.

Then there are the games against guilds of a noticably lower skill level, who get rolled at the stand and then just turtle with the Ritualist. Cracking that is hard as hell if they aren't completely stupid, and again just leads to VoD. You will win of course, but as a result the game has been made twenty minutes longer than it should have been because of one guy.

Before Ritaulists were a part of the game it was less common for games to go to VoD, but from my experiences over the past two weeks it seems now it is more common than not. This really is killing the amount of fun I have in GvG, and to be quite honest I had more fun in the few matches I had in HA tonight.

Coming from someone who seriously dislikes HA, that is saying something.

kvndoom · Jul 23, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Anet is in a bad position with Rits. If they nerf Ritual Lord, the class gets abandoned in GVG because their main use is an AOE Protective Spirit / Guardian spammer (the net effect of Displacement, Shelter and Union, more or less). Take away Rit Lord and there's little that a Rit can do that another class can't do better. It's a bad situation all around.

yesitsrob · Jul 23, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Hm, one thing I really dislike about ritualists is they all have the same frickin build.... I cannot recall the last time I saw a ritualist in gvg without Ritual Lord, Boon, Shelter, Union, Displacement....

I would like for skills, like Unnatural Signet maybe, to not be completely useless against non-spirit teams so that there may actually be a point in taking them in the random ladder.

I too hate it when you have someone turtling with a ritualist by the 5 minute mark, but can't get the game to end till around 30. I know it ruined runs we used to have where they probably should have resigned 20 minutes before they actually do :\ and by the time the match ended everyone is like RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it i'm going to bed.

lately came across a team, packed with warrior shutdown, a ritualist, and other boring hexes.... half way into the match they have the ordasity to tell us we are the most boring team ever :\

Need to make Rt Lord removable or something imo, that skill is stupid, with it being there there simply isn't a reason to take another rt elite. blah. But, if you do take it away, then rits are pretty useless

Isaac Lunoa · Jul 23, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Rits are pretty vulnerable to interrupts, no? Unless they have a Ward of Stability ele, there is no way for them to prevent both interruption and KD.

Synthetic · Jul 23, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Ritual lord needs to be made into a stance, then wild blow will counter it just fine.

Poison Ivy · Jul 23, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Who knows, Nightfall might intruduce some skills that will change it

In the meantime, just curse outloud on vent whenever you see a Rit

Stealth Rider · Jul 23, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Rits are pretty vulnerable to interrupts, no?

Yes, but your interrupter would have to be in their backlines and (if a ranger) the rit would need to be in LOS to interrupt them, *if* Shadowsong doesnt hit you, and Displacement isnt already up. These are things you cant exactly count on. i say make Rit Lord an enchantment, then you just need a char to move in and remove it every ~30 seconds.

Kariston The Swift · Jul 23, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Ritualists completely changed the GvG Metagame for the worse in my honest opinion. Having a ritualist on your team allows your team to throw positioning out the window because of all the protection they provide

>

Spook_Cell · Jul 23, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

You know boon is already an enchantment and is very much needed to keep the spam up.

Byron · Jul 23, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It seems to me that nine times out of ten when facing a guild of simmilar skill level a Ritualist will make the game go to VoD.

Very much QFT. Displacement and Shelter make dealing damage extremely frustrating, borderline fruitless. And if the enemy decides to turtle up, forget about it; to echo what Ensign said in another thread, grab a good book and wait for VoD.

Quote:

This really is killing the amount of fun I have in GvG, and to be quite honest I had more fun in the few matches I had in HA tonight.

Zomg, JR- is back?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synthetic

Ritual lord needs to be made into a stance, then wild blow will counter it just fine.

Who besides IWAY brings wild blow?

The range is the problem. Rits are naturally vulnerable to damage and interrupts, but when they are double aggro-range away, it doesn't much matter how vulnerable they are.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 23, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

As I've mentioned before, I really hate the backline Rit character. It's a character that has an incredibly powerful effect from far out of range of any disruptive skills. It's counterable by splitting, but games drawn out by splits can be almost as bad as losses on the GW ladder, where everything is about playing a lot while having a good win/loss ratio.

Overall, I'd like to see the range of spirits nerfed and their effects or costs buffed such that the Rit became a viable midline character rather than someone who sits far away from the battle and does all his work perfectly free of disruption.

rii · Jul 23, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

From experience Rits are worse on some maps than others. Some Isles, I think Weeping Stone and Warriors come to mind as places where Rits are very powerful. Jade Isle to a lesser degree and of course Wizards/Hunters, which are basically copies of Warriors. Burning can be an issue. Not only can the Rt get into a more or less untouchable position during flag stand fights, it can get into one when turtling also. This means that turtling is so much easier. On Burning for example though, the GL area is so open you can more or less get a mesmer on the Rt from any position.

On these maps it is too easy for a Rit to get into an untouchable position. Other maps, which are either more open (Imperial, Druids, Nomads) or have decent options for movement (all the bridges on Isle of the Dead for example can mean a mesmer can push 'forward' without fear of punishment for overextension) offer a good fight against Rits, because in the majority of cases if you can get a half-decent surger on a Rt then their abilities drop significantly. Not only is Boon of Creation shockingly vunerable (45s recharge), it is the only e-management in the build, and without it Rt's activity drops heavily. Often even on these maps their Rt can still be quite far back, but a coordinated effort to strip/surge rush it can work just fine.

As for the effect, whilst it certainly is powerful I don't know about nerf-worthy. Perhaps it's just the teams I've fought with it (don't think I've met an awesome Rt team yet), but dedicated wanding in between casting by the midline can take down spirits a lot faster than many forms of spirit hate. Of course, if you run two mesmers then Unnatural signet should be considered, and if they don't run spirits just use it as spike assist.

Overall I don't mind the use of Rits in battle, there are possible counters (as mentioned splits at least can break things up), I feel the main problem is when they start turtling and just drag the fight out, making no attempt to get out, or prepare for VOD, or anything. If anything could be changed, I would make it harder to turtle by perhaps changing the GL areas so it is easier to assault.

Reducing the range of spirits would roast Rt's (assuming a drastic reduction). Anyone that continued to use Boon would get it stripped easily by anyone with half a brain, thus reverting to some kind of damage/spirit Rt with essence/siphon. Again, that just moves from 1 build to another. That doesn't even mention how stupidly ripped up anyone with an interrupt would be against Rt.

This discussion kind of reminds me about heal party v degen teams. This is similar except Rt v warriors. Both situations allow someone standing in an untouchable place to make a huge difference to the fight without fear of disruption. Even after the HP nerf.

IMO.

cookiemonkie · Jul 23, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

The fact that the Ritualist plays from behind the backline with skills that can not be interrupted by skills in most balanced builds tool bar such as power drain, etc. Yes its really silly. The ritualist is a class I wound't mind seeing nerfed to being useless. Binding ritualist are non-skill class / builds are have such a great impact in the length and out come of games. They deserve to be nerfed out of the game, it was much more fun before they came along and brang the spirit shitting / hunting game with them.

twicky_kid · Jul 23, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Strip the Boon and sig of humility rit lord. That will make him a waste of space. Again the only problem is reaching the rit in the first place.

They need to reduce the range of his spirits to bring him closer to the backlines.

Smite and ranger spike is about the only builds I see that can break a rit. Both of these builds use a lot of small dmg that overloads union and makes shelter useless.

studentochaos · Jul 23, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Broadly speaking, I am frustrated by Rt's. I don't want to put one on my team, as I feel it is tactically limiting (I don't like them in splits). However, when I run against them I feel forced to split. Assuming a split is disadvantagous the Rt becomes a major pain. For direct countering I find putting both an interrupt ranger and a warrior or unnatural signet will keep the Rt under control, but then you often find any of these characters being drawn into overextension.

This situation originally was simply annoying, but now is rather frustrating. I am never one to cry nerf or complain about builds, but the current Rt situation is choking rather than challenging. There is a variety of possible nerfs to reign in the Rt, but IMHO a small reduction in their range would be the best. I don't want them out of the game, but I don't want to have to use intercontinental missles to take down spirits either.

JR · Jul 23, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Zomg, JR- is back?

To quote djWheat; "The only person to play more Guild Wars after quitting".

I quit largely because of my job, then the company went boom and I lost my job, so I suddenly had the time to play more than ever. Now I thankfully have the job back, but with much kinder working hours.

Anyway; back to how annoying Rits are.

Vindexus · Jul 23, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I'm still amazed that Izzy doesn't come directly to me and ask me "Vindexus, how should I change this build?"

The answer is:

Reduce the range of spirits.

There are counters to Rit spammers. Wouldn't it be nice if I could get into range to use them?

DieInBasra · Jul 23, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Reduce the range of Binding spirits. The other ones are useless enough.

rii · Jul 23, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I'm still amazed that Izzy doesn't come directly to me and ask me "Vindexus, how should I change this build?"

The answer is:

Reduce the range of spirits.

There are counters to Rit spammers. Wouldn't it be nice if I could get into range to use them?

Yeah, it would be nice. It would be very awesome. I would agree with this idea if the casting times of binding rituals was greatly reduced... as in perhaps 1s casting times. Also, the issue of crappy energy management also needs addressing if this was to take place.

ATM, if you stuck a boon/lord Rt in the midline where say, a mesmer would be standing, any half decent team would rip him a new one. Boon is fragile as hell, and long spirit casting times are vunerable to any number of counters (as you state). KD, Blackout interrupt, actual interrupt, diversion (as always). At the moment, I think 'active' energy management skills such as essence strike should also be buffed since frankly boon in the range of anyone with a strip is terrible (essence/spirit siphon currently is fine e-managment on a Rt, they are just never in range to use it). Make the binding rituals harder to disrupt (1/2s casting times) and that would be more reasonable. Rt is now in range for disruption, but in return it isn't handed to you on a plate.

glenn_rolfe · Jul 23, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Playing to VoD is a perfectly legitimate and often smart way to win GvG's. WM has built their whole game style around it, and at times have used rits as well.

when Anet introduced the rit they also introduced a character perfect to passing through the defined lines of battle. What I think is that people have pigeon wholed the assassin class to a backdoor ganker, when in fact it has the ability to pass over lines and dismantle a class like a rit spirit spammer, or at the very least slow it down with clever skill combos and timing. But I do not know of any guild that has invested the time into developing the assassin this way.

A gale spam/distortion mesmer is also a very common build that can pressure down a rit.

I think rits are fine (though it'd be nice to see one that wasn't just a communing spammer in GvG) and you should always plan it always.