Curse

JR · Jul 31, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

Please...the Spearmen did exactly what ANET needed. We showed them what flaws were out there. Stop trying to act like the Spearmen killed GW. Would you rather broken stuff make it to final release?

Have to agree here. It was a beta weekend whether you like or not, and Spearmen definately got that build noticed.

Should Anet have locked the ladder? That seems to be a popular complaint. Then you have to ask yourself if people would have made as much effort to find broken builds if rating wasn't at stake.

Leaving the ladder unlocked for the beta weekend allowed for this kind of thing to happen, it was a risk Anet was willing to take to get a more conclusive test of the new content. I personally think they made the right decision, and am glad that Spearmen found it and made an effort to make sure it got noticed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

As far as guild rank goes....all these supposed elite guilds and their snobish attitudes got what they deserved in my opinion. GvG is supposed to be a war....in a war you need to adapt or die. If you can't counter it...copy it...if you didn't copy it...and went with your I'm too good to run that attitude, then you lost, and deserve to loose. Play to win! There are no rules in war. Unwritten rules aren't rules at all.

I would disagree. You run something like this all season and farm rating, are you playing to win? Not really. It gets to play-offs and you either run this and get beaten by counters, or run something else and lose due to inexperience. I have always thought that truly playing to win is running builds that actually help you improve as a player. More diversity and flexibility is what really pays off in a tournament situation.

However this is slightly off the topic, and mostly just opinion.

Aug · Jul 31, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

What are the counters to D/Mo's? I've seen none suggested that actually work. Can't Hex or Condition stack, and you certainly don't want to get into melee range with them. If Dervishes were allowed in the championships, I wouldn't be surprised at seeing teams comprised of mostly Dervishes even at the highest levels of play.

JR · Jul 31, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

The weekend event is over, we won't see Dervishes again untill the next event. As such I would hope by then they have been tweaked considerably.

Divineshadows · Jul 31, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

Please...the Spearmen did exactly what ANET needed. We showed them what flaws were out there.

They haven't even scratched the surface with the flaws in Nightfall, because the most basic functionality in it was so broken that it masks every other bug that lied dormant over the weekend. Take for instance scythe damage range and swing rate combined with its potential for multiple hits on every swing. The numbers on this to me certainly look broken as well, but how could A-net possibly determine conclusively if this is the case when nobody actually bothered to use a scythe?

I would equate this to shipping a beta system to your customers only for them to discover that the system does not boot and hence what was the purpose of the beta in the first place other than to frustrate customers and give them less hope for what is to follow?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

Stop trying to act like the Spearmen killed GW.

I already stated that had Spearmen not discovered first just how broken that build was, then some other guild would have and destroyed the fun of GW for the weekend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

Would you rather broken stuff make it to final release?

A leading question to which the answer is obviously no. Still, this beta was like a dog with one leg, one eye, and no tail whimpering "Please kill me now."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

As far as guild rank goes....all these supposed elite guilds and their snobish attitudes got what they deserved in my opinion.

Just as Spearmen will fall back down on the ladder to where they deserve if they make further attempts to GvG this season now that the preview is gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

If you can't counter it...copy it...if you didn't copy it...and went with your I'm too good to run that attitude, then you lost, and deserve to loose.

Indeed, but you left out the 3rd superior option for the weekend which was to not play. Any guild that chose to play (with the exception of The Last Pride) and cared about their rank would have been foolish to play anything other than 6 D/Mo, 1 Mo/Me, and 1 water ele with heal party, prodigy, maelstrom, and deep freeze. It was quite amusing how [EvIL] still managed to beat Spearmen through serious outplaying despite their massive build disadvantage. However, had they been playing against 8 clones of themselves, the team that played D/Mo would have resoundingly beaten the team that ran their normal build.

Even more hilarious than Spearmen's match against EvIL were the several matches against other D/Mo teams where your opposition would get you in a choke point and then drop a maelstrom on your head, followed by several clicking sounds, and followed by massive party wipe of Spearmen. Must be leftover traits from playing Southern Shiverpeaks and cast tanking through the maelstroms the ice imps drop on you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

Play to win! There are no rules in war. Unwritten rules aren't rules at all.

There is more to it here than just playing to win. There is playing to win in the short term, which Spearmen certainly did but what they won is unclear as a silver cape is out of reach for this season. However, there is playing to win in the long term by actually improving your play in GW and win in the long term, which playing D/Mo for a weekend does not help with. In addition, guilds in this game acquire reputations which can affect who you can get to guest with you and whom may teach you some key points about improving play in GW PvP which also affects long term winning. Spearmen's reputation has been tainted.

Ka RaTae · Jul 31, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

There is more to it here than just playing to win. There is playing to win in the short term, which Spearmen certainly did but what they won is unclear as a silver cape is out of reach for this season. However, there is playing to win in the long term by actually improving your play in GW and win in the long term, which playing D/Mo for a weekend does not help with. In addition, guilds in this game acquire reputations which can affect who you can get to guest with you and whom may teach you some key points about improving play in GW PvP which also affects long term winning. Spearmen's reputation has been tainted.

We did exactly what we wanted...had fun....lots of it. And we got a ton of medals and faction. We are an ineligible guild do to the fact we are Korean with no Koreans, and have 2 devs in the guild. So everything we do is just for the fun of doing it. So if the Spearmen should get any kind of rep from this it should be that they have fun! We had lot's of fun all weekend...us and all our allies as well. Sounds like you must have hid all weekend afraid to play because you might loose precious rank. Your lose again I guess.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 31, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I would disagree. You run something like this all season and farm rating, are you playing to win? Not really. It gets to play-offs and you either run this and get beaten by counters, or run something else and lose due to inexperience. I have always thought that truly playing to win is running builds that actually help you improve as a player. More diversity and flexibility is what really pays off in a tournament situation.

However this is slightly off the topic, and mostly just opinion.

The thing to recognize is that this only matters if you're a guild that's going to the playoffs. There are no playoffs for this season, and barring another hideously unbalanced event like this one, Spearmen doesn't have a shot at top 16 for next season.

Basically, unless you're a top 16 guild, your versatility doesn't matter because you'll never see the playoffs anyway.

Spearmen were clearly trying for a silver cape this season. Of course, they didn't get it, but what they did was 'playing to win' as best they could have. If nothing else it gave them a chance to play against very skilled players and possibly improve their own play a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineShadows

They haven't even scratched the surface with the flaws in Nightfall, because the most basic functionality in it was so broken that it masks every other bug that lied dormant over the weekend. Take for instance scythe damage range and swing rate combined with its potential for multiple hits on every swing. The numbers on this to me certainly look broken as well, but how could A-net possibly determine conclusively if this is the case when nobody actually bothered to use a scythe?

I would equate this to shipping a beta system to your customers only for them to discover that the system does not boot and hence what was the purpose of the beta in the first place other than to frustrate customers and give them less hope for what is to follow?

Agreed. This weekend was pretty useless as beta-testing. If Arenanet's devs and alpha testers couldn't see the obvious broken combinations of the Dervish, something is seriously wrong.

JR · Jul 31, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The thing to recognize is that this only matters if you're a guild that's going to the playoffs. There are no playoffs for this season, and barring another hideously unbalanced event like this one, Spearmen doesn't have a shot at top 16 for next season.

Basically, unless you're a top 16 guild, your versatility doesn't matter because you'll never see the playoffs anyway.

You may not see play-offs THIS season, but there will be other seasons following. Think long term, not short.

(Although Spearmen is actually in the wierd situation of being disqualified from play-offs, which makes this a null argument in their specific case.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Spearmen were clearly trying for a silver cape this season. Of course, they didn't get it, but what they did was 'playing to win' as best they could have.

A silver cape in a season with three more weeks to it? I seriously doubt they are stupid enough to think that they could farm enough rating in one weekend to hold a top 16 spot for three weeks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

If nothing else it gave them a chance to play against very skilled players and possibly improve their own play a bit.

Improve their play running a build like that? How much are you actually going to learn with a horribly broken 'gimmick'? You will straight up roll all but the best teams, and only against them may you actually pick up on something usefull. It would be far more beneficial to your play if you ran a more 'balanced' build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Agreed. This weekend was pretty useless as beta-testing. If Arenanet's devs and alpha testers couldn't see the obvious broken combinations of the Dervish, something is seriously wrong.

Pretty usefull as beta-testing? I think it was incredibly usefull. All of the balance issues such as D/Mo's, Sand Shards etc became much more apparent when put in the hands of the public. Anet would need a vast alpha team to hope of finding everything, or judging the balance of everything accurately.

I would agree that in the case of the D/Mo build it does make me wonder how they didn't notice it, but it is really beside the point. It was very much a worthwhile event.

Divineshadows · Jul 31, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

Sounds like you must have hid all weekend afraid to play because you might loose precious rank. Your lose again I guess.

Hardly did I hide all weekend. While my guild as a whole decided not to GvG on Saturday and Sunday, we did still did plenty of TA. A guildmate of mine made 100k by selling medallions and I made around 50k (cause I used quite a few to make flames which I used to get extra faction for myself).

While I did resort to PvE for stretches of time this weekend (kiting 4 D/Mo in TA on several matches does get exhausing after all), I did get the opportunity to try out the two busted builds in RA myself and spread my message under these names:

Rp Is Nub Trash (stood for Ranger/Paragon and not roleplaying as some players misunderstood it)

Dmo Is Nub Trash

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Agreed. This weekend was pretty useless as beta-testing. If Arenanet's devs and alpha testers couldn't see the obvious broken combinations of the Dervish, something is seriously wrong.

It is really the whole concept of the dervish that bothers me. Looking over the skill list again, I see the words "you" and "your" blasted all over the place. I cannot help but think of the dervish as anything other than a very selfish being from reviewing the skill descriptions. I counted up the number of skills that reference allies in the dervish lines and there are only 6 (1 in earth prayers, 2 in mysticism, and 3 in wind prayers). In contrast, the warrior has 5 (not counting the skill IWAY) all of which are in tactics, but the warrior's skills that help their team are much more potent -- charge, shields up, retreat, watch yourself, and protector's defense. The paragon, on the whole, seems to be all about team play unlike the dervish.

I think they should just nuke the whole concept of the dervish class and start completely over on it. PvP degenerated to a level worse than even Ensign described in his article "Why Nuking Sucks" when referencing a hypothetical metagame where Elementalists actually do good damage. Unlike the glass cannons he describes, these Dmo things were neither frail nor extremely susceptible to shutdown (more condition and hex resistant than a boon prot).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

All of the balance issues such as D/Mo's, Sand Shards etc became much more apparent when put in the hands of the public.

I stand by my claim that this weekend only revealed the extremely obvious balance issues which should have been found via inspection anyway leaving so many more balance issues uncovered or at the very least uncharted.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 01, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I think they should just nuke the whole concept of the dervish class and start completely over on it. PvP degenerated to a level worse than even Ensign described in his article "Why Nuking Sucks" when referencing a hypothetical metagame where Elementalists actually do good damage. Unlike the glass cannons he describes, these Dmo things were neither frail nor extremely susceptible to shutdown (more condition and hex resistant than a boon prot).

I don't think Ensign ever said that a metagame where elementalists do good damage would be a horrible thing, though obviously it would be very different. Indeed, my impression of the Dervish skills is that Arenanet was actually trying to make non-sucky DDs, which isn't a bad idea in itself.

For reference, here's what the damage numbers look like for a Dervish with infinite energy spamming his 3 attack skills. This is, of course, assuming that he hits a single target and there is no kiting or movement.

Balth's Rage - (88 / 5.75) = ~15.3 DPS
Other Two - (88 / 8.75) = ~10.05 DPS
(10.05 * 2) + 15.3 = 35 total DPS from the skill spamming.

To put this in perspective, an axe warrior with no attack skills has a DPS of 26.66 without Frenzy and 40 with Frenzy. Pretty comparable as far as single target damage goes.

The major issues I have with the Dervish isn't their damage, but their sustainability. It comes down to two things, really...

1.) The Health gain from Mysticism. This allows the Dervish to run freely without monks and own any other character in skirmish fights. Reversal becomes a 50-100 point heal on a 2s recharge that gives the Dervish energy. CoP instantly restores their entire health and energy pool. Once you take out the health gain and Dervishes need monks to be effective, something like DervishWAY is a lot less viable except as a nubstomping build.

2.) Shutdown options are the other major issue of the Dervish, and it's a much harder one to solve. You can't reliably interrupt their PBAOEs because of the 3/4s cast time, and you also can't significantly increase the cast time without making those skills laughable as actual damage. You can't energy deny the Dervish because of the massive gains from Mysticism. You can't hex or condition them because of CoP. In short, the list of ways to counter Dervishes consists of only two or three skills, while the list of ways to counter warriors is massive.

I'm not sure exactly how to go about solving this, but removing the enchantment-based nature of the Dervishes 3 major DDs would be a good start. This forces them to fill the rest of their slots with strong energy management to keep their damage machine going, and leaves them less room for things like CoP or other self-sustaining skills.

Once you've done that Dervishes become another option in the 'killing people' slot without being too hideously overpowered.

Phades · Aug 01, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I2.) Shutdown options are the other major issue of the Dervish, and it's a much harder one to solve. You can't reliably interrupt their PBAOEs because of the 3/4s cast time, and you also can't significantly increase the cast time without making those skills laughable as actual damage. You can't energy deny the Dervish because of the massive gains from Mysticism. You can't hex or condition them because of CoP. In short, the list of ways to counter Dervishes consists of only two or three skills, while the list of ways to counter warriors is massive.

I'm not sure exactly how to go about solving this, but removing the enchantment-based nature of the Dervishes 3 major DDs would be a good start. This forces them to fill the rest of their slots with strong energy management to keep their damage machine going, and leaves them less room for things like CoP or other self-sustaining skills.

Assuming CoP gets changed, pious restoration is still very useful for healing and cleaning off hexes. This skill alone makes alot of hex based shutdown options mostly ineffective. Form of balthazar coupled with a draw conditions, martyr/extinguish, or form of melandru with enchanted haste are both pretty rude and grants good protection against conditions while augmenting run speed for considerable amounts of time. Muddy terrain almost seemed manditory and nature's renewal helped as well. Given the concept of the dervish and what the basic concept of skill application exists for them, i dont see those 2 skills changing much in terms of being effective against dervishes.

Unless what the forms actually do changes a bit, i dont see much in the way of expanding the counters that already exist for them. Form of balthazar could get tweaked to be IAS instead of run speed and possibly lower the AL slightly, which would force a small change in the existing "optimal" build, but form of melandru seems a bit more tricky without losing the flavor of it entirely. Even changing the condition immunity to a duration reduction is kinda harsh given the nature of condition removal, but it might be neccacary. Then there is dwayna that would probably be used most frequently next, removing the obvious need for pious renewal, but i have no idea how to reduce removing a hex every time you use a skill properly without destroying it entirely.

The damage the actual dds do with their bonus effects could get tweaked slightly, considering a couple of them ignore AL, while others do not. This wouldnt be a major alteration though to really change the problem of reliable countermeasures against them. Unfortunatly with the DDS, it wouldnt take much to nerf the actual effect they have to the ele level or lower and there isnt enough in the scythe line to really warrent them as a primary melee only combatant.

I like the idea behind the class, but im just hoping they havent designed themselves into a corner with this profession.

Byron · Aug 01, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Leaving the ladder unlocked for the beta weekend allowed for this kind of thing to happen, it was a risk Anet was willing to take to get a more conclusive test of the new content. I personally think they made the right decision, and am glad that Spearmen found it and made an effort to make sure it got noticed.

QFT.

A general opinion, if I may: I don't think Anet will make much changes to the Dervish. Marketing is number one priority, and it's more important for businesses to get people to buy the product than make sure the users are happy.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Aug 01, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

(Although Spearmen is actually in the wierd situation of being disqualified from play-offs, which makes this a null argument in their specific case.)

Today my guildie was getting a run through the Desert and he noticed his runner was from the spearmen and started raging on him for running a build like that in GvG. This guy claims they have multipule alpha testers and that they had discovered this build and told Anet about it, but Anet had done nothing about it.

Edit: By the way Paragon spike owns

suiraCLAW · Aug 01, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

What are the counters to D/Mo's?

Spirit bond: for 10 seconds d/mo's can't damage you.

miteethor · Aug 01, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

Today my guildie was getting a run through the Desert and he noticed his runner was from the spearmen and started raging on him for running a build like that in GvG. This guy claims they have multipule alpha testers and that they had discovered this build and told Anet about it, but Anet had done nothing about it.

Wow. It's amazing how many complainers and ragers the Spearmen have generated. I can't tell you how much we were laughing all weekend while we rolled high-ranked teams with our stupidly powerful 7 Dervish build. Anet sets the rules of the game by presenting you your list of skills. It's up to you to decide the best combination of skills to use with the goal of winning the game. I don't know what game YOU were playing but I was playing Guild Wars, and last weekend Dervishes and Paragons were part of that game.

I'm glad that you and your guild have some sort of self-imposed moral code about playing the game a certain way, but I am in no way required or desire to play whatever fantasy-land version you have dreamed up where magical fairies tell you secret things not to do while playing a game despite the fact that the game clearly allows you to play in that manner.

JR · Aug 01, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I stand by my claim that this weekend only revealed the extremely obvious balance issues which should have been found via inspection anyway leaving so many more balance issues uncovered or at the very least uncharted.

Better than nothing.

Aug · Aug 01, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

For reference, here's what the damage numbers look like for a Dervish with infinite energy spamming his 3 attack skills. This is, of course, assuming that he hits a single target and there is no kiting or movement.

Balth's Rage - (88 / 5.75) = ~15.3 DPS
Other Two - (88 / 8.75) = ~10.05 DPS
(10.05 * 2) + 15.3 = 35 total DPS from the skill spamming.

To put this in perspective, an axe warrior with no attack skills has a DPS of 26.66 without Frenzy and 40 with Frenzy. Pretty comparable as far as single target damage goes.

Frenzy doesn't cause Warrior damage to ignore armor. Also, Dervishes do have a Scythe and an associated attribute that does add some DPS, which you've failed to account for. And, sure, that skill damage may be that over time, but all that damage hits very quickly. And can hit multiple people (almost assuredly hits two, given the AoE size).

And you can't Spirit Bond everyone all the time. That works against Elementalists and other large packet spikers because they can't regen energy and recast their skills fast enough. But a Dervish could. And the Dervish is dealing AoE damage that is larger than PB.

It's quite obvious to me that something needs to be changed in regards to the Dervishes' AoE skills to tone them down.

suiraCLAW · Aug 01, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

For reference, here's what the damage numbers look like for a Dervish with infinite energy spamming his 3 attack skills. This is, of course, assuming that he hits a single target and there is no kiting or movement.

Balth's Rage - (88 / 5.75) = ~15.3 DPS
Other Two - (88 / 8.75) = ~10.05 DPS
(10.05 * 2) + 15.3 = 35 total DPS from the skill spamming.

To put this in perspective, an axe warrior with no attack skills has a DPS of 26.66 without Frenzy and 40 with Frenzy. Pretty comparable as far as single target damage goes.

Sure, and touch rangers have a DPS of 65.

The problem with those d/mo's are:
- they never need to lower their DPS (warriors need to cancel frenzy when damaged and have way more problems with kiting)
- you can take 8 of them wich give serious problems if you consider kiting
- they cause aoe damage wich forces you to spread out
- they spread conditions
- you "can't" shut them down

It's like using a team with 8 warriors who won't need to worry about health, energy, shutdown and kiting.

DieInBasra · Aug 01, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

I think it's more like useing 8 warrior elementalists who don't need to worry about health, energy, shutdown and kiteing. I really don't know how it got past alpha. But I must say, I had fun with that build for about an hour in HA, after that it was just so lame.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 01, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

My above post wasn't arguing that D/Mos are fine as they are. I was arguing that D/Mo damage isn't that much worse than warrior damage.

The real problems with D/Mos come from the fact that they have enough self-healing to run without monks, and are pretty much immune to shutdown with their current skillset. If warriors had these things they would be just as ridiculous.

Therefore, if the self-healing were removed from D/Mos and they were built such that the shutdown options were comparable to warriors, their damage alone would not make them particularly overpowered.

Phades · Aug 02, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Therefore, if the self-healing were removed from D/Mos and they were built such that the shutdown options were comparable to warriors, their damage alone would not make them particularly overpowered.

This is the problem i was alluding towards with specific suggestions towards changes to different form avatars. They can be nerfed so that they can be shutdown, but then a few of the forms lose what made them unique from other GW skills.