Curse

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 11, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

I think people are getting the wrong idea.

The reason touch ranger is so powerful is because they have team mate as well.

Personally, I have no problem dropping touch ranger as ANY profession. But, with a mesemer or interrupt or knock down on their side, there will be nothing I can defend against them.

Boon prot also get put into alot of pressure against touch ranger (more than they are against warrior), because the normal guardian, RoF, etc won't help negate the damage at all. While you can't go heal so easily either, because those hex others throw at you would just tear you apart if you don't have enough enchant for CoP. The only thing touch ranger have some grace is that, they can't spike at all.

JoDiamonds · Jun 14, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

I don't think Touch Rangers are overpowered, and I'd be happy if ArenaNet left them as is (though they can obviously introduce subtle counter-skills in the future, and possibly more touch attacks as well =).

There are counters. The counters are now gaining in popularity, and were largely things that weren't popular to begin with. This is how the metagame works, and is a good demonstration that it does work. Huzzah, ArenaNet made a cool game with an evolving environment!

Any kind of slowing is extremely potent against Touch Rangers, as is energy denial (despite OoB). That covers Warriors, Rangers, Elementalists, Mesmers, and Assassins. As it turns out, straight up healing is at least decent against them (though tougher against a coordinated spike, but that's true regardless), which covers Monks and to a lesser extent Ritualists.

Necromancers don't have much to counter with. Oh well, Touch Rangers should be good against someone, right?

Zui · Jun 14, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

here are counters. The counters are now gaining in popularity, and were largely things that weren't popular to begin with. This is how the metagame works, and is a good demonstration that it does work. Huzzah, ArenaNet made a cool game with an evolving environment!

You're right, there are counters. However their being brought is far from new, at least at mid-high end PvP, unless you want to tell me that crippshot rangers and multi statted eles running some form of water snare or windbourne(or both) were never popular...

JoDiamonds · Jun 14, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

You're right, there are counters. However their being brought is far from new, at least at mid-high end PvP, unless you want to tell me that crippshot rangers and multi statted eles running some form of water snare or windbourne(or both) were never popular...

Er, I wasn't implying that all of the things that counter Touch Rangers are entirely new creations. I just said they are gaining in popularity, which is certainly true (especially in places like Alliance Battles, the topic of this thread).

Yes, everything has been used by someone before. Correct.

This means it is even easier to counter Touch Rangers, because there are proven builds out there that do that.

Navaros · Jun 15, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Reason Touch Rangers are so common is simply because most people are too stupid to bother bringing counters to them.

That does not mean that they are "over used" or "over powered" - they are not.

It means that bad players need to start bringing counters to Touch Rangers instead of complaining about them.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 15, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

I don't think Touch Rangers are overpowered, and I'd be happy if ArenaNet left them as is (though they can obviously introduce subtle counter-skills in the future, and possibly more touch attacks as well =).

Why be subtle?

Can't Touch This 10 energy, 45 second Recharge (Hammer Mastery)
Stance. For 3..13 seconds, you lose 20 armor to melee and ranged attacks, but cannot be hit by touch attacks. If you are not moving, you gain +1 Hammer Mastery while in this stance.

JoDiamonds · Jun 15, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Why be subtle?

Can't Touch This 10 energy, 45 second Recharge (Hammer Mastery)
Stance. For 3..13 seconds, you lose 20 armor to melee and ranged attacks, but cannot be hit by touch attacks. If you are not moving, you gain +1 Hammer Mastery while in this stance.

Something like this might work, but Touch Rangers don't actually use attacks.

Something more subtle might be "Touch-range skills cannot target you".

The major problem has always been that the touch skills are merely skills, and therefore fall outside the normal defenses. (I'm sure this is partially intentional on ANet's part, but there's probably some defensive skills that could have applied to these naked skills that ANet just forget about.)

Robin_Anadri · Jun 15, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Toooootally missed my joke, didn't ya? *sigh*

The logic in touch skills is probably quite similar to the thinking around D&D's touch attack system - your character has a "touch armor class" that is basically only your natural armor (ie, armor from your hide and/or racial bonuses) plus the 10 everybody gets, where you do NOT receive the armor bonuses from your worn armor or magical items. The idea is, it's much simpler to reach out and touch your foe than it is to land an injuring strike with a weapon, so you don't have to roll as high to pull that off. (I won't get into the long string of counters to this, not the least of which is the fact that it provokes a free "Attack of Opportunity" from your foe, which can prevent you from completing whatever your intended effect was.)

I wouldn't be opposed to a reclassification of skills like Vampiric Touch and Touch of Agony to a new label under "Touch Attack Skills," and the action of counters updated to reflect it, for instance, triggering Empathy. I *would* be opposed to removing the effect of Expertise for these. They're still skills, but they are also attacks, which means that counters that work vs. attacks (Empathy, SS, Clumsiness, Ineptitude) should trigger. I *don't* think that evasion stances should apply, I think that falls under the "I can reach out and touch you much easier than I can hit you with a weapon in a place that will get through your armor" logic.

JoDiamonds · Jun 16, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Just cause you made a joke doesn't make it funny. ;-)

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with anything. The world is practically perfect in every way.

vapor311 · Jun 16, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Touch rangers have several things going for them in Alliance Battles. They are:

A) Mobile
B) Self-Sufficient

So beyond the fact that the build works well for this environment, they are in demand. If you sit in the waiting areas looking for a game, you'll see as many requests for touch rangers and touch teams as you will monks.
It is a function of the public team building dynamic in Guild Wars. People want what works and have little use for unique builds that other people may create (until it catches on and becomes another FoTM).

yesitsrob · Jun 16, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

good players won't struggle vs touch rangers, they aren't exactly great, they are just extremely easy to run and very good at beating bad players. in AB you can only really guarentee 4 people in your team know what the hell they are doing... the other 8 could very well get rocked by touch rangers, which would explain their popularity. And any idiot can run a touch ranger, it's a lot harder to be a decent warrior

So while they may struggle a lot vs a good team, they're going to roll over your everyday dumbass dolyak signet warrior

Robin_Anadri · Jun 17, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

I was so proud of a Luxon team I hit the other night. They had an illusion mesmer with Imagined Burden and Conjure Phantasm, and a ranger with Crippling Shot or Pin Down, Hunter's Shot and Apply Poison. I congratulated them when they killed me, and left that team alone for the rest of the battle (Kurzick victory, of course. :P)

Aehron · Jun 17, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Can't Touch This 10 energy, 45 second Recharge (Hammer Mastery)
Stance. For 3..13 seconds, you lose 20 armor to melee and ranged attacks, but cannot be hit by touch attacks. If you are not moving, you gain +1 Hammer Mastery while in this stance.

^ Best part of this whole thread... rofl @ Robin.

Guardian of the Light · Jun 19, 2006, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Good thing: I soloed 2 touch ranger once they're easy to kill

Bad thing: I was also a touch ranger....

twicky_kid · Jun 19, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

SHARED BURDEN FTW

This 1 spell will decemate any team of touchers. No rex removal with only a 9 second down time.

Just run till they are grouped then cast and run some more. Or you can just degen them out since they have no healing other than life steal.

There are much more dangerous builds I would worry about. I see a great opporunity for frag mesmers to make a strong come back. Frag mes + any spiker will kill a target in less than 6 seconds. They also take down MMs in no time with no line of site spells.

2 wars/thumpers and 2 smite monks will over run anything you put in their way.

This is IWAY for Alliances. Think about it.

1. Its easy to get a group

2, You don't need to rely on a healer

3. Its easy to run.

4. Great mobility.

Saborath Gilgalad · Jun 19, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I was monking in AB (for the luxons) last night and my good every time I went I was facing at least 4 touch rangers. One battles the kurzicks had 8 touch rangers, and then they swarmed me, all eight of them, and it was gg for me I was pressured out fast even with mass amounts of kiting. Because of the mass amounts of Touchers in AB if im not monking the only other thing I'll play is a Crip-shot w/ blackout, to slow down the damn things. Im still waiting for the match when the kurzicks enter with 12 touchers.

And because of the mass amounts of touchers I now tend to not do as many ABs as I used to because those thing piss me off, and I just dont want to deal with them.

But I dont think Anet will swing their Nerf Bat at touch rangers just because there over used in ABs. I think we'd have to see them over used in HA and/or GvG's before anet does anything about it.

Guardian of the Light · Jun 19, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

/sarcasm
We need to nerf boon prot too their used in ALMOST EVERY TEAM. NERF CAPS ON!!!

/end sarcasm

Just because something is used a lot doesn't mean it's overpowered.

For all we know the touchie build could just be the first of many AB team builds. Wait a while and someone will come up with another team build and everyone will forget about touch rangers.

MasterPatricko · Jun 19, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Well a new skill as a counter would be useful, but it should not be overpowered. Maybe something like:

Holy Water (Enchantment Spell) Energy:10 Cast:1 Recharge:30
For 15 seconds target ally cannot be damaged by life stealing.

Or put it the other way:

Holy Water (Hex Spell) Energy:10 Cast:1 Recharge:30
For 15 seconds target foe cannot use life stealing.

Sofia Sofia Sofia · Jun 20, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Just fought 3 of them in an AB, I wasn't really prepared per se, but Crip shot + Hunter's shot + Distracting while on TF. Those were really all I needed. Oh and I was using the Crippling Bowstring

The annoying thing is that they bring Plague Touch! And there's always some idiot standing next to them not moving for them to put the cripple on.

If I had to say the BEST counter:

Crippling Anguish or Imagined Burden if you need the elite slot. If they can't shake off their cripple, they're useless. Also something to interrupt Troll is nice, though not necessary.

To kill them straight up, non-elemental spell attacks or degen are the best. They tend to use stances against arrows, you can't close with them as a warrior, and they get the +30 elemental armor.

Former Ruling · Jun 24, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Touch Rangers PWN in Alliance Battles, you can talk about their many weaknesses all you want, but IWAY in HA has many weaknesses too, and it was the donimate build in HA for months.

Reason: People just don't counter them.

1) Warriors - Touch Ranger>Warrior 99% of the time. They feebly try to get off that sever/gash or whatevers, while you just touch and plague them to death, MOST EVEN TRY HEALING SIGNETING while getting pounded by 2-3 touchers. And they ALWAYS run right to you and try to "pwn" you....SOOOO helpful later on (read below).

2) Other Rangers. Pwnt 90% of the time. They try to put Whirling Up, and even try to Troll under the touches of 2-3 touchers.... The one build that rangers can use against touchers is CripShot, and even then, the above warriors I mentioned eariler are GLAD to run right up to you, to give you a good Plague off target.

3) Necromancers - ALWAYS are MM's in AB. MMs cant do anything about being attacked. Maybe if other vareints of Necro showed up...but necromancers are no threat right now.

4) Elementalists - Usually Nukers in there....Most try to start casting something stupid like M Shower when we run over to them...Pwnt before it even casts.Some are Air Spikers (lol?) and try to Blinding Flash us...ignored. If more ran Ice Hexes...maybe then...but "ZOMG NUKERS PWN" is too big right now.

5) Monk - No monk in there is going to outheal 2-3 Touchers on him, and monks usually dont party up and help each other. Monks try to throw on Prot Spirit and Gaurdian when we come up (lol?) and then waste energy as they feebly try to orison themselves through almost 200 dmg a Touch round.

6) Ritualist - Straight Pwnt. They dont show up often though.

7) Assassins - Seriously...you dont have to be a good build at all to pwn the random assassin builds some try to use in here...

8) Mesmer - the person people assume will be the saving grace for all anti-touchers. Most dont even know HOW to counter it...I've had CLUMINESS put on me...BACKFIRE put on me...Among other things. Mayve they'd be a problem if more showed up with the right build...but...meh...

So see, the major problem is everyone is trying to get at them the wrong way... Their STRONG because there isn't much to counter them present in the battles. You can say "X build owns them" all day, but until "X Build" gets more face time in A battles...it doesnt matter much.