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Old Aug 13, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixdartbart
This is about the only build that we have ran across for 3 days now.
I guess this is the popular choice to deal with the melee heavy builds but my god it's a pain.

It use to be fun to just run our same balanced team against whatever changing enviroment came and went but when people are dedicating half of their team to utility characters I'm not sure what to do because this is no fun at all.
I've also noticed that the dual aegis-water snare-blind bot-ward campers are often the same people bitching about Rits being too defensive

*runs off to create "Black Hole" skill to suck these guys through their wards*
We very much run pressure, despite having that defense. We don't just ward camp
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Old Aug 13, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42   #62
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Originally Posted by Phelann
We very much run pressure, despite having that defense. We don't just ward camp
We haven't fought you guys since last season, so I'm not at all sure of your current build, but when we fought you most of your pressure came from chained blackouts and gales on the monks while your warriors scored kills. That's not what I'd describe as spike, but it's also not what most people mean when they talk about pressure.

I don't know your current build, but I've yet to meet a build with that much defense at the flagstand that could apply enough damage pressure to exhaust the monks without spikes. Would you say that the pressure in your build comes from massive damage, or massive shutdown?

On an unrelated note, I was rather amused to watch Rifts vs AcDc last night. Rifts was running a build with 3 Ritualists (!) who's basic strategy was to run in circles around the map until VoD, and then win with the NPCs through the massive support and offense 3 Ritualists + 3 warriors provide. Probably not the most effective build against a coordinated team, but it certainly got points for creativity.

I was less than amused to meet 4 seperate split teams in the course of last night. Win or lose, it gets boring to walk around the map for 30 minutes with very little actual battle taking place. In splits the outcome often comes down to small skirmishes which are pre-determined by the builds people are using. Split matches can get very interesting and tactical, especially at VoD, but to get to that point you often have to spend a lot of time with large parts of both teams not accomplishing much.
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
I was less than amused to meet 4 seperate split teams in the course of last night. Win or lose, it gets boring to walk around the map for 30 minutes with very little actual battle taking place. In splits the outcome often comes down to small skirmishes which are pre-determined by the builds people are using. Split matches can get very interesting and tactical, especially at VoD, but to get to that point you often have to spend a lot of time with large parts of both teams not accomplishing much.
this is a natural reaction to all the thumper rubbish going on, split team are a way around the current meta to a degree
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08   #64
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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
We haven't fought you guys since last season, so I'm not at all sure of your current build, but when we fought you most of your pressure came from chained blackouts and gales on the monks while your warriors scored kills. That's not what I'd describe as spike, but it's also not what most people mean when they talk about pressure.

I don't know your current build, but I've yet to meet a build with that much defense at the flagstand that could apply enough damage pressure to exhaust the monks without spikes. Would you say that the pressure in your build comes from massive damage, or massive shutdown?

On an unrelated note, I was rather amused to watch Rifts vs AcDc last night. Rifts was running a build with 3 Ritualists (!) who's basic strategy was to run in circles around the map until VoD, and then win with the NPCs through the massive support and offense 3 Ritualists + 3 warriors provide. Probably not the most effective build against a coordinated team, but it certainly got points for creativity.

I was less than amused to meet 4 seperate split teams in the course of last night. Win or lose, it gets boring to walk around the map for 30 minutes with very little actual battle taking place. In splits the outcome often comes down to small skirmishes which are pre-determined by the builds people are using. Split matches can get very interesting and tactical, especially at VoD, but to get to that point you often have to spend a lot of time with large parts of both teams not accomplishing much.
a) They split because of what you were running
b) We only went crazy blackout/gale chains once we got a monk kill
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
I was less than amused to meet 4 seperate split teams in the course of last night.
Split is a natural counter to pressure/smite/8v8 builds, and should be expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
Win or lose, it gets boring to walk around the map for 30 minutes with very little actual battle taking place.
I'm pretty sure I saw this same thing word for word at least once written by teams that ran 321 caster spike or ranger spike. People laughed at them then, and I don't see why you should expect a different response.

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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
In splits the outcome often comes down to small skirmishes which are pre-determined by the builds people are using.
Not necessarily, skill definitely comes into place. But people should absolutely be rewarded for playing characters that are superior in skirmish scenarios if they plan on being balanced or even countering the metagame with planned splits.
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23   #66
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Gus is right. Expecting teams to take you straight up is silly, so you'd better get used to running.
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36   #67
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Originally Posted by Phelann
They split because of what you were running
I guess I should have been more specific. I'm not referring to builds that split mid-battle. Almost every good match we've had has involved some kind of split at some point. What I'm referring to are the builds who's flagstand team basically exist to sponge damage. They have enough offense at the flagstand that you have to leave some guys there to prevent them ganking your flagger and getting constant boosts, but they're so packed on defense that you can't break them while countering the gank.

So basically, your 4-5 guys at the flagstand aren't under any significant pressure, but they're also not able to get kills through something like a ritualist + wards + blinds. Meanwhile, your defensive squad is doing the 'real' work of countering the gank. If you're one of the guys at the stand, this makes for a pretty boring fight.

Not all split builds are like this, of course. We had a really fun match the other day against DiE's offensive split. It's more the '5 sponges at the flagstand' that makes things less fun for me.

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus
I'm pretty sure I saw this same thing word for word at least once written by teams that ran 321 caster spike or ranger spike. People laughed at them then, and I don't see why you should expect a different response.
*shrug* I guess you can laugh at me if you like. I'm not sure why you'd laugh at me for having a personal preference about what I like to face. If I was saying that split builds were cheap or that people shouldn't run them I guess I could understand, but all I said was that I find certain kinds of fights less fun.

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus
Not necessarily, skill definitely comes into place. But people should absolutely be rewarded for playing characters that are superior in skirmish scenarios if they plan on being balanced or even countering the metagame with planned splits.
Yeah, I agree with this. All I'm saying is that I prefer a more pressure-oriented metagame.
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54   #68
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The Illuminati are running a very frustrating build at the moment, along the lines of what you mentioned. A team at the flagstand that sponges damage, and is very hard to get kills against, and a number of characters that can split off into your base to clear NPCs if you don't react fast enough. Frustrating to play, as you can near enough garauntee that every match will go to VoD, by which point they will have the advantage if you aren't carefull.

I think this is a very strong play at the moment, and it certainly seems to work for them. Basicly splitting early enough to tie down the other team with holding the flag stand and defending their base. Soak up damage with a very defensive flagstand team, and carefully prepare for VoD with the offensive split. It certainly isn't a style of build I enjoy, with most matches going to VoD, but I can respect that it works.

It basicly negates whatever build the other team is running, unless they are simply better at splitting than you. Even then it is difficult to do much more than put a bit of DP on their offensive split characters, and prevent them from doing anything to your base. It will pretty much go past the 30 minute mark regardless of how well you play, given the amount of defense in the build.

The answer to this build I suppose is to visibly split before they do, putting them in a position where they either have to split three ways, or just deal with your split. They of course are built to split well, so this really relies on you having a simmilar capability to be able to challenge them. This is probably why their build works so well, given the metagame shift away from toolbox builds towards more 7 vs 7 oriented pressure builds with a limited capability of splitting.
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14   #69
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JR has the right idea for countering this style of build. It can be hard to think about playing agressively when you're threatened on multiple fronts, but it's absolutely necessary against this style of play. There are basically two ways to win against this sort of team.

1.) Have a defending force ready every time they come to gank, and DP out their gank force. Depending on what they have and what you have this can be very difficult, but successfully DPing out one or two characters before VOD almost guarantees the win. You have free reign to drop their NPCs yourself, or simply roll them 8v6 at the flagstand if your build can power through all their defenses.

2.) Play agressively with the splits yourself and try to take out as many NPCs as they do. These builds usually aren't set up to 8v8 well, so if you've dropped most of their NPCs when VoD hits you can just guard the lord for 5 minutes while running flags and force an 8v8 battle at 35. From there you should have a pretty decent shot at winning.

Either way, don't try to power through the flagstand team. Keep only as much defense as you need to consistently run the flag. Otherwise, devote whatever pressure you have to killing their gankers or taking out NPCs in their base.

It's a very map-dependent build as well. It's an absolute bitch to fight on Frozen Isle, and the warrior's isle varients can also be a pain because of the protection Shelter grants from the catapult. You have to be very careful or they'll catapult your remaining NPCs, while theirs remain untouchable. Druids seems like it would be a pain, but I've actually found it to be easier than Frozen because of how easy it is to see and move against incoming gank forces. The bane of this build would definitely be things like Burning and Jade where splitting is painful or impossible.
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
carefully prepare for VoD with the offensive split. It certainly isn't a style of build I enjoy, with most matches going to VoD, but I can respect that it works.
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playing against a vod strategy team is far more enjoyable than playing against IWAY...i mean thumpers
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10   #71
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Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe
playing against a vod strategy team is far more enjoyable than playing against IWAY...i mean thumpers
I don't think so, at least you can play the gank race, you can train yourself at kitting, running, splitting, so you can have a real fight

VoD build is just camping and wait until VoD because no one can do anything. You try to split, Owww too many defense, you try to fight at flag? Owww 2 guys go for split so you start to pursue them and one more time nothing happend.

And the worst situation is camping in lord room where you really can't do anything else but waiting.

Really I prefer to fight a Thumper team than a VoD build
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Old Aug 14, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22   #72
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I don't think so, at least you can play the gank race, you can train yourself at kitting, running, splitting, so you can have a real fight

VoD build is just camping and wait until VoD because no one can do anything. You try to split, Owww too many defense, you try to fight at flag? Owww 2 guys go for split so you start to pursue them and one more time nothing happend.

And the worst situation is camping in lord room where you really can't do anything else but waiting.

Really I prefer to fight a Thumper team than a VoD build
i don't mean builds like defensive flag campers, but mobile builds that try and weaken your npc's and try to force mismatches across the maps in preparation for VoD stength. But barely anyone plays like that since GvG is turning into fast food with the quick win builds.
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18   #73
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i don't mean builds like defensive flag campers, but mobile builds that try and weaken your npc's and try to force mismatches across the maps in preparation for VoD stength. But barely anyone plays like that since GvG is turning into fast food with the quick win builds.
A build that relies on going to VoD every game is inevitably going to be a poor ladder build, though it's a good thing to be able to play if you have a shot at the playoffs.

The problem with mobile builds at the moment is that they need enough defense to prevent a pressure build from just walking in and slaughtering their lord. That's what has spawned the boring "5 sponges at flagstand + 3 gankers" meta. The last really mobile split build I saw was DiE's, and they seem to be the exception.

I agree that mobile builds are incredibly fun to play, and can be equally fun to play against. That's not what seems to be happening though.
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20   #74
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Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe
i don't mean builds like defensive flag campers, but mobile builds that try and weaken your npc's and try to force mismatches across the maps in preparation for VoD stength. But barely anyone plays like that since GvG is turning into fast food with the quick win builds.
Ladder GvG has turned into that, but in tournament play you still very often see those builds. It's just that those builds aren't great for ladder play.
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08   #75
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The ladder is flawed.

A ladder is suppose to be designed to bring guilds to a "natural" level where players can get away with fewer games without totally losing rank. The problem is that the ladder resets so often that it takes longer to climb the ladder and reach a point which fairly describes skill. The other problem is that there is a floor on the number of points you can earn. This encourages more ladder racing by further inflating ratings.

What does this have to do with the meta game? The meta game is largely effected by people needing to race up the ladder instead of relying on fewer quality wins. There will always be a quick win tendancy in the meta game, which will cause occasional counter swings.

This isn't going to change, but I'll occasionally complain because it does effect how we play.
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12   #76
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Originally Posted by Thom
The ladder is flawed.

A ladder is suppose to be designed to bring guilds to a "natural" level where players can get away with fewer games without totally losing rank. The problem is that the ladder resets so often that it takes longer to climb the ladder and reach a point which fairly describes skill. The other problem is that there is a floor on the number of points you can earn. This encourages more ladder racing by further inflating ratings.

What does this have to do with the meta game? The meta game is largely effected by people needing to race up the ladder instead of relying on fewer quality wins. There will always be a quick win tendancy in the meta game, which will cause occasional counter swings.

This isn't going to change, but I'll occasionally complain because it does effect how we play.
The ladder worked back when there were long seasons...
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48   #77
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Problem with long seasons was that people were abusing the ladder with smurfs. If there was a way to moniter that while running long seasons, it would be excellent.

Perhaps a change in guesting rules for top 200-100-50 teams would make a difference.
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53   #78
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Problem with long seasons was that people were abusing the ladder with smurfs. If there was a way to moniter that while running long seasons, it would be excellent.

Perhaps a change in guesting rules for top 200-100-50 teams would make a difference.
The impact of smurfing on the ladder is grossly overrated, and I think it would be infinately more preferable to have longer seasons despite the fact that it would resurface.

I definately do agree with your post on shorter seasons being less about skill and more about ladder farming, and wish Anet would take it back to the way it used to be.
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54   #79
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So basically, the conclusion to this thread would seem to be that you either

a) Go with the flow, throw your balanced build out the window, forget about trying to learn and just run thumpers or spike

or

b) Run a VOD build and bore yourself and everyone else to death while inching slowly up the ladder

Happy days
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17   #80
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I think longer seasons would be better, but having random unrated matches would kill the need for smurfs in order to test builds. I've always wondered why unrated battles cannot be random, seems quite silly. Sure smurfs might still be around in order to kill other guilds rank but.. there will always be some bad stuff going on when playing with other people. Double egded sword of playing with others. :P
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