Curse

Fanta · Aug 13, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

We run what's fun and what teaches us to be better players

I have no intentions of flaming at all but, in your eyes, how exactly does triple smite teach you how to be better players?

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 13, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanta

I have no intentions of flaming at all but, in your eyes, how exactly does triple smite teach you how to be better players?

I've certainly learned a number of things playing it that I didn't learn playing balanced at the lower levels of the ladder. Some examples...

-The build's lack of disruption forces the players to analyze the enemy build and identify which characters are the most danger, and which are vulnerable to pressure. Since the build's only real disruption comes in the form of warriors, the warriors were forced to play a lot more disruptively than we'd previously done. We usually analyze the enemy build and give orders on who to pressure in the first 30 seconds of the match, because failing to disrupt a top 100 offense will get your team killed very quickly.

-Until a couple days ago, we didn't have any passive defense in our triple smite build - no Aegis, no wards, no other defense which we brought when we ran a balanced build. As a result, countering spikes on the build has to be handled exclusively through watching enemy warriors and identifying/preprotting targets. Our monk and ele players have gotten much better at watching and countering warrior spikes as a result. There aren't nearly as many teams that can consistently get spikes through our monks, while we used to rely overmuch on our passive defense and were vulnerable to disruption.

-While triple smite is a very strong offense, with splits or disruption many teams don't give you a long window of opportunity to apply pressure. Our warriors have gotten better at quickly pressuring out the opposing team, and knowing when to go for monks and when to go for offense. Coordinating gale locks and learning to spike without calls have both been skills we learned on triple smite.

-As Brad mentioned, triple smite as a build has some weaknesses against split. Learning how to play against split without a lot of strong soloing characters has been an informative experience. 6-2 or 5-3 split builds often require us to give up almost all pressure at the flagstand in order to DP the gank force. Player skill and skirmishing ability also is important when dealing with splits, and even relatively small mistakes have large effects on the match. I still consider split something we have a lot of room for improvement on, but we're much more capable of handling it than we used to be.

There's probably other aspects and I only see it from the warrior/matchcaller perspective, but those are the things I feel have grown a lot stronger since we started playing triple smite. It's more the result of playing against very strong teams than the build specifically, but I feel like we've improved a lot more in a month of triple smite than we improved the previous month playing purely balanced.

overclocked · Aug 13, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I guess I'm just curious whether others consider the GvG smiter to be a gimmick that doesn't require player skill or a balanced character.

Smite is a gimmick and thumpers are a gimmick, if by gimmick you meen IMBA. Its sad Anet has not even ballanced chapter 1 skills, and chapter 3 skills are comming out soon.

Fanta · Aug 13, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

K, thanks for response and one last question; how come you didn't take the Mostly Harmless route, and analyze the tactics of an already top contending guild like Treacherous Empire and apply them to yourselves. I only say this because taking the route of a build like triple smite can really leave your guild with a bad reputation, like you said you have already experienced within the PvP community, and it could leave you in a bad "hole" so to speak in the future.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 13, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanta

K, thanks for response and one last question; how come you didn't take the Mostly Harmless route, and analyze the tactics of an already top contending guild like Treacherous Empire and apply them to yourselves. I only say this because taking the route of a build like triple smite can really leave your guild with a bad reputation, like you said you have already experienced within the PvP community, and it could leave you in a bad "hole" so to speak in the future.

Well, to analyze their tactics it's generally easy to do when actually playing them. And they might not be able to farm enough rating with regular builds to actually stay up there so that they CAN play those guilds.

yesitsrob · Aug 14, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

even single smiters are easy to play, triple smite is a cop out gimmick, you can claim all you like that it requires more skill at a higher level, but to be honest, having played triple smite at a higher level, i'm reluctant to agree. it's horribly simple.i remember in season 2 beating top 20 teamage with it in less than 5 minutes and it felt RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing dirty, it'd build over skill to be sure

Like I say, for all i know, NUKE may have improved dramatically in player skill and as a team, but last i remember with them playing a non-gimmick balanced they were a 10 minute match. I don't mean to be offensive, rather than being defensive of your choice in build, which i personally don't feel you should feel the need to do with all this thumper bollocks around etc... just play balanced for at least a shortwhile, prove that you are just more than a few decent warriors capable of applying devastating pressure, if that is the case

B§x¿44¶»1@$ · Aug 14, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Gimmick now=cookie cutter?

Honestly, it's just what people who EBayed their rank 3 account, or payed someone in the services forum to get it for them- and are mad because other people who have no skill can run these cookie cutter builds and successfully win.

Jealous much?

Bah, I don't follow many guilds other than KGYU, War Machine, and Save The Dolyaks. Anyway, I've seen them running builds practically identical to one another- does anyone complain? Doubt it.

Balanced=build you made yourself/random pug with 2/3 monks, in GvG's case a flag runner (EMo or Ranger) and then the obligitory, rest of the team.

It seems anything without a designated healer is a gimmick. Anything containing a skill never before seen used in the way it is in PvP is balanced until unranked dudes can do it.

It seems... well, honestly I don't even care.

Thats my 2 cents, and I don't even feel like reading the other 3 pages- I just don't like people that think 100k balthazar faction/rank 3 makes them anything special.

NinjaKai · Aug 14, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I am a smiting monk and I can tell you first hand. Smiting isn't a gimmick in my opinion. Smiting is very powerful when coupled with the right skills. Anyone who tries running pure smite isn't using it to its fullest potential.

Phelann · Aug 14, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by B§x¿44¶»1@$

Bah, I don't follow many guilds other than KGYU, War Machine, and Save The Dolyaks. Anyway, I've seen them running builds practically identical to one another- does anyone complain? Doubt it.

I complain because what the hell what kgyu/war maching/NUKE matches have YOU been watching.

Zui · Aug 14, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

I complain because what the hell what kgyu/war maching/NUKE matches have YOU been watching.

You know, I thought the same thing when I read his post... Their builds aren't even simmilar.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 14, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanta

K, thanks for response and one last question; how come you didn't take the Mostly Harmless route, and analyze the tactics of an already top contending guild like Treacherous Empire and apply them to yourselves. I only say this because taking the route of a build like triple smite can really leave your guild with a bad reputation, like you said you have already experienced within the PvP community, and it could leave you in a bad "hole" so to speak in the future.

A lot of our reasoning came down to playing time. When the season started we were lucky to play 3 nights a week, and at the time the metagame was very defense/spike oriented. We did the math and realized that even if we won most of our games on balanced, we simply wouldn't gain enough rating to consistently fight high-level teams. It's the difference between playing 5-6 matches a night on balanced, or as many as 15 on triple smite. We've since started playing a fair bit more and have a rating we're fairly satisfied with, so we've been looking at other builds and tactics trying to find something that suits us.

The other reason was that damage pressure didn't seem to be that popular when the season began, and it's a style we prefer to play. Damage pressure builds are just a lot of fun for us. Better teams will steamroll worse teams in a matter of minutes, the course of matches can quickly shift based on a clever play, and VoD games are rare enough to be fun instead of tedious. Some of the most enjoyable matches I've had in Guild Wars have been two damage pressure teams slugging it out,with the healthbars on both teams fluctuating constantly. When we played balanced it seemed like games would often go on and on, even against bad teams, just because they happened to pack a crapload of defense into their build. Now that damage pressure has gotten more popular we're, again, looking at different styles.

As far as the damage to our rep, I'm not gonna lose any sleep if some guy in Observer chat thinks NUKE are n00bs because of the build we run. I'm not playing this game for reputation, I'm playing because I want to improve and learn how to be a better player. The people who I'd want to earn respect from are the teams that have been consistently been able to beat us regardless of our build, like Fish and iQ. If we're able to provide good matches to teams like that, I feel that we've improved and done sometihng right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Like I say, for all i know, NUKE may have improved dramatically in player skill and as a team, but last i remember with them playing a non-gimmick balanced they were a 10 minute match. I don't mean to be offensive, rather than being defensive of your choice in build, which i personally don't feel you should feel the need to do with all this thumper bollocks around etc... just play balanced for at least a shortwhile, prove that you are just more than a few decent warriors capable of applying devastating pressure, if that is the case

Prove to who, exactly? Why would we feel the need to prove anything? Whether or not we can do well on your particular definition of 'balanced build' isn't of any particular interest to me.

I'm a firm believer in helping the community. I post a lot on these forums trying to answer questions from less-skilled players, and I guest for lower-ranked guilds when possible to try to teach them some mechanics of the game. One thing I have absolutely no patience for though, is teams who complain at us for not running a balanced build after we beat them. Every team has access to the same skills, and if we beat someone it's not our fault for bringing a build that wins, it's their fault for bringing a build that loses. If triple smite where a build that was countered by bringing specific skills I could see your point, but as I said above I think it's a build that's countered more by smart play than the skills on your bar.

When we switch off of triple smite (and I do say when) it will be because I think our team will have more fun and learn more from playing another build. It won't be because I think triple smite is 'cheap' or becaue I feel we need to prove anything. You play the game you're given, and accomplishment speaks for itself.

I'm not referring to you specifically here yesitsrob, just going on more of a general rant. I don't know what guild you're in, or whether we've fought you since we started running triple smite.

Greedy Gus · Aug 14, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Personally, with the recent resurgance of pressure builds that don't seem to be gimmick OR balanced, I've started to think those terms are entirely useless. You don't have a gimmick or a balanced - you have an adrenal spike, a pressure build, a caster spike, a split, a gank build, or whatever other build concept you can create. Obviously some builds can play more than one kind of offense, but each build needs to be evaluated on its own merits, not on some ever-changing set of rules about what takes 'skill.'

I'd say you're confusing terms. When people call all non-balanced builds as gimmicks, they don't mean all non-focused balanced builds (2 war, 1 cripshot, 1 mesmer, 2 e/mo, 2 monk Te build is the classic non-focused balanced build). Others may use the term 'toolbox build' for what I call non-focused balanced.

You can still have plenty of balance in a build and also have a focus, like hex degen, condition degen, heavy melee pressure, heavy domination pressure, highly splittable 'teams', etc. A pressure build can most certainly be balanced in that it has the tools to adapt to things the enemy is doing.

Once you're at the point of having 5 ranger spikers, 6 me/ele spikers, 7 FoC spikers, 3 thumpers + 3 smiters, 5 hex spammers relying on soul barbs and RI sticking, 6 warrior/rangers exploiting pet corpses, etc. etc. etc., then you're generally out of the realm of the balanced build and are just looking to roll some fools who aren't ready for what small thing you're going to blow out of proportion.

Clearly there are shades of gray. Your guild is running a heavily modified triple smite by the sound of it, and are still going to catch a little flak even though you're more balanced than the classic 'triple-smite'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B§x¿44¶»1@$

Honestly, it's just what people who EBayed their rank 3 account, or payed someone in the services forum to get it for them- and are mad because other people who have no skill can run these cookie cutter builds and successfully win.

Jealous much?

Thats my 2 cents, and I don't even feel like reading the other 3 pages- I just don't like people that think 100k balthazar faction/rank 3 makes them anything special.

Frankly I'm wondering what XoO division you're in, and am praying it's not one of our PvP ones with that terrible attitude.

yspark901 · Aug 14, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

If the balanced team is good,,, they should be able to fight with any other builds.... shouldn't blame the build.. blame yourself for not being able to use it right..

that's my opinion on "what build is superior, or broken". I like having all kinds of classes.. so I suppose my guild is balanced,, but,, it really is about having fun.. right?

Guillaume De Sonoma · Aug 14, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by B§x¿44¶»1@$

Bah, I don't follow many guilds other than KGYU, War Machine, and Save The Dolyaks. Anyway, I've seen them running builds practically identical to one another- does anyone complain? Doubt it.

Ummm I don't watch much observer or play in high levels of GvG but I'm just gonna say:

KGYU=Heavy Degen/Pressure
WM= Run around the map and pick off random people
NUKE= Heavily Modded Tirpple Smite I'm told.

Anyways I have played a bit of tripsmite and it really is a wierd feeling. +20's come up and it leaves me feeling a lot more empty than when I pull off a good adren spike. Thats my problem with tripplesmite, a feeling of a lack of achievement.

JR · Aug 14, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

I think it really comes down to the problem that Kestrel brought up on Weapon of Choice a few weeks back.

A lot of teams simply don't have the time to play enough to stay up on the ladder with a balanced build. In the time it takes to have 4 VoD wins with a 'balanced' build against teams with rits, you could have 7 wins and 2 losses with triple smite. It is a more efficient way of farming rating that forces a lot of people into that style of play.

Of course it doesn't really help, as running something like triple smite all season puts your in a terrible situation for tournament play, should you ever get that far. However, there is of course a certain amount of pleasure to be taken from being at the top end of the ladder, which is why it is understandable that guilds run these ladder farming builds. A high rank helps motivate guild members and fend off inactivity, while hovering around at a lower rank can be demoralizing.

I personally get more pleasure from running "toolbox" builds, even though it gives you a lot of VoD games you really do have the flexibility to out-play teams in any number of situations. Even though this strategy is less efficient at ladder farming, I find it helps keep a lot of fun in the game for me.

One match that particularly sticks in my mind is one where I was guesting for NUKE against the guild I am now a member of. We played strongly against DPS at the flag stand, and pushed them back into their base at about 15 minutes. At this point they had got to grips with the triple smite and were able to repeatedly base-res key characters, which eventually forced us to fall out. With the flexibility of their more balanced build they were able to play for VoD a lot more effectively, which eventually led to us losing the game. This match pretty much describes why I can understand running either build. On the side of smite you get the chance of quick wins against good teams that aren't prepared for it, and on the side of balanced you have more ability to adapt and be flexible.

However, despite all of this talk of gimmicks and ladder farming I can certainly back Squidget up. I have been guesting with NUKE for a long time, since before they ran triple smite. As such I can safely say that the build certainly isn't a crutch for them, they also ran a balanced build decently not too long ago. Not that they would be the rank that they are now without triple smite, but that simply comes down to the amount you can play as I covered. There are a lot of guilds that got to the rank they are entirely because of their build, for example one guild in particular has recently been farming the ladder with caster spike. For the rank that they are it is stupidly easy to outplay them, as they simply do not have the experience of higher level gvg play. NUKE is not one of these guilds.

overclocked · Aug 14, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

IMO It is a crutch, because even if they were good at ballanced, they were not able to play ballanced well enough to be that high on the ladder. I guess we will disagree, but how we end up with such different views?

I can only assume you must think that tripple smite is not composed IMBA skill combos/gameplay issues.

ex) expertise and ib, zellots and divine favor, pet DP and necros & smite aoe and body blocking chaos with pets on small badly designed maps.

NUKE seem to have been a 50% win average from feb. through july, and then using tripple smite (?) have gone to 90% wins avg through August. http://www.team-iq.net/forums/ladder...E&territory=Am

I don't intend to be mean, not at all, im just trying to point out that 50% win ratio with ballanced is not consistant with being very skilled, and a 40% increase in win ratio from a build change seems to support the arguement that the tripple smite build is IMBA. they also achived 250 more rating then they have ever had before, omg pwn. I think it's cool that NUKE was smart enough to run a build that wins 90% of the time, but you guys can't expect people to treat you like its not IMBA when it is.

Its the same reaction people gave to SBRI, Spirit Spam, IWAY, Ether Renewal Smite, etc...

JR · Aug 14, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

IMO It is a crutch, because even if they were good at ballanced, they were not able to play ballanced well enough to be that high on the ladder. I guess we will disagree, but how we end up with such different views?

I can only assume you must think that tripple smite is not composed IMBA skill combos/gameplay issues.

ex) expertise and ib, zellots and divine favor, pet DP and necros & smite aoe and body blocking chaos with pets on small badly designed maps.

NUKE seem to have been a 50% win average from feb. through july, and then using tripple smite (?) have gone to 90% wins avg through August. http://www.team-iq.net/forums/ladder...E&territory=Am

I don't intend to be mean, not at all, im just trying to point out that 50% win ratio with ballanced is not consistant with being very skilled, and a 40% increase in win ratio from a build change seems to support the arguement that the tripple smite build is IMBA. they also achived 250 more rating then they have ever had before, omg pwn. I think it's cool that NUKE was smart enough to run a build that wins 90% of the time, but you guys can't expect people to treat you like its not IMBA when it is.

Its the same reaction people gave to SBRI, Spirit Spam, IWAY, Ether Renewal Smite, etc...

I would honestly say that a decent part of that that win/loss ratio was player skill, having guested for them. They have improved in leaps and bounds from where they were back in February. However yes, you are right, a part of that is down to how powerfull triple smite is. Imbalanced? No way, it is simply a good build. About as powerfull (if not less so) as every other build used by top guilds out there. I would also attribute a lot of their recent ladder success to the fact that they actually settled with one build, and got good at running it. Something that suited them as a guild, and gave them the quick games they needed. Putting it all down to the build being imbalanced is just silly.

Compare it to KGYU's build; both overpowering offense that rolls through people. Does that make KGYU's build imbalanced aswell? Not really. It is simply a very front-loaded build. It gets you quick wins, so you play more. Through playing more you fight more of the good teams, but even more of the bad teams, as there are more of them. Thus you get more wins.

You certainly can't compare Triple Smite to SB/RI, Ether Smite or Spirit Spam. They were all serious game breaking imbalances, that everyone had to run. Triple Smite is nowhere near as popular as it would be if it truly was imbalanced. It is like caster spike, ranger spike, split builds, melee heavy builds... they will roll you over if you don't have the tools to stop it, or you can't out play it. They are builds that will always be around, because someone will always get a kick out of running them. On the other hand they can never become popular, because then any decent guilds will start actively taking counters.

Your points about Thumpers, Pets and Death Necros are completely irrelevant; NUKE uses three Warriors, last time I saw. No Pets, no Necros, no Thumpers.(I would agree that thumpers do need looking at though... but I digress.) Infact the FoTM Champion Point farming build is four Thumpers and a Death Necro, the elements of your 'imba triple smite' that NUKE doesn't even use.

It does seem like you are making comments about the skill level of a guild that you have never even observed. Take it from someone who has played with them, you are off the mark.

overclocked · Aug 14, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

You didnt call ranger spike a gimmik before?

JR · Aug 14, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

You didnt call ranger spike a gimmik before?

Did I ever say it wasn't a gimmick?

Lodurr · Aug 14, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

The one place that smiting really becomes imbalanced is VoD. Healing your GL while killing the enemy GL AND nuking the other team's warriors at the same time for next to no energy is ridiculous (GG). Though I'd be curious to know if you guys ever lost a match after the GLs met in the middle.

I don't think the build is a gimmick. It is, however, easier to run than most builds. The huge defense is (practically) impossible for some builds to crack whatsoever in a straight-on fight.