Curse

twicky_kid · Aug 20, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

1 rit spamming union, displacement, shelter, and other spirits behind the doors will prevent the turtles from every getting through the first door.

I have seen this myself. It took over 10 minutes to power through the first door because a rit and a monk stood behind the door and protected the NPCs.

Kakumei · Aug 20, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Paperfly (and the others, you know who you are) has it right. Aspenwood is generally balanced; I play absolutely nothing but Kurzick, using various builds, and I win roughly half the time. If that isn't the definition of balanced, I don't know what is.

hated · Aug 20, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

@sly edge

Wow, this guys basically sumed it all up in a sentance over 125 faction and 4 losses. No one happens to think that's a little odd?

@Riotgear

I've constantly tried raising the gate just as the squad passes thru, and then seen just how many are left when they're done dealing with the eles. Maybe one dies and an off chance maybe two, but that's pushing it.

@Twichy kid

Great a rit and a monk could do that, kudos to them. Again we come to the arguement that not everyone can bring that to the table.

Also please just for you people who will do this, stop telling us to people to go play a monk or rit. They don't want to and shouldn't have to, they paid for the game to play it how they want. Not be told that they have to do it this way or that.

Not aiming that at you twichy just putting it out there.

@kakumei

Sorry but I find that hard to believe, even if you are a monk primary bringing bonding to the area.

Since your post barely contributed to the thread and really just stated how 1337 you are I'll just call you a liar and leave it at that.

You guys really want a point of reference? You really want a comparison of just how fooked up FA is? Here think about this, I took my assassin, MY ASSASSIN, to FA on the luxon side and made him a monk. Do you know what happened every time, not once or twice but 8 consecutive games in a row? We...won.

All I did was camp the turtle and the warriors and spam heal area over and over along with it's duplicate from factions.

Now as someone said *ahem* if that isn't the definition of map imbalance, I don't know what is.

Relambrien · Aug 20, 2006, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Just thought I'd add some of my aspenwood experiences from earlier today.

All of these were played on the Kurzick side.

Kurzick victories: 6
Luxon victories: 1

No Kurzick leechers in any of the games, in three games at least one Luxon left before 60% completion of God's Vengeance. I forgot to keep a tally of Kurzick leavers. Two of the Kurzick victories were extremely close, in which the Luxons had broken the Green Gate and were overpowering the Kurzicks when 100% was reached. The one Luxon victory was achieved at 98% completion. Four out of the six victories were won when at least four gates were down.

No comment on the question of map imbalance. Just posting my results for your reference.

hated · Aug 20, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Well seeing as how we can only take your word for it kudos on the wins or at least what you've written.

I only say that because writing things like;

I win half the time
I won this many times
I've never seen this and this happen
and so on
and so forth

Really is all just what you say, so really try not to use it as a reference and if you can post pics or something so we can believe you.

Not that I don't mind you, but I really just can't use it as reference now can I?

Savio · Aug 20, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hated

Really is all just what you say, so really try not to use it as a reference and if you can post pics or something so we can believe you.

Not that I don't mind you, but I really just can't use it as reference now can I?

What, do you want people to post dozens of screenshots saying "Victory!" or "Defeat!"? If the extent of your ability to discuss with other people is to call them liars or say that their input doesn't matter (when yours somehow does), then this isn't the place for you.

Quote:

They don't want to and shouldn't have to, they paid for the game to play it how they want. Not be told that they have to do it this way or that.

Nobody here tells anyone they have to play a certain way. We only tell people how to play to win.

twicky_kid · Aug 20, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Aspenwood is a map designed for the team to DEFEND the base. If you don't like defensive characters then go to jade quarry. Go play AB or something else. If you don't like the map design or what you job is then don't play it there are other things you could be doing.

Paperfly · Aug 20, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Heh, after all that I spent most of the weekend in Jade Quarry instead, taking advantage of the population for once.

Sweet! Lots of comments, many of them poorly informed. This could take a while!

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Fine the playing field isn't supposed to be level, stupid statement but let's go with that for a second.

Okay there's a timer, great, whoopdie freakin do doesn't help the fact that orange squad and purple squad make a game or 8 vs 8 into a game of 8 vs 16 and two cannons.

Again so the field is uneven, great, I don't know the last time I found where one team could get an unending supply of reinforcements for free. While the other team can be put to a dead stop in terms of reinforcements and be left totally defenseless.

Unending supply of reinforcements? "Renewable" is as good as you can call it, and Kurzick NPCs are that as well (barring the handful in the courtyard).

What part of the game has a time limit don't you understand? Turtles don't spawn instantaneously, so that puts a hard cap on how many you have access to per game.

I also note you - and pretty much everyone else - completely ignored my detailed explanation on how easily you can make the NPC advantage (which does have to exist, whether you find the idea stupid or not) irrelevant.

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If someone hit Simon with, oh, Gaze of Contempt, he'd hit the dirt in no time. Know who brings Gaze of Contempt? Nobody. Well of the Profane would work equally well, but that's another underused skill, despite the absolutely retarded amount of MMs there. Every time I run in to him, I just throw shatter enchantment on Healing Hands and he dies. Every time. If I wasn't there, I he'd solo the entire squad.

Heh, so true. The other one I want to point out to the Luxon throng is Expunge Enchantments. Seriously 'sins, it fits right into the slot where you normally put your Res sig!

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If you were to have the perfect people on each side, the Luxons would still win because when they break down those walls and managed to kill off the NPC's in the base, it's over for the Kurzicks. You can bond all you want but the game has skills to remove enchants.

Bull. A perfect pre-planned Kurzick party would also have Ritual Lords with backup unstrippable Weapon spells and plenty of corpse removal. To counter that you'd have to do some funky stuff with Ranger spirits and possibly Signet of Creation. Even then I'd lay money on Kurzicks winning most of the time, but since the metagame has never progressed that far in real life it's impossible to tell.

Oh, and if you give me a catapult aiming outside the Green gate I can hold the Kurzick side on my own for the rest of eternity. Broken, outright.

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HOWEVER, kurzicks only get maybe half these guys back if they can run amber while luxons get the godlike advantage of unlimited resources.

So really you're doing a fight of 30 vs infinity if that's what you're really going for.

See my comment above on the timer. "Infinity" presumes the game's going on indefinitely... But the whole point is that it doesn't. All up, if you play the numbers game, Luxons will probably have a slightly larger total of spawned NPCs (depending on how the game develops). But it's a completely stupid method of determining the map's balance - for instance, you'll see a higher total of Luxon NPCs in matches where Kurzicks are winning, since they don't respawn until the previous batch is wiped out!

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Paperfly: just because you made up some numbers about FA that doesn't make them necessarily correct. Please back them up with facts...not just numbers made up on the fly on a whim.

Was the "on the fly" thing an intentional pun? Because I found it genuinely witty and amusing, thanks!

<-nosarcasmhonest!

I backed up my statements with both the anecdotal (my observations on win frequency over a lot of games) and the theoretical (my explanation of how these games should, would, and did proceed). I didn't do a proper survey with a full set of statistics, but that's rather hard to do as the system doesn't allow for observers, and any game I play is warped by the fact that I'm in it.

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Fort Aspenwood: ahhhh. Where to begin? First off, I don't play Kurzicks nor Luxon. I play GuildWars. I play to have fun - in every way I can. Thus I am not biased to neither side.
So I've played both sides of FA and it's clearly unbalanced.
I think people have to be intellectually dishonest in order to say that FA is "balanced". There's no other way to put it.

Thank you. We really appreciate that you - out of the goodness of your heart - chose to give us your enormously valuable time as the only unbiased player in the entirety of Guild Wars: Factions to share your insight! And before your accusation if intellectual dishonesty one can only wilt, as under the clear, holy light of judgment which exposes all sins.

Now that I've broken the board's sarcasm tolerance, let me repeat this: I've played more Kurzick-side in Fort Aspenwood than I have Luxon. However, that is because I enjoy the defensive playstyle. I have no alegiance whatsoever to the stupid plot division beyond whatever kind of armour I'm currently assembling for my NPCs... And that tends to be split 50/50.

I have almost a hundred hours of play on this map. I've paid for two sets of 15K Luxon armour in Jadetite from it, and three 15K Kurz in Amber. I'm telling you that it's not that I'm not biased or dishonest; it's that you're wrong!

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Everyone here and their mother has already said it but I'll say it again: 2 bad teams: Luxons win. Two medium teams: Luxons win. Two excelent teams? Luxons win. Whenever there's two teams of about the same skill-level, Luxons should have the upper hand.

We've since had as many posts claiming the opposite. Then hated called them all liars.

...

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Also please just for you people who will do this, stop telling us to people to go play a monk or rit. They don't want to and shouldn't have to, they paid for the game to play it how they want. Not be told that they have to do it this way or that.

Did I say that? I said you should bring a character to the game whose build has been thought out to contribute to the Kurzick gameplan. Monks and ritualists are obviously pretty good at that - hey, they're defensive characters! - but I listed or at least hinted at half a dozen other characters who can contribute to the mix just fine.

...And as Savio pointed out, if you don't care if you win or lose you can play anything you like, no matter how ineffectual! You can't then come here and complain about imbalance, though.

Lord Oranos · Aug 20, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by hated

Nice post, I can see how it would sound that 18 vs 30 is a good idea on paper, HOWEVER, kurzicks only get maybe half these guys back if they can run amber while luxons get the godlike advantage of unlimited resources.

So really you're doing a fight of 30 vs infinity if that's what you're really going for.

Also you said that players are the biggest threat in FA, Ima let that go in the hopes that it was a typo. Any vet of FA is going to tell you the biggest and most immedate threat is the npcs, ask anyone.

Bottom line is, the reason FA is played so much is because it's a poorly designed map.

Doesn't really show much appreciation for hard work now does it?

What? Ok, who kills the turtles, who kills gunther at the end, who heals the turtles and bonds gunther? The npcs?

No, it wasnt a typo. Ive been playing there ever since I got there on my pve's, and I played it in the fpe, for the kurzicks.

The turtle npc may have the advantage, but, if someone kills him(which can be done extremely fast, provided there is no healer around)hes not going to affect the match. The players DO make the difference, we are far more intelligent than npcs. The very fact that a bonder and a rit lord, or a monk healing the turtles is proof that we are more of a threat. The turtle can only do so much before hes degened and spiked to death, or interrupted. Same for the juggernaut.

Ok, for the npcs, 14 of them cannot be respawned for the kurzicks, so its 18 vs 16 now...maybe they should make some of the npcs respawnable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Simon Ward is good because no one brings enchant removal, even though practically everyone on Luxons SHOULD be bringing at least one simply for the amount of survival abilities they wreck.

If someone hit Simon with, oh, Gaze of Contempt, he'd hit the dirt in no time. Know who brings Gaze of Contempt? Nobody. Well of the Profane would work equally well, but that's another underused skill, despite the absolutely retarded amount of MMs there. Every time I run in to him, I just throw shatter enchantment on Healing Hands and he dies. Every time. If I wasn't there, I he'd solo the entire squad.

Just more proof that the best way to win Aspenwood on Kurzick is to play on the stupidity of other players.

True, I saw him tanking today and I set a spirit of disenchant near him and he died right after the enchants were removed.

Bio-Flame · Aug 20, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Quote:
Paperfly: just because you made up some numbers about FA that doesn't make them necessarily correct. Please back them up with facts...not just numbers made up on the fly on a whim.

Was the "on the fly" thing an intentional pun? Because I found it genuinely witty and amusing, thanks! <-nosarcasmhonest!

I backed up my statements with both the anecdotal (my observations on win frequency over a lot of games) and the theoretical (my explanation of how these games should, would, and did proceed). I didn't do a proper survey with a full set of statistics, but that's rather hard to do as the system doesn't allow for observers, and any game I play is warped by the fact that I'm in it.

Quote:
Fort Aspenwood: ahhhh. Where to begin? First off, I don't play Kurzicks nor Luxon. I play GuildWars. I play to have fun - in every way I can. Thus I am not biased to neither side.
So I've played both sides of FA and it's clearly unbalanced.
I think people have to be intellectually dishonest in order to say that FA is "balanced". There's no other way to put it.

Thank you. We really appreciate that you - out of the goodness of your heart - chose to give us your enormously valuable time as the only unbiased player in the entirety of Guild Wars: Factions to share your insight! And before your accusation if intellectual dishonesty one can only wilt, as under the clear, holy light of judgment which exposes all sins.

Now that I've broken the board's sarcasm tolerance, let me repeat this: I've played more Kurzick-side in Fort Aspenwood than I have Luxon. However, that is because I enjoy the defensive playstyle. I have no alegiance whatsoever to the stupid plot division beyond whatever kind of armour I'm currently assembling for my NPCs... And that tends to be split 50/50.

I have almost a hundred hours of play on this map. I've paid for two sets of 15K Luxon armour in Jadetite from it, and three 15K Kurz in Amber. I'm telling you that it's not that I'm not biased or dishonest; it's that you're wrong!

Quote:
Everyone here and their mother has already said it but I'll say it again: 2 bad teams: Luxons win. Two medium teams: Luxons win. Two excelent teams? Luxons win. Whenever there's two teams of about the same skill-level, Luxons should have the upper hand.

We've since had as many posts claiming the opposite. Then hated called them all liars.

This is a perfect example of : Ad hominem fallacy. This is called to the logical error of attacking/making fun of a person in order to (try to )beat their arguments.
That was a good example, book-worthy.

Anyway, Paperfly your Theoretical explanations are worth zero since it's an explanation of a MADE-UP fact (your numbers).
Hell, I can say that the sun is blue and (try to) come up with a reasonable explanation... but my explanation will be worth zero since my premisse (the sun is blue) is false.
That's another form of fallacy that I will not bother to explain here.

FA is not "fair" (within reason) to Kurzicks. I think everyone here understands that ANET probably wanted Kurzicks to be the underdogs on this map. I might guess that was their purpose. And I might even agree with it since it sure is fun to fight an uphill battle.
My point was that Kurzicks in FA have "unfair" odds stacked against them. Where is the line when too much of a handicap is not fun?
I honestly do not know. But I think that the current handicap on the Kurzick side is too much.
IMO that is.

Last but not the least,Paperfly if you have something constructive to say, say it. Personal attacks do not make your points more valid.
Like a Darwin's defender once said: "I hate it when people use their intelligence to bring stupidity to a debate".
Enough said.

Bio-Flame

Relambrien · Aug 20, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by hated

Well seeing as how we can only take your word for it kudos on the wins or at least what you've written.

I only say that because writing things like;

I win half the time
I won this many times
I've never seen this and this happen
and so on
and so forth

Really is all just what you say, so really try not to use it as a reference and if you can post pics or something so we can believe you.

Not that I don't mind you, but I really just can't use it as reference now can I?

I aplogize for not taking screens, but my computer has a problem in which it crashes if I try. You'll have to take my word for it. I can only ask you to trust me, but I can't force you to.

And again, I'm trying to stay out of the argument of map imbalance. Those numbers were just my results, and I figured they would help out the discussion. I'll post some more results after I play some more games today. Unfortunately, there won't be any screens due to the problem listed above.

EDIT: Clarification.

Kakumei · Aug 20, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

My point was that Kurzicks in FA have "unfair" odds stacked against them.

I'm not sure how you failed to grasp this yet but this is the point.

It's designed to be unfair toward the Kurzicks, since they essentially don't actually have to be better than the Luxons to win: they only have to stall them long enough.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 20, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

I'm not sure how you failed to grasp this yet but this is the point.

It's designed to be unfair toward the Kurzicks, since they essentially don't actually have to be better than the Luxons to win: they only have to stall them long enough.

Which means they have to be better than the Luxons. You would see more Kurzick victories if they cut the timer down.

Paperfly · Aug 21, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

This is a perfect example of : Ad hominem fallacy. This is called to the logical error of attacking/making fun of a person in order to (try to) beat their arguments.
That was a good example, book-worthy.

Actually, it was a perfect example of my thinking you were trying to start a good, fun fight - something I quite enjoy, which is why I play Fort Aspenwood in the first place. I simply replied in kind*.

Your original post accused me (and others) of intellectual dishonesty because my anecdotal observations didn't match yours. And now you're throwing the standard book of forum-backpedalling outrage at me? I'm amazed you didn't use the expression straw man anywhere in your latest post**! Surely you found it in the same Wikipedia section as ad hominem?

I also have to assume that you completely missed the irony involved in ignoring the substantial parts of my posts (the bits about game mechanics, figures, and design principles) and instead commented exclusively on my posting style and manner. Does that sound familiar at all?

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Anyway, Paperfly your Theoretical explanations are worth zero since it's an explanation of a MADE-UP fact (your numbers).
Hell, I can say that the sun is blue and (try to) come up with a reasonable explanation... but my explanation will be worth zero since my premisse (the sun is blue) is false.

I made up nothing. My numbers were derived from observing games over a considerable sample size. I made a point of listing the potential warping factors (the main one being my participation in each of those games), and explained why they served primarily as an approximation. Consequently my figures can be considered a study to be disproved - and I'm open to have my figures contradicted by a larger sample size or a better-controlled environment (which is currently impossible without some sort of observer mode). Or I could be lying outright; but accusing me of that would be an ad hominem attack, and we wouldn't want that since it's an established logical fallacy!

Your arguments are qualitatively identical to mine in every way... Except you're claiming a smaller sample size and a less methodical system. And by your cavalier dismissal of everything I've said, it seems you're a lot less aware of any observer bias - you even claimed you had none! Consequently, is it any wonder I'm playing the man as well as the ball?

e.g.:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

2 bad teams: Luxons win. Two medium teams: Luxons win. Two excelent teams? Luxons win. Whenever there's two teams of about the same skill-level, Luxons should have the upper hand.

Clearly, the argument has been reduced to your word against mine... And under those circumstances measuring our relative credibilities is the logical thing to do... And not a fallacy.

*Remember, the first person to mention Nazi Germany automatically loses!
**Yes, that is in itself a straw man. If I use irony of any sort, it's usually quite intentional.

the sly edge · Aug 21, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Keys to wining
Guild group
If u have a group of 4 very strong players the only way you can loose is if your whole team is nubs
and yes i have only lost 4 times to kurzick
Im not sayin that there bad or anything its just how if you got a group on ts/vent etc..
It makes a big difference

JoDiamonds · Aug 21, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Sly, the issue with your statement is that many people are saying it's easier for the Luxons anyway. You are certainly reinforcing that statement.

Other people are stating that they believe it's a balanced map when there are good players.

Personally, I agree with the second part. I just think it's very rare that there are good players filling the Kurzick side. (It's also rare that there are good players filling the Luxon side, but it isn't as important!)

Everyone has largely agreed that with relatively poor players, it's much easier for the Luxons to win. No one has commented much on whether or not this (specifically) is a problem. Instead, people seem to be fighting over whether or not it's always imbalanced versus not always imbalanced.

For instance, Paperfly: Even you agree that with fairly new or poor play, the map is heavily imbalanced. Is this an issue? Should the map be changed so this isn't true anymore?

Ideally, it would be balanced regardless of the player's skill level relative to average players, and would mostly depend on the skill level of the Luxon's vs. the Kurzicks. So all new players would be a fair and fun game, and all skilled players would also be a fair and fun game. I think it's safe to say that's preferable to what Fort Aspenwood is right now.

I'm inclined to think that FA is balanced with excellent players, but that's obviously not the only issue, and I don't think it's the most important issue, either. Perhaps more important than anything would be figuring out what the win ratio is for average players. I don't know if the average players are good, bad, or medium -- maybe the average Fort Aspenwood player has played less than 10 times, because people don't try it that much, so they are always bad. But if games are really lopsided most of the time, there's an issue that needs fixing.

the sly edge · Aug 22, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Yes i know what u mean jo
our guild switched to the Kurzick side today to see what the diffence was.
Truth be told i enjoy the luxon more b/c your not waiting 5 mins to get into a ab.
I went to the Kurzick and there were 4 internation dis and 5 american dis waiting 5 mins to get into a group.

Its just noobs lining up ready to go into battle
*Thats why i enjoy luxon presonally the maps might be better w/e the true win comes down to how good your 4 players are and how good your 12 is, who listens and who dosent makes the game*

Paperfly · Aug 22, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

JoDiamonds:

Good point! And not an easy one to answer. To be honest, I don't think it's possible without making the map too symmetrical (which would dillute its main selling point). As it is, it only takes two, maybe three smart players on the Kurzick side to turn a rout into an uphill battle, and that condition happens relatively frequently in small bursts.*

While getting run over by a slightly organised Luxon gank squad is frustrating, imagine a "balance" that tilts too far the other way: I predict that it would only take 48 hours of Luxons being unable to get their foot in the front door before everyone quits in disgust.

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I think it's safe to say that's preferable to what Fort Aspenwood is right now.

I'm not convinced, to be honest - like I said, I don't think it's possible to "flatten" the difficulty curve without making the experience bland. At the moment you get several dull games followed by one really, really fun one... I dunno, I prefer that!

* I really do recommend trying FA at different times of day. The difference in the calibre of player is enormous. I've yet to come up with a consistent explanation as to why that is, or even what the peak hours are - my unfamiliarity with US timezones probably doesn't help!

Orinn · Aug 27, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

The moral to the story? Run a halfway decent build yourself. Your team will probably be 25% better for it!

Very true. However, this works both ways. If the Luxon turtles can, in essence, win every game if no players were present, then no matter how good the kurzick players are, the luxons don't need to surpass them in skill or straegy to win. In other words, when both teams are equal in skill, the luxons will win. If the luxons are slightly inferior, they will still win. That is very much NOT a level playing field.

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