Curse

frickett · Aug 24, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I think it is great that new professions and new skills are showing up so quickly. This will keep us from getting lazy, and thinking that My build is UBER. Cause I wont know what is coming at me. I will have to prepare for anything.

timmyw29 · Aug 24, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I think it'd be naive to think ANet aren't going to do something about Dervishes. And even if they don't fix Dervishes on release, it'll not be long before they ninja an update that nerfs half of the skills into the ground. There were a lot of skill balance updates in lieu of the Factions release, and soon after.

My personal opinion is that both Dervishes and Paragons will have more PvP use than Assassins and Ritualists have, too bad the game itself is quoted to be more PvE focused. So basically they'll give us two professions that are better for PvP than some of what we have, and a bunch of content that's useless beyond PvE.

There were a lot of useful, extremely useful skills that came from Paragons during the preview event and of course we must remember that was just a glimpse of the number of skills that will finally be included in Nightfall. It's just going to be 20-50% disappointment as far as skills are concerned, similar to Prophecies skills. Better than the 75-80% disappointment that came from Assassins and Ritualists.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Aug 24, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmyw29

Better than the 75-80% disappointment that came from Assassins and Ritualists.

Go ahead think this. I know the truth and trust me youll pay for it.

But off that topic, me and my guildies have been talking about this since the nightfall preview and the simple conclusion weve reached is at this pace GW will be dead in 2 years. First theres the problem of new proffesions, in 2 years thers going to be 16-18 proffesions all with 150+ skills (450+ skills for primary proffesions). With a current max of 8 players in a typical pvp setting it will all just be one giant battle of paper scissors rock. Whoever got the right proffesion over the other team is going to win. period. little skill, little strategy, little luck. All is determined from the beggining and a short bit thats going to be very old. Second, there is the problem with skills for as mentioned before there is going to be 150+ skills per proffesion. I know for a fact that i havent finished unlocking all the skills released from factions, and i can take a sure bet that the average guild wars player has not unlocked all the skills from prophecies yet. This will just be us geezers, all the new coming players will be swamped in just getting any of the at that time proven and trusted builds and start pvping with it. Finally theres the problem with balancing. The dervish was just a taste of whats to come. With so many skills to draw on there is no way a-net will be able to keep up with the nerfs and balance updates thanks to our own inventiveness.

The only real solution we can see is releasing a new campaign every year to year and a half every few monthes relasing a new area ingame.

As someone mentioned earlier either anet releases a new campaign every 6 monthes and the pvp metagame grows way to chaotic or release it once per year and the pve campaign grows old. This idea hopefully satisfies both. I mean come on where is our Sorrows Furnace for Factions, our new UW. Sure the elite missions are great but we want new meat. And pretty much my entire other paragraph is why we need to wait a year in betweeen campaigns.

Anyways, tell me what you think cause currently im kinda shopping for a new mmorpg for when GW finally dies, but ill stick to GW till the bitter end. Its the least i could do for it.

Gosu · Aug 24, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

ahem at least a few other people are seeing what i am seeing, but i according to a source i read a while back Arena-net will not be releasing a new profession with each game that comes out apparently.

So in order to entice new players as well as old players they will need to entice us in different ways which i am sure, they already have worked out. I feel though that maybe with NightFall they shouldn't have released two new classes rather they should have just incorprated newer skillsets for all the existing classes out at this present time.

As well as improving on the PVE content for nightfall, a series of newer skillsets for all the classes would have not only provoked the pvp community into buying the game, but it would have kept them busy for a little while. i mean factions has been out for a little while now and we have barely tapped into some of the potential of the skills we have on offer.

They then could have spent time greatly improvong the PvE content, though PvE getting stale won't hold for long. As with the subsequent release of game after game every six months, the average player will clearly miss out a few campaigns here and there.

There will be players in the game that may only be faction / prophecies or Nightfall players. So if those PvE players want a new experience or challenge they can buy the previous installments, straight away instead of having to wait a 6 months for the next game.

timmyw29 · Aug 25, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwisatz_Haderach

Go ahead think this. I know the truth and trust me youll pay for it.

I was referring to the skills available to use. If you can come up with more than two or three builds for either the assassin or ritualist, you're a miracle worker IMO. Mostly you find that a few of the skills are the optimum and the rest don't quite make the cut. With warriors and monks it's easier than easy to find 5 different builds with enough differences to warrant them as a build in their own right, rather than "you have an option between Soul Twisting and Ritual Lord."

Greedy Gus · Aug 25, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

People who are more into build creation probably get more fun out of an unstable metagame.

Agreed, and this is one point that not many people think about. Opinions wild vary on this topic too.

There are people who hate the buildmaking aspect and wish it was a FPS where their player skill made the only difference. These people often even blast others for doing something different against the metagame as being gimmicky or whatever.

Then there are those who are in the middle, who sometimes give props to a team for doing something different, while also hating on real gimmicky stuff.

And finally some people wouldn't play the game if they couldn't make their own wacky creative builds, and blast people for running the 'proven' metagame-ish builds.

Vindexus · Aug 25, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Anet is introducing new skills and professions too quickly. They should release a new profession every second chapter.

Who the f**k is this Brehon guy and what kind of Assassin does he run?

Ronin Rangerin · Aug 25, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Brehons a rank 12 korean who runs with other rank 12-13 koreans with a ton of interupts in their builds and uses a frenzy assasin. Pretty much standard assasin xept frenzy, rush for shadow refuge, dark escape.

Byron · Aug 25, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Anet is introducing new skills and professions too quickly.

More people get excited about new characters than skill balancing, unfortunately. Business...

As for the OP, I can personally "get into" the uncertainty of the metagame. Balancing is the issue that concerns me; every time a skill balance occurs, or a chapter is released, there is another super build (E-drain, necro orders, tri-smite, and sb/ri come to mind). However, without the chaos, it would be a chess match for every guild battle. Not that I don't enjoy chess.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Aug 27, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I think what i want atleast is controlled chaos.

I mean come on there is a limit to the amount of chaos a game can have before it spirals down into total mayhem? I believe this is gonna happen with Guild Wars as i stated in my last post. I dont mind chaos, and i dont mind a chess game but in the end i want both and so far GW has given me this im just trying to get this to last for a bit more.

Da Cebuano · Aug 27, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Hmmm, in any other game, I think people would appreaciate unpredictability of a fast moving pace. Problem w/ GW is that the majority of the people don't bother to stray from their comfort zone, which is using builds that top guilds uses and only they are the ones that pioneer outside the norm that they have set. The metagame evolves way too slow, in a way this forces change begrudged by the "community".

Although for the most part, I do believe that there are beginning to be way too many classes. I think a max of 10 should be good enough. Instead of adding more, the current classes should be improved w/ current skills adapted to pvp while some skills are obviously pve only, which would avoid alot of hate towards certain skills. TBH, at this point, I think nightfalls should be pushed back about 2-4months or so and be considerably tweaked to be more quality than factions. New classes at this point aren't really needed, as how many times can you recycle the formula of the old chars w/ little tweaks here and there.

As for the OP, I kinda agree, but in a way, I never did like the term "metagame" as I always thought there shouldn't be a standard in pvp. Matches should be determined by tactics and strategies as well as individual prowess. Builds destined to fail cause of facing a certain build shouldn't exist. Although I'm mainly talking about builds that have a thought to them, obviously not talking about just any build pulled out of the ass giving a good fight to a well thought out balanced/thumpway/spike.

/rant

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 27, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

I like how things are so fast paced.

Eventually it will become like "E/XX, wonder what the hell he got for his 2ndary...?" instead of the same all "W/E, ah, shock warrior for sure"

At this moment, people who is TRULY talented and skilled can identify opponent's strength and weakness within few minutes/seconds of encounter. While it would also be harder to just simply run counter build everywhere, which would encourage exotic builds in the area that need it. There wouldn't be a single ruling gimmick (example: instead of a single gimmick best at ganking GL, there will be 50 different gimmick each require a different counter to defeat... it may sound horrible, but as how GW is, defense is always easier to keep anyway)

To simply put... There wouldn't be a metagame, because all build can play at equal level along with the element of surprise. (then thx god I don't have to play IWAY in HA, or thx god I don't have to play thumper in TA)

There is one part I am worried about... luck.

It is very simple to stay updated... just do what you love most.

Ka RaTae · Aug 28, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The problem with an unstable metagame is that wins tend to be based a lot on build, rather than what actions you take within a match. Arguably, the most stable time in the metagame was the last month of the GWWC season, with Gale warriors and OOB boon prots. Every good player knew the builds, every good player knew how to counter the builds, and there was very little new stuff being discovered. When every team can know all the possible builds and counters, matches really come down to player skill.

Compare that to the post-Factions game. You'd have wildly varying success with a given build from month to month, and people have to keep focusing on changing up their build in order to keep up with the constantly changing metagame. A lot of people seem to like this kind of gameplay, but I'm not one of them - I'd prefer wins and losses to be decided by actions taken once the match has begun.

People who are more into build creation probably get more fun out of an unstable metagame.

IMO...what you described is incorrect. Those teams aren't showing more skill at playing the game itself. They are showing more skill at guessing what the other team is going to run so that they can counter it.

This whole discussion is just seems off target to me. Good players with good skills are going to rise to the top no matter what. PERIOD. End of story. If a team can't come up with their own unique build designed to handle several things, then they do not deserve to be where they are.

The fact that this game has as many skills as it does and is fashioned after Magic the Gathering means you need to constantly be looking for that killer build. If you are going to use what everyone else is useing, then why take any skills but rez.

It sounds like too many people who play don't like the abbundance of builds out there and would be happy if GvG was limited to only certain approved GvG builds. Well if that is what you want then maybe you should pettion ANET for another GvG league. The main problem is there just doesn't seem to be enough people playing PvP these days. Too often now you see only 1 or 2 districts open in American HA.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 28, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

IMO...what you described is incorrect. Those teams aren't showing more skill at playing the game itself. They are showing more skill at guessing what the other team is going to run so that they can counter it.

Not sure what you mean here exactly. The only time you really guess specifically what the other team will run is in playoffs and tournaments. Everything else comes down to percentage - will your build get countered by the majority of builds, or will it have an advantage? On the ladder you want to run a build that will have an advantage against the largest percentage of teams, and a disadvantage against the smallest number of teams.

In an unstable metagame, this build is constantly changing and so you're much more likely to lose because the other team's build counters yours. In essence, the match is lost before the gates open if the other team has any idea what they're doing. In a stable metagame, everyone knows the 'good' builds so matches come down more to tactics and plays within the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

This whole discussion is just seems off target to me. Good players with good skills are going to rise to the top no matter what. PERIOD. End of story. If a team can't come up with their own unique build designed to handle several things, then they do not deserve to be where they are.

So how about teams like Mostly Harmless, who took a build another guild made and used it to rise to the top? Who are you to say whether or not they 'deserve' to be where they are? The game's rules have the final say, and the rules are what let them get where they are, even without an 'original' build.

The concept of originality doesn't really work in this game anyway. If your build is good, people will copy it through Observer Mode and run it against you, and you'll have to be able to outplay them if you want to keep winning. I always roll my eyes when I hear people talking about how "X guild is lame because their build isn't original." Guild Wars is not an originality contest, and even in a relatively unstable metagame, creating a winning build won't keep you at the top for long. You need to have the skill to run a build better than anyone else in order to stay up there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

If you are going to use what everyone else is useing, then why take any skills but rez.

So you can win? If you can run the build that everyone else is using better than 99% of other players then you'll win 99% of your matches without ever having to find some 'killer' build. When a counter build becomes popular you can switch to something else and stay at the top. If your gaining rating relies on the originality and 'shock value' of the builds you bring, expect a lot of ladder fluctuation when everyone adapts to your build and you don't have the player skill to keep up. Rifts is an excellent example of this - they were an incredibly strong team on their FC air-spike, but once that got nerfed their rating went down fast, and will probably stay down until they find another 'killer' build. Meanwhile, a guild like EviL that wins more with player skill can stay at the top regardless of nerfs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

The main problem is there just doesn't seem to be enough people playing PvP these days. Too often now you see only 1 or 2 districts open in American HA.

There are plenty of people playing PvP these days. The fact that HA sucks doesn't mean that PvP itself is entirely empty. GvG has always been where the real fun lies, and that continue to go strong.

Ka RaTae · Aug 29, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Not sure what you mean here exactly. The only time you really guess specifically what the other team will run is in playoffs and tournaments. Everything else comes down to percentage - will your build get countered by the majority of builds, or will it have an advantage? On the ladder you want to run a build that will have an advantage against the largest percentage of teams, and a disadvantage against the smallest number of teams.

I am making a statement on this statement of yours

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Arguably, the most stable time in the metagame was the last month of the GWWC season, with Gale warriors and OOB boon prots. Every good player knew the builds, every good player knew how to counter the builds, and there was very little new stuff being discovered. When every team can know all the possible builds and counters, matches really come down to player skill.

Yes..it was stable..it was too stable. All the teams ran almost exactly the same thing. 480+ skills and the best they can do is all run the same couple of builds. Is this their fault, I am not sure, but IMO it's a problem. This game has problems...lots of them. At the core it's that most skills can't function in both a PVE and PVP environment. Another problem IMO is the observer mode. It's ruined the game. Their is no sense of mystery anymore for the most part. If you fight a team that isn't on TV normally, just wait they will eventually fight someone who is. As far as GvG goes with this it allows all the top teams to know exactly what every other team runs. You seem to like this, but I think it's dumb. I don't want to turn this into a rant of what's wrong with guild wars so I won't go on about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In an unstable metagame, this build is constantly changing and so you're much more likely to lose because the other team's build counters yours. In essence, the match is lost before the gates open if the other team has any idea what they're doing. In a stable metagame, everyone knows the 'good' builds so matches come down more to tactics and plays within the game.

That's why this game has what 600 plus skills now. So that you can use them and beat your enemies any way you see fit. It seems to me that if people don't like this they may be playing the wrong game. Maybe they should switch to Counter Strike or Team Fortress. Granted their are times that you will face another build that you just can't beat. But that's the price you pay for playing this game with it's limited skill allowance. Maybe it needs a sideboard of skills that players are allowed to bring or something to address these concerns. They are valid concerns, but I don't beleive that we should be saying that nothing new should be given out or it should be slowed way down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

So how about teams like Mostly Harmless, who took a build another guild made and used it to rise to the top? Who are you to say whether or not they 'deserve' to be where they are? The game's rules have the final say, and the rules are what let them get where they are, even without an 'original' build.

The concept of originality doesn't really work in this game anyway. If your build is good, people will copy it through Observer Mode and run it against you, and you'll have to be able to outplay them if you want to keep winning. I always roll my eyes when I hear people talking about how "X guild is lame because their build isn't original." Guild Wars is not an originality contest, and even in a relatively unstable metagame, creating a winning build won't keep you at the top for long. You need to have the skill to run a build better than anyone else in order to stay up there.

I didn't get my point over very well here, and that's my fault. I should have said it like this. Good players with good skills are going to rise to the top no matter what. PERIOD. End of story. If a team can't come up with a build designed to counter what their opponents are doing then maybe they deserve to loose. Yes, they can plan to run exactly the same build also, and then just try to out play them. But when you talk about teams like War Machine and such that have 8 or 9 people that practice the use of the skills for fourteen hours a day, you'll have a hard time convicing me that one side or the other is better at using the skills on their bar. If you give everyone the same build to run I bet luck, lag, and their tactics at playing the Guild Wars mini-games is more of a determining factor then their ability to run the build.

If what people want is to watch skilled people win in GvG or HA based on their skills at running a build then all the stupid mini-game stuff should be removed. Their should be no NPC's or catapults or flagstands. Skill at running a build is putting two teams together in an environment without this stuff and wacthing them beat the snot out of each other. Yes, their is skill at being able to run both, but for me, and I do stress for ME. I'd rather just see all that other stuff disapear and see builds go head to head. Two identical builds may come down to luck at times, but I am sure it does now alot of times also.

Elaine Donnerbalken · Aug 29, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Imagine there would be 5 different builds of the "SB/Ri" kind. And every one of these would have to be countered in a different way.

Theres only so much you can fit into your skillbars, and losing to the four other "SB/Ri"s because i hadn't any place left to put their counters in doesn't really sound like fun for me.

Ka RaTae · Aug 30, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elaine Donnerbalken

Imagine there would be 5 different builds of the "SB/Ri" kind. And every one of these would have to be countered in a different way.

Theres only so much you can fit into your skillbars, and losing to the four other "SB/Ri"s because i hadn't any place left to put their counters in doesn't really sound like fun for me.

Then why do you play a game that has 600 skills in it?

JR · Aug 30, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

Then why do you play a game that has 600 skills in it?

...because clearly anyone who has a criticism of the game should just go and play something else...

Greedy Gus · Aug 30, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Wrote this for something else, but it seems to be an appropriate viewpoint for this topic:

It seems that one of today's forum/WoC hot topics is that the game's future is strictly bleak, because of the 'down the line' scenario where we have 14 professions and 3000 skills. The common alarmist thinking is that this will destroy PvP as we know it, because it will turn into a crap-shoot rock/paper/scissors game where you can't possibly plan to face everything out there. This is what I disagree with. The things you need to plan ahead for are higher concepts like damage, defense, splittability, movement, enchant removal, hex/condition removal, etc.

When I go make a build right now, I don't attempt to include a counter to every single propechies + factions profession and skill. I don't have a specific fire ele counter, an assassin counter, or an answer to a hypothetical mesmer spamming clumsiness. I put in some defense against pressure, some counter to degen, some spike defense, some splittable characters to defend splits, enough healing to keep us alive, some hex & condition removal, and an offense of preference. And they're all of various levels, depending on the metagame.

Sure I may lose some games here and there because a particular enemy team went against the metagame or countered me, but it's ridiculous to think I can win every game. Since the very beginning, Guildwars has included a game of build where you fight with the best odds against the metagame. That's alongside the player skill aspect that also affects your chance of winning.

So as long as there are no entirely new higher concepts introduced in nightfall and any following chapters, there is really no reason to worry. The dervish and paragon skills are still just doing damage, healing, affecting movement, etc., and you still are already preparing for that stuff.

Every team still just gets 64 slots to put in their damage, healing, enchant removal, etc., so it's illogical to think that it matters how many options are available: they'll only see play if they're better than the current options, and generally will be used in the same ratios. The only time people go crazy and screw with the old ratios are when overpowered gimmicks surface, and Arenanet has shown that they put a stop to those when they're discovered.

So in the end, it's entirely in Arenanet's hands to make sure any new higher concepts they introduce don't make the game less fun to play and/or harder to prepare against. It's not the 3000 skills you have to worry about, it's the concepts like teleporting (assassins) and spirits that only beneficially affect your team (rits) that are dangerous. If they're not fun, then they just might destroy the game. A-net walked a close line with the ritualist in Factions, as a lot of people really hate the way that plays out. But if something new does ruin everyone's fun, it will be easy to spot what it is, and it won't be because it was 'inevitable'.

The only real problem with the 3000 skills is, as others have pointed out, that GW PvP will soon be nearly impossible for a new player to jump into.

Ka RaTae · Aug 30, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

...because clearly anyone who has a criticism of the game should just go and play something else...

That's an asinine statement...especially when you look at the fact that I criticize this game all the time. Their is nothing wrong with criticism.

What doesn't make sense though is to state that it is too annoying to loose because I can't plan to stop 5 possible skill combo's I might come against for a Sb/Ri. So to combat this chance that I might loose because my build isn't the perfect counter, let's change the game so it has less skills or less actually playable combo's in PvP.

Again...if this is your desire I truly feel you are playing the wrong game. I am not trying to be mean, but if you want a limited skill set and want things to be based more on your reflexes. Then the games you need to play are Counter Strike/Rainbow Six type games.