Curse

Undressed · Sep 03, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Expertise is the single best primary attribute in my very own humble non-top 1000, 0-Ranked opinion because it makes certain skills absolutely cost-free and thus encouraging spam. Spam normally gets punished by returning an empty energy-bar but in the case of Rangers it's almost free. That's why you notice hordes of touchers and thumpers in the Arenas. Basing their threat/abuse on their vulnerability, like degen/diversion (toucher) or physical attacks/warrior hate (thumper) is no argument. A thumper might lack the damage a warrior can inflict but he puts more pressure on a target and brings the cheapest-guardian hate you can have: Irresistible Blow. When you play a Hammer Warrior you really know you can't or shouldn't spam it because you also need to have energy for crushing blow. While you have to rely on your 2 energy pipes, a thumper has 3 and reduces their cost with attributes invested into expertise. It makes the hammer warrior feel a bit dispensable pressure-wise. I am very aware that in a adrenaline-spike he'll be superior but why should a primary class pay more for its own skills than the other?

Expertise needs to get reworked, not the skills themselves. Not Irresistible Blow/Crushing Blow, Vampiric Touch etc...but its effect on skills which do not belong to the ranger profession.

minor · Sep 03, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

1st off expertise doesn't make any skill cost free is just reduces the cost.
Touchers can be annoying but not game breaking in anyway.
Same thing for thumpers, normal hammer wars still get lots of play. Thumpers have actually made the game change a bit(which was good imo) by making guardian not so good.
Nerfs for things that are annoying or different will never end if you start.

Ventius Hozza · Sep 03, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Reworking expertise is like saying fastcasting only applies to Mesmer skills, you dont get soul reaping from anything other than dying necromancers and elementalists only get 40 energy if they have a skill from another profession on their bar.

Stop bashing rangers

Loki Seiguro · Sep 03, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

nope never going to happend and yeah stop bashing rangers obivously something happened to you and you hate then......tsk tsk

at that i say rework energy storage i hate it when eles are constantly casting their spells and dont forget divine favor monks dont need help with healing oh and fast casting no more fc ele spike!! w00t!!!

Undressed · Sep 03, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I'm not bashing rangers, I'm actually a devout beastmaster, and no, I don't get suicidal when I get touchebaged in RA. Thanks for the psychogram.

Soul Reaping doesn't trigger on skills and Fast-Casting doesn't affect spells to the same degree as expertise does to skills.

gg

Amity and Truth · Sep 03, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Well... expertise isn't broken. But it will get changed anyways. Too much whining and bitching around about it. So yep, another nerf bat for the rangers. The toucher argument has been done to death by the way... it's all around the board.

To summarize:
It's in no way overpowered or broken, but for some reason a few players tend to regard it as such.

/edit:
Besides, after reading this:

Quote:

Basing their threat/abuse on their vulnerability, like degen/diversion (toucher) or physical attacks/warrior hate (thumper) is no argument.

I had a good laugh. It's basically like saying: I'm right. Everyone who doesn't have my opinion is wrong. That's not actually a discussion here as it allready makes it quite clear that you're immune to arguments, facts and logical explanations - you won't accept them because they "don't count".

Ventius Hozza · Sep 03, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undressed

I am very aware that in a adrenaline-spike he'll be superior but why should a primary class pay more for its own skills than the other?

Why should an Assassin/Ranger get more critical strikes with a bow? You're trying to undo the whole cross-class concept of GW.

Undressed · Sep 03, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventius Hozza

Why should an Assassin/Ranger get more critical strikes with a bow? You're trying to undo the whole cross-class concept of GW.

Not at all. The Assassin pays the full energy costs for any ranger skills he's attempting to use. Wanna play crit-cripshotter? CG-Assassin? Its level of effectiveness wouldn't even touch a Ranger's foot.
Why do you think elemental attunement was moved to energy storage? FC-Spike was way more dangerous than the same through primary Elementalists. When a primary class gets less and less significant, there's a problem.

Undressed · Sep 03, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

/edit:
Besides, after reading this:

I had a good laugh. It's basically like saying: I'm right. Everyone who doesn't have my opinion is wrong. That's not actually a discussion here as it allready makes it quite clear that you're immune to arguments, facts and logical explanations - you won't accept them because they "don't count".

Chill, maybe bad english on my side. I tend to read arguments like "go diversion, touch, cripple, degen, blind bla bla him and stop whining noob stfu kkthxbye". That's exactly not what the topic was about or I wanted to hear because it exists in every complaint-thread. I am not looking for counters to those builds, I've killed loads of them and got killed too of course. ;-)

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 03, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

It's just that the ranger class has the potential to be the VERY best at the cheese builds.
A)When a R/N can out damage a primary Nec there is something wrong
B)when a thumper can spam skills and also own a hammer war 1vs1 something is wrong,when stupid skills like ferocious strike are put in to encourage such lame builds, somethings wrong
I can go on and on about many skills in guild wars
When a stupid illusion mes can rape the floor with illusionary weaponry,out damage and evade any melee class, somethings wrong.
IMO tons of stupid skills GW has on certain classes which I fail to see why they would put them in?To piss people off?
Don't bother listing counters, I'm well aware of them. A cripshot/apply pos can usually take these classes down, but if I go make that char idiots will end up attacking the R/N so he heals himself, or Murphy's law will kick in and you'll go up against a blindbot on the same team

GW has way too many skill options/combos, not enough counters, and the game will keep going this way, chapter3 shall be a blast if you enjoy craptastic randomness.
These lame builds really shine when someone just wants to do some quick RA.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 03, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

As primary attributes go, Expertise is the best energy management there is. Critical Strikes is the only thing that comes close, and that's under ideal conditions like opponents that don't kite or low-cost IAS. In practice, a ranger is going to get a lot more energy through Expertise than an assassin gets through critical strikes because all the ranger has to do is use his skills.

Without Expertise, most ranger skills are also quite overpriced. They're priced around the use of Expertise, which is why you rarely see ranger skills used on a secondary. The exception is stuff like spirits, which are cheap and which the Ritualist primary attribute allows them to spam a little better in some cases.

With the relative power of Expertise, it's almost a suprise that there aren't more overpowered skill combinations than there actually are. The ability to spam any energy-based non-spell is quite powerful, but there are only a few widely-accepted uses for it.

It's interesting to note that almost all the uses of Expertise on non-ranger skills are skirting the edge of overpowered. Thumpers, while not necessarily overpowered, are extremely strong in pressure builds. Distortion makes a ranger primary nearly invincible and free of positioning concerns on the battlefield. Touch rangers are overpowered in a different way - the same mindless spam both heals them and applies DPS, so complete noobs can play the build and have a lot more success than with anything else.

Overall, I wouldn't mind a minor nerf to Expertise as it applies to non-ranger skills. The current skill combinations are on the edge of overpowered, and I think as more chapters come out we'll see a lot overpowered combinations appearing (ie: Ranger/Paragon.) It doesn't seem right to keep nerfing the secondary class skills, rather than just changing Expertise so it allows for less spam on non-ranger skills.

If it isn't nerfed, no big deal. It's more for future chapters and skillsets where I think a skill like Expertise will inevitably get overpowered. It's just waiting for the right combination of perfectly reasonable skills, which well get too strong when over-spammed.

TheOneMephisto · Sep 03, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

The problem is that if they nerf expertise then many many ranger builds will become unplayable. Without expertise, ranger skills are just rediculously overpriced. It's kind of the same way that ele skills are priced based off the fact that the makers assume that they will have energy storage (even though it doesn't really work as well in that case). I mean, if you've ever tried playing a ranger without expertise, you get beaten down by energy extremely fast.

I guess they could nerf expertise then lower ranger skill costs, but it seems like a kind of huge nerf. Or they could try to make expertise less viable on non-ranger skills. Both of these options seem kind of... meh though.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 03, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

expertise makes sense from a creative standpoint: they are 'experts' at something, and therefore do things better than other classes.

I don't think bunny thumpers or touch rangers are significantly overpowered. Hammer mastery shouldn't be so energy heavy; that alone would make hammer warriors stronger. Touch skills are kinda silly, but unless you're someplace like random arena/alliance battle/random other low-end pvp nonsense, they're not that much of a threat.

Additionally, as has been noted, ranger skills need expertise to be viable. Ranger paragons were proven to be slightly overpowered over that particular weekend, perhaps make them MORE energy heavy and give paragons a larger energy pool...problem somewhat solved perhaps? There are better things to do in this game than talk about a game mechanic put in from the beginning that was actually reworded to encourage this strategy, then to cry for a nerf just because it's such a great primary attribute to use.

the only thing i want, as far as primary attributes are concerned, is to buff strength.

Allmightybob · Sep 03, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Rangers were awful in beta back when they didn't have expertise.

Rangers need expertise or else they'll never able to use their skills frequently enough. Thumpers and Touch Rangers are not THAT good enough builds to warrant a nerf.

warriorsmiley · Sep 03, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Doing that would almost make the rangers useless. Only thing rangers would be able to do is use rangers skills which isnt the way the game works. Whats the point of me having a secondary period as a ranger they might as well not even introduce you to other class trainers then in pve. If thats the case lets not make critical hits work on anything else but daggers, fast casting only effects mesmer skills, mysticism only works with dervish enchantments, forgot what the paragons attribute is but lets make that only work on paragon shouts. Why should I be limited on what skills i should bring because my primary attribute works so well with what im using my secondary for?

I see you mentioned arenas most likely meaning RA and TA. There already is a thread on how to win there you basically have to know what common builds your gonna face there and set yourself up to deal with it.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 03, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

A nerf to Expertise does not necessarily have to weaken it as Ranger energy management. A better choice if you wanted to nerf would be reducing or removing its effect on non-ranger skills. As mentioned, ranger skills are priced for use under Expertise and you are supposed to be able to spam. The only balance issues that ever arise with Expertise come from using secondary class skills for a price much lower than they were intended.

Loch · Sep 03, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Or they could try to make expertise less viable on non-ranger skills.

If they were going to do anything about Expertise, that would be it. Expertise by all means should still work on non-ranger skills, and nerfing Expertise on primary rangers isn't called for at all, so why not reduce its effectiveness on professions that were designed around it?

Ventius Hozza · Sep 03, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Just for the record, FCAir was nerfed because it was massively overpowered. Basically if you came against it in GvG, unless you were:

very lucky,

had a build to counter it (ward vs harm, elements, MoL and elemental resistance anyone?)

or very very good then you were toast.

Touchers and thumpers are nowhere near as effective as FCAir was.

Patrograd · Sep 03, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventius Hozza

Touchers and thumpers are nowhere near as effective as FCAir was.

Thumpers are pretty close to be fair. Touchers are useless in anything but RA, but thumpers are a powerful force across all forms of PVP. I dont think they will nerf expertise, and I'm not sure they should. Probably, as is usually the case, it pays to buff the counters rather than nerf useful abilities

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 04, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

how exactly ranger skills are overpriced? 5-15 energy with +3 regen seems more than reasonable. Wanna see overpriced skills, go look at elementalist.