Curse

DieInBasra · Apr 29, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

It's quite the situation you're making up. Assassin's aren't the new metagame, and even if they were, Extinguish won't help against condition stacking on a single target like assassin's do. Extinguish is yet to be a "needed" skill, and if it is, then it won't replace Orb on an air ele in a adren-spike group. Extinguish might take the place of Draw or HP, but it's not absolutly nessisary. Eles are great at utility, but they're also very helpful in a spike.

And bringing up a single example for observer mode is lame. I've seen alot of guilds running assassin and getting thier face rocked, so it can swing either way.

cookiemonkie · Apr 29, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Making up? Nah, thats the fact of what the assassin class is used for and why it has 50% speed boost. Its not that difficult to figure out what skills are useful for which sort of cordinated attacks. Whoever threats and plays the assassin as it it were a high armor adrenaline tank deserves to have their face bashed in. If you haven't figured out why assassin skills are so condition based and hex based = coordinated attack... You shouldn't criticize the profession expecially being with it being so new.

Extinguish will be used simply for what you just mentioned, free up a skill a couple of skill slots for others. Most teams haven't used it yet, that doesn't mean anything. Seen too many examples of this throughout the balance changes.... recent example being Mo/N and Holy Viel -> Mo/Me and Inspired Hex. Yeah some said 20% sacrafice was no big deal and yet a week later they switched to Mo/Me's

Wasteland Squidget · Apr 29, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

Making up? Nah, thats the fact of what the assassin class is used for and why it has 50% speed boost. Its not that difficult to figure out what skills are useful for which sort of cordinated attacks. Whoever threats and plays the assassin as it it were a high armor adrenaline tank deserves to have their face bashed in. If you haven't figured out why assassin skills are so condition based and hex based = coordinated attack... You shouldn't criticize the profession expecially being with it being so new.

You're going to have to enlighten me as to how being 'coordinated' is going to prevent your 70 AL target in the opposing backline from getting spiked. I can see doing it with maintained Recall, but that's not without drawbacks and you lose a lot of your consistent DPS power because you're down a pip of regen.

What do you mean by "coordinated attack" anyway? Like warrior teams aren't coordinated? If you can do a coordinated attack with assassins, why can't you do it with warriors and get more damage out of your spikes? Let's hear some actual skills and builds, rather than just random comments about how much assassins own without any support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

Extinguish will be used simply for what you just mentioned, free up a skill a couple of skill slots for others. Most teams haven't used it yet, that doesn't mean anything. Seen too many examples of this throughout the balance changes.... recent example being Mo/N and Holy Viel -> Mo/Me and Inspired Hex. Yeah some said 20% sacrafice was no big deal and yet a week later they switched to Mo/Me's

What does your example have to do with anything? What skills is Extinguish replacing on other people's bars? Have you even run with these skills in GvG?

Jagan Vastary · Apr 29, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

I guess you haven't seen a few observer matches of a few of the Assassin front builds running around with shadow refuge.

I don't know about you, but I think shadow refuge has to be the worst self heal for an assassin. It only heals for a decent amount if you are attacking when it ends, but if you are in need of healing, your sin shouldn't be attacking, he should be running back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

I don't remember the guilds name but they went from unranked to top 100 in a single day beating some top 20 balanced build guilds along the way. Gaurdian is nothing if the monk waste their Contemplation of purity and then have rigor mortis on them and covered, thats why COP was nerfed... and thats what rigor mortis is for.

Why not just go with a warrior based team and do this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I can see doing it with maintained Recall, but that's not without drawbacks and you lose a lot of your consistent DPS power because you're down a pip of regen.

I suggest taking a look at Aura of Displacement. I think its the best elite for an assassin that I have seen, and it has perfect synergy with Golden Phoenix Strike, which is an offhand attack that lets you go straight offhand-dual instead of using one of the lead attacks, which seem to be generally not very good, not to mention a slower path to the more powerful dual attacks.

Rieselle · Apr 30, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In PvE all of this is irrelevant because you hit the armor wall. A normal, level 28 monster has 24 more armor than a level 20 monster of the same type. That means that elementalists naturally deal 33% less damage in PvE than in PvP - except in the case of air which deals 27% less. Warriors and rangers only hit the wall about half as hard with their skills because of the significant armor ignorning component they have - they generally deal around 15% less damage to level 28 monsters with their skills. Necromancers and mesmers of course have armor ignoring damage so they go right around all of this.

I've held this opinion silently for a long time... I can't help but think that this is a design flaw so massive as to be almost a "Bug That Turned Into A Feature (tm)".

In a game where we have "armor penetration" skills (which, ironically, are better used against poorly armored targets than well armored ones), and "armor ignoring" skills (obs flame and crystal wave etc.)...

Why on earth do the majority of skills effective against armor NOT have these two classifications in their skill description?? And why does a large majority of attack skills in the game perform better against armored opponents than those skills marked "armor penetrating" or "armor ignoring" ???

I can just imagine a beginner, a budding theorycrafter fresh from reading the manual, go like, "Ok, I'm a-gonna be an anti-warrior guy, so I'll take Air Magic because it has Armor Penetration." to which we all reply... "errr.. armour penetration is not intended for use against warriors...."

It'd be a huge change that will never happen, but I think any form of damage not specifically marked "armor ignoring" should be reduced by armor. Lifesteals, +damage, "additional damage", mesmer damage etc. Then they can carefully think about which skills from all classes they actually want to be armor-ignoring, and label them as such.

(Eg. "Order of the Vampire. All do +5 life stealing that ignores armor. etc")

After this "bug" is fixed, -then- we can make meaningful balancing to damage values, armor values and all that stuff.

Only then will the whole damage/armor/attack model in the game "make sense". Not that it really needs to, though. I just have some bizarre fetish about my fantasy/sci fi having stated logical rules of physics and magic, and being internally consistent with those rules.

Zorian Direspell · May 02, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I second the notion that life steals and shadow damage and mesmer hex damage and etc. should be armor blocked like ele skills, if only so that other classes would more readily understand the hardships of being an elementalist. (Then I would hope that the community in general would scream in frustration and get Anet to change it for everyone, elementalists included).

I think Anet is trying to figure out the Elementalist gradually. They probably had fears that the elementalist would become like the Sorceresses of ... another game.

To prevent that from happening, Anet sat down and locked the Ele at every end, to wit: 1) Over-long cast times, 2) Massive energy depletion, 3) Easily prevented attacks, 4) Poor defense and 5) Generally low damage. The problem with Anet's paranoia is that it reduced the elementalist from the state of a potentially game imbalancing demigod of untold occult might wielding a staff of the magi and a bag of wish scrolls to that of an almost impotent wannabe armed with the equivalent of four scrolls of magic missile and a bag of chex mix. (I apologize if the analogy is arcane ... ba dum bum).

Recent trends have shown Anet cautiously trying to reduce recharge times and make skills cost less or cast a little faster. I'm not sure that helps much, for all the reasons the original OP mentioned. Unless Anet provides more spammables, Eles have too long a wait in between ineffectual damage spells, reducing their efficiency per battle. I would personally like to see secondary effects on damaging spells a'la Deep Freeze provided more frequently and evenly throughout the elemental lines. Knockback, mass deep wound, weakness and other such effects tied to the damage skills for free (obviously not all) would justify both the great cost and the greater recharge time while making eles more like ritualists in their play style. (I.E. Do things slowly or maybe once per combat, but make sure that thing has a lasting effect on the rest of the fight ... which would enhance the elementalist's 'presence' as mentioned in another thread).

Wasteland Squidget · May 02, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorian Direspell

I second the notion that life steals and shadow damage and mesmer hex damage and etc. should be armor blocked like ele skills, if only so that other classes would more readily understand the hardships of being an elementalist. (Then I would hope that the community in general would scream in frustration and get Anet to change it for everyone, elementalists included).

The solution to Elementalist skills being useless isn't to nerf all other forms of spell damage onto the Ele's crappy level. At the moment Necro and Mesmer damage has a place in a build, largely because of its armor/prot-ignoring component. If you take that out you'll just make more Necro and Mesmer skills useless, which would exacerbate rather than fix the problem.

Zorian Direspell · May 03, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Hehe. I know that's not the solution (in terms of game balance). See the "cry of frustration" part of the quote you so quoted.

I was saying that it would be fun to do that so that everyone, not just elementalist players, would want the issue tackled. See how defensive you got when I mentioned it? Play a mesmer much?

Rieselle · May 04, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The solution to Elementalist skills being useless isn't to nerf all other forms of spell damage onto the Ele's crappy level. At the moment Necro and Mesmer damage has a place in a build, largely because of its armor/prot-ignoring component. If you take that out you'll just make more Necro and Mesmer skills useless, which would exacerbate rather than fix the problem.

My post suggested a 2-part solution. Make the armor-ignoring system consistent, and THEN assign the armor-ignore property to the skills that you want, and adjust other types of damage accordingly.

Also I wasn't talking about "fixing" elementalists specifically, more that the entire system of armor and damage is pretty ad-hoc and isnt very well thought out.

At the moment, elementalists are the only class where the majority of their damage skills have no armor-ignoring component. (Ritualist Channeling, as well, now.)

To make elems comparable in damage potential vs. max level enemies as the system stands would require the damage to be increased to levels where the numbers are ridiculous.

The other alternative is to give elems many high-damage spells with an armour ignoring component (eg, if target has a water hex, he takes +43 additional damage sort of thing).

But if that was the case, then labels "Armor penetrating" and "Armor Ignoring" become even more watered down, which is silly IMO.

Oh, and if everything was "working as intended" and Necros / Mesmers are SUPPOSED to be the damage dealers of choice against lvl20+, non-soft targets, then it should be documented as such.

"Elementalist: This class deals high damage from afar against unarmored and low level targets."

"Necro: Does necro stuff etc.... This class ignores armor..."

"Mesmer: Does mesmer stuff etc... This class ignores armor..."

"Warrior: Hits things...etc... This class mostly ignores armor..."

"Ranger: Does ranger stuff... this class mostly ignores armor, especially when buffed..."

Zhou Feng · May 04, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

After looking over this profession's skill list for a long time and really thinking about the skills, I don't think as many are really as bad as I've made them look in the past. Instead I think that there's a philosophical problem with the way elementalists are set up.

The textbook example of this is Lightning Orb. I've played with the skill for nearly a year and while I kinda understood it in the back of my mind I didn't really get it to click until a few weeks ago. Orb is strictly a spike skill. If you treat it strictly as a spike skill, only throwing it at a target on a called spike or to assist warriors it's pretty decent. It's a bit spendy, but aren't spike skills in general? The problem is not Lightning Orb, but what Lightning Orb being a spike skill means. Tossing around Orbs randomly is about as productive as randomly Eviscerating people. You need to be casting more efficient things when you're not spiking, in the air ele's case...Lightning Strike, and uh, I guess Chain Lightning if nothing ever moves.

That is the real problem.

Every profession has some money things that it can do, skills they can use to change the course of a fight in the right situation. Elementalists, while we can debate the power of some of their tools, are not lacking in this department. They can help spike down a key target, punish a team with AoE, or drop Wards on an important tactical point. These money skills are either on longish recast times or restricted by situational usefulness. What characters need besides those big skills are some generally productive things to do until the time is right. Warriors can beat on things while rangers use preparations to spread conditions. Necromancers spread hexes around, monks use some smaller spot defenses, and mesmers are just one long skill list of generally useful goodies. Elementalists, by large, do not have good spammables to contribute even when they can't shine.

I think this is most apparent when you look at the water line. Water has a lot of good spells. Deep Freeze is worth every drop of energy and time you put into it with its excellent AoE and strong snare effect. Blurred Vision can stop a warrior spike and will make them scream for hex removal in any case. Shard Storm is good as a situational offensive snare to let your guys get to a target. Ice Spikes is less clear in its usage but it certainly isn't bad. What's the problem then? Well, what does a water elementalist do when he's not applying a Deep Freeze or his situationally useful stuff isn't called for? The only good answer I've seen so far is 'run a flag', which sums up the issue pretty clearly.

If elementalists aren't money, they don't do anything.

You see the profession run heavily as a utility class because that's where he can get spammables from other professions. Heal Party is the only spammable money skill in the game so it's a no-brainer for an ele to be in love with the thing. Being able to toss around, or Draw off, blinds gives an ele something spammable to do that's productive. Even going into mesmer for something like Conjure Phantasm can be incredibly productive for an elementalist, since it gives him something else productive to do while waiting for an opportunity for his money to shine.

I think that elementalists running Conjure Phantasm to help them deal damage is a clear sign that something is seriously, seriously wrong.

Which, circularly, brings us back to Lightning Orb. It's a fine spike skill. It drives me mad because I want a second spammable on an air elementalist to feel as though I'm really being productive offensively, to be able to put some even fleeting pressure on an opponent. I thought for a long time that Orb was supposed to be just that, but it isn't. It's a specialized skill, and I won't begrudge that role. The skill that I feel needs to exist for air elementalists to be a real offensive threat simply does not exist. The same is true for water and earth elementalists - fire gets a pass because while its spammables are atrocious at least the concepts are there for buffing.

For all the flack elementalists get, they do have a lot of skills that are actually ok. They just need some high-utility glue to hold them all together.

Peace,
-CxE

According to the setup Elementalists Utility seems to be:

Air AP attacks and Blind effects, also has some KD. Mostly used for Spike Damage as you mentioned.

Earth defense, snares, knockdown moves.

Fire AoE Nukes, burning effect

Water defense, snares

Problem is many of the actual utility skills have slow recharge or slow cast or like Gale Exhaustion tagged to it.

If Elementalists had actual utility skills within their repertoire THAT are readily spammable while they wait to shine theyd be a lot more efficient. I wish there where four skills or so that where low cost 10 energy to less, spammable as in 5 seconds to less recharge, fast casting as 1 second to less and causing NO exhaustion whatsoever WHILE BEING ACTUALLY USEFUL for each of the lines. Id love to see some enchantment utility skills within their lines as well as hexes with the afore mentioned descriptions. And Id love to see more ways for Elementalists to not only manage energy better (Lower some of the costs maybe) but also reduce/speed Exhaustion recovery.

EDIT: Perhaps for every point in Energy Storage you gain 3.5% speed recovery from Exhaustion.
At 16 that would be a 56% recovery speed from exhaustion. Usually Exhaustion takes thirty seconds to recover fully from at 1 energy every 3 seconds.
At a 56% speed recovery the energy would be regained every 1.32 seconds.

At 10 that would be a 35% recovery speed from exhaustion.
At a 35% speed recovery the energy would be regained at every 1.95 second.

Finally add a skill to Energy Storage:
Elementalists' Focus (stance)
10 energy - 40 recharge time
For the next 10-15 seconds you recover from Exhaustion at 1 energy per second.

That would help deal with one of Elementalists biggest drawback: Exhaustion.

As for energy costs of spell lower there cost a bit to make them more useful.

Glyph of Sacrifice instant cast should give a less harsh delay to recharge time maybe of 20 seconds(?)

Xpl0iter · May 05, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

i wonder where people do use sacrifice glyph, not sure, trying to figure out, maybe i havnt touch those skills where i could use it affectively

Kyune · May 05, 2006, 11:33 AM // 11:33

In my experience, Glyph of Sacrifice tends to fall in the area of having potentially cool uses--except skill bars built on cool don't generally hold up under stress.

Glyph of Essence, on the other hand, looks like it was made to go with ether prodigy. Whether or not it will produce anything workable is another matter, though.

As a side note on the issue of energy management, I did some poking around with auspicious incantation: Using glyph of renewal on the next spell, that spell will still recharge instantly.

On the other hand, Using glyph of energy on the next spell...well, you're certainly going to gain lots and lots of energy but whether or not anyone's playing spells they can afford to fuel it with is another matter entirely.

icemonkey · May 05, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I must admit that I have not read the vast vast majority of this thread, but i think i know the locus of what ensign was trying to bring up.

This may have been brought up before, if so ignore me.

How do you feel about the change of Maelstorm to a 2 second cast from wahtever ungodly long time it was before. Since then this skill has been showing up on stuff I play and my guildies play. I still think it is most useful for hokey shit like morons camping in wards or the ele shrine on alliance battles, BUT I think the change in this skill is a step in the right direction. Its priced more "aggressively" now in terms of cast time and you can generally get it where you want it when you want it. Any thoughts?

Ensign · May 05, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

i wonder where people do use sacrifice glyph, not sure, trying to figure out, maybe i havnt touch those skills where i could use it affectively

The best use of the skill I know of is to force Well of the Profane onto the dais in the Hall of Heroes. Beyond that it has some fringe uses with, say, a hard res, but nothing very popular. Basically it's two slots for something you're not going to use very often, and that's hard to justify a lot of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

How do you feel about the change of Maelstorm to a 2 second cast from wahtever ungodly long time it was before.

It was a good change, now you can actually aim the spell. Maelstrom is still too expensive, though. You can't support Maelstrom + Deep Freeze, and Deep Freeze is like 10x better, *and* cheaper (no exhaustion). Another issue with the skill is that in environments where you might want it, the water line tends to be fairly poor (I.E., it's nice to drop on the dais or on mobs in PvE, but water isn't very good on those maps). The exception to this is the new 12v12 environment, where water is fairly good and Maelstrom is nice for hitting those shrines. I'm just not sure you can really afford either the cost or the slot on that character.

Peace,
-CxE

Dr Strangelove · May 05, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Spammability has always been one of my biggest issues with ele's (while using ele skills). Honestly, I haven't found a great answer to it. My best idea thus far has been to toss in serpent's quickness so I can use my "money" spells more often. The spells meant to be spammable, like flare and such, are hardly worth the time and energy needed for them. I'm curious to see if lightning hammer will replace orb based on it's 100% hit rate, and gust seems like a very effective skill as well (Ice prison + gust pretty much is a 100% shutdown for a melee character). I tihnk the best solution to this is not giving more spammable skills... the ones I see right now are pretty much beyond worth using. Perhaps decreasing the recharges on those big 30 second recharge spells would actually make them worth using. I guess we sit and wait for Anet to take action on those, until then it's wards or heal party spam for me :P.

Wasteland Squidget · May 05, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It was a good change, now you can actually aim the spell. Maelstrom is still too expensive, though. You can't support Maelstrom + Deep Freeze, and Deep Freeze is like 10x better, *and* cheaper (no exhaustion). Another issue with the skill is that in environments where you might want it, the water line tends to be fairly poor (I.E., it's nice to drop on the dais or on mobs in PvE, but water isn't very good on those maps). The exception to this is the new 12v12 environment, where water is fairly good and Maelstrom is nice for hitting those shrines. I'm just not sure you can really afford either the cost or the slot on that character.

I'm interested in Maelstrom at the moment, and I think it actually does have some GvG potential. One thing to note is that it can be played perfectly well at 0 attribute - the interruption is the key effect, not the damage, and only the damage scales with water magic. It actually fits a little better on an air ele, since he typically has more space on his bar, and his spammable skills don't outdo Maelstrom in every situation.

The spell has several situational uses...

-It's an awesome way to stop Ward camping. I've been seeing a lot of builds in GvG these days running wards, and throwing a Maelstrom into the wards before adrenal spikes can screw up their prevention a lot. Effectively, their monks have nowhere safe to kite to since anywhere inside the ward is going to prevent them casting.

-Some places on GvG maps are enclosed enough that a properly placed Maelstrom can turn the tide of a battle. The vine seed bridges in Druid's Isle are an excellent example - throwing a Maelstrom on this is going to seriously hinder the enemy team if that's where the fight is taking place.

-It's a nice spell to have when assaulting a turtled opponent, or fighting their NPCs at the flagstand. An early Maelstrom on the bodyguards can really screw up their spell chain, especially with how bunched up they usually get at VoD. This reduces a lot of damage on your team.

The problem is, outside of the situations where it rocks, the spell is pretty crap. If you're fighting a team that's not using wards and you aren't in any situations where AoE shines, it's going to be a waste of 25 energy. I wouldn't sacrifice anything major for it, but putting it on a character who already has other stuff to do isn't necessarily a bad choice.

Ensign · May 05, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

One thing to note is that it can be played perfectly well at 0 attribute - the interruption is the key effect, not the damage, and only the damage scales with water magic. It actually fits a little better on an air ele, since he typically has more space on his bar, and his spammable skills don't outdo Maelstrom in every situation.

I agree that it's not something that you need to spec to max to make effective (similar to how Meteor Shower can be used at low spec since it's mostly for the knockdowns). I don't feel that I'd have room for it on an air elementalist though, not with the other important things he could have on his bar. I've found myself cutting the Lightning Strike on air guys pretty often for more utility...it just doesn't do enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Effectively, their monks have nowhere safe to kite to since anywhere inside the ward is going to prevent them casting.

Oh I wish that was true, but it most certainly isn't. The AoE on a Maelstrom is 1/4 the size of a Ward. It'd stop the guy in the middle from casting it in the same place, but players on the edges of an existing ward would be perfectly safe. The skill would have some value from making them move the ward, if you dropped it on the warder right before the ward was to expire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

-Some places on GvG maps are enclosed enough that a properly placed Maelstrom can turn the tide of a battle. The vine seed bridges in Druid's Isle are an excellent example - throwing a Maelstrom on this is going to seriously hinder the enemy team if that's where the fight is taking place.

If they're bodyblocking the bridge with casters who need to cast, sure. If they use warriors, or are going for a bodyblock-fed gank, it really doesn't do a whole lot, especially if unspecced. The value of the skill is that it forces people to move if they want to be able to cast. The trouble is that situations where people don't want to move at all are fairly rare, even in a ward you want to be running in circles. Stopping someone from moving is so much more valuable than making them move, especially when the only source of damage in the game is melee. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

-It's a nice spell to have when assaulting a turtled opponent, or fighting their NPCs at the flagstand.

Eh, I'm not terribly impressed by small AoEs when attacking a turtled opponent (from playing with a fire guy in that environment) - but that's not a part of the game that you really focus on. You want to play to force them back there, not build to win games you should be winning anyway. I do like the AoE a lot for VoD situations, it can rip through archer stacks quickly. Getting their bodyguards caught in a Maelstrom would be hot. Is that worth carting through the rest of the match?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The problem is, outside of the situations where it rocks, the spell is pretty crap.

Well that's the nature of a 25 energy skill - particularly one that causes exhaustion. If it's not going to be rocking you don't want to invest in it. The problem with the skill in my mind is that it's in direct competition with Deep Freeze for a slot - maybe you can support both, but I don't think so - and Deep Freeze is just so much more devastating in so many more situations. 4x the AoE, prevents movement instead of forcing it, cheaper (no exhaustion), faster recharge. I don't dislike the effect of Maelstrom, but it's simply not on a power level where I can see spending a slot on it just yet.

Peace,
-CxE

cookiemonkie · May 07, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagan Vastary

I don't know about you, but I think shadow refuge has to be the worst self heal for an assassin. It only heals for a decent amount if you are attacking when it ends, but if you are in need of healing, your sin shouldn't be attacking, he should be running back.

Agreed, any decent assassin build will use aura of displacement to teleport back, rather than run back. Aura of displacement is THE skill to use... Teleport to any NPC Choose your lead attack followed by Golden Lotus or Phoenix strike (archer/footman or bodygaurd), Horns of Ox, lead attack again, Falling Spiker.... Unmaintain Aura of displacement and heal back up. NPC is dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagan Vastary

Why not just go with a warrior based team and do this?

Different classes that work in different ways, warriors for constant pressure and assassins to finish of stragglers or teleport into back line to cause pressure. Yes the Assassin is a 70AL target, does frenzy's downside justify not using the skill on a warrior? Aura of displacement... hit your attack combos and teleport out. If armor is such a concern then use an A/W stick 8-9 attribute points into tactics and use disciplined stance, since the attributes are there minus well take along healing signet to use along with disciplined stance.

trialist · May 08, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Actually you guys are looking at shadow refuge the wrong way, it isn’t exactly a self heal as it is a tanking skill. The whole part about it healing you if you are attacking when it ends should have clued you in. Thus you want to use it when you are a quarter or a third injured and your target isn’t yet down so you cast shadow refuge, tank for the final kill then get out. It’s basically a skill to maintain a high health. You shouldn’t be using it as a self heal on low health, better to just teleport out and let your real healers do the job.

As for assassins, i can’t really see an assassin replacing a warrior in any way though. They might be nice as sneak attackers but they lack what a warrior is able to do: keep one target busy by raging on him, and then immediately switching to another target and adrenaline spiking him. That is, what he does on one target actually counts if he decides to switch to another. For the assassin, well if you switch targets, you will have to wait for your energy, health, or skills to recharge to be able to do another hit and run, and you start all over again from the first of your chain, unlike the warrior who has a nice adrenaline combo waiting for you from his previous target.

cookiemonkie · May 08, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Baring energy denial, energy isn't an issue with the assassin if you use zealous weapons. I haven't bothered timing it myself, but the assassin's attack rate feels about the same as a sword warrior. It doesn't take but a couple of seconds to regain 5 energy from the zealous weapons. At any rate, the ability of the assassin to solo NPCs faster than a ranger can dream of and just about any class does have its place in GvG builds.