Curse

Thom Bangalter · Oct 22, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

From the same link about having PVP characters with multiple armor sets:
"And for everyone out there who likes to play a little GvG, we’ve upgraded Observer Mode to include recent GvG battles by your guild. We’re hoping this will really help players develop their skills in GvG…plus it’s cool to be able to watch a replay of yourself."

What a great feature for players! I think this feature alone is really going to help teams improve as far as tactical decisions and such are concerned. Way to go Anet. For as much crap as you get, you still know how to improve the game for the pvpers from time to time.

stueyman2099 · Oct 23, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

sounds awesome. I remember my first few matches being in the top 100. It's freaking awesome to go back and watch.

My 2 cents on the obs mode topic~
I want the ability to download the replay file to my compy and be able to open it up with guild wars anytime. This IMO would be freaking awesome (I seem to like that word today), and completley take away the need to have someone fraps the match and post it up on file front or what ever (though the dl'ed files would likely have a place there.)

Back on topic; good job Anet.

fenix · Oct 23, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Finally! I've been waiting for this for ages, it'll be good to watch matches, see what was good/bad/otherwise when you aren't top 100.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

I want the ability to download the replay file to my compy and be able to open it up with guild wars anytime. This IMO would be freaking awesome (I seem to like that word today), and completley take away the need to have someone fraps the match and post it up on file front or what ever (though the dl'ed files would likely have a place there.)

This would be pretty awesome, though there are almost certainly some implementation issues. Patches have a tendency to screw up saved replays, since minor changes to skill design can have major effects on the outcome of a game. If I just just barely kill someone with Final Thrust, then Final Thrust is nerfed to to do less damage, the game has to have a way of remember the old version of the skill. Otherwise I won't appear to kill the person in the replay and the course of the match will be thrown way off.

On topic - awesome feature. I think this will help a lot of guilds out.

Oct 23, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

It would also be nice to be able to switch to a first person mode in obs where you could see things through a single player's eyes. Would help people to understand monking choice better, in my opion. Either way though, a big improvement.

Tainek · Oct 23, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

This would be pretty awesome, though there are almost certainly some implementation issues. Patches have a tendency to screw up saved replays, since minor changes to skill design can have major effects on the outcome of a game. If I just just barely kill someone with Final Thrust, then Final Thrust is nerfed to to do less damage, the game has to have a way of remember the old version of the skill. Otherwise I won't appear to kill the person in the replay and the course of the match will be thrown way off.

On topic - awesome feature. I think this will help a lot of guilds out.

bad logic, if this was true, then for example using a Axe on an enemy, it does 8-28 + Mods, it hit for just 8 last time, but hits for 28 on replay?

No , if this was implemented, it would be X Stikes Y using final blow, did 25+82 Damage (Meaning patches are irrelevant)

to clarify:

you said it would screw up if written X Stikes Y With Final Blow

Whereas in reality, if a smart coder wrote this, it would be

X Strikes Y With Final Blow, Dealing 25+82 Damage
Y Dies

Patccmoi · Oct 23, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Patch would still likely be an issue. I know for example that when i was playing WC3 at every patch the previous replays wouldn't work anymore.

That being said, i wouldn't have a problem with it in particular. It's not like there is a patch that changes skills or the like every 2 days. If you can save it and something is so good that you want to keep it through every patches, THEN frap it. Would also take out the 'time limit' to watch a game, which is annoying when for example you fought a really crazy game that you wanna obs but then again doing so means 1-2 less games you have time to play because you have to watch it NOW or it won't be there anymore.

But either way, this is already a very good addition. Some of the best matches we got were against some teams out of the top 100 and i would've loved to obs them. Also nice if you have more than 8 and some people are benching since at least they can obs every game your team is playing.

Mr Urthadar · Oct 23, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

bad logic, if this was true, then for example using a Axe on an enemy, it does 8-28 + Mods, it hit for just 8 last time, but hits for 28 on replay?

No , if this was implemented, it would be X Stikes Y using final blow, did 25+82 Damage (Meaning patches are irrelevant)

to clarify:

you said it would screw up if written X Stikes Y With Final Blow

Whereas in reality, if a smart coder wrote this, it would be

X Strikes Y With Final Blow, Dealing 25+82 Damage
Y Dies

A smart coder would not keep the computed damage. Why would you think this?

AFAIK, there aren't any skills that do random damage. That is all damage, is scaled in one way or another using some formula. If you have the formula, why would you store each computed damage?

Think of it like this (assuming you're a `coder'). GW is a DFA, not an NDFA, (yeah I realize NDFA's are really complicated DFA's) so given the same inputs, you ought to get the same outputs. No need to store the output of each skill.

So, I agree with Squidget, subsequent skill updates could very well screw up replays. Unless, of course, anet tracked skill deltas with the replays. That is, `snapshot' all the skills being used as they were for that match. Then skill changes will be irrelevant.

ju

Drewfense · Oct 23, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

From the same link about having PVP characters with multiple armor sets:
"And for everyone out there who likes to play a little GvG, we’ve upgraded Observer Mode to include recent GvG battles by your guild. We’re hoping this will really help players develop their skills in GvG…plus it’s cool to be able to watch a replay of yourself."

Is giving obs to everyone worth the expanded server load and subsequent lag? (and is giving PvP characters more armor/weapon sets worth waiting an additional 20 minutes for people to roll?)

DieInBasra · Oct 23, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Templates and pvp weapon crafters ingame mean that rerolling will porbably be alot quicker. Dunno about server lag though.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 23, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

giving obs to everyone is indeed worht the expanded server load. As for multiple armor sets, they may have to reroll once, but they can keep that character indefinetly. So if you know someone that plays 3-4 characters really well but he has no one pvp ready, he can just keep those pvp guys ready, hanging around. Also, I don't think I've ever had that many problems with people rerolling that 20 minutes is a realistic amount. It just seems like 20.

stueyman2099 · Oct 23, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Urthadar

A smart coder would not keep the computed damage. Why would you think this?

AFAIK, there aren't any skills that do random damage. That is all damage, is scaled in one way or another using some formula. If you have the formula, why would you store each computed damage?

Think of it like this (assuming you're a `coder'). GW is a DFA, not an NDFA, (yeah I realize NDFA's are really complicated DFA's) so given the same inputs, you ought to get the same outputs. No need to store the output of each skill.

So, I agree with Squidget, subsequent skill updates could very well screw up replays. Unless, of course, anet tracked skill deltas with the replays. That is, `snapshot' all the skills being used as they were for that match. Then skill changes will be irrelevant.

ju

In the case of most spells, this type of thing is true, however standard attacks are not always the same. Lets look at the axe. It deals between 6-28 damage everytime you swing. You have to record that number every time to keep the game the same each time. This works similarly with many attacks skills. When you use Eviscerate, the game generates the number between 6 and 28, then adds x damage to it (as well as other misc things such as your strength) So, in this case, yes each number would have to be recorded. Also, as a way to keep patches from interfering, I don't think it would take an incredible ammount of space to simply record all 128 skills and what they do in this particular match.

Tainek · Oct 23, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

In the case of most spells, this type of thing is true, however standard attacks are not always the same. Lets look at the axe. It deals between 6-28 damage everytime you swing. You have to record that number every time to keep the game the same each time. This works similarly with many attacks skills. When you use Eviscerate, the game generates the number between 6 and 28, then adds x damage to it (as well as other misc things such as your strength) So, in this case, yes each number would have to be recorded. Also, as a way to keep patches from interfering, I don't think it would take an incredible ammount of space to simply record all 128 skills and what they do in this particular match.

this man gets a cookie

it also applies to block/evade/blind chances as well

Gigashadow · Oct 24, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Also, as a way to keep patches from interfering, I don't think it would take an incredible ammount of space to simply record all 128 skills and what they do in this particular match.

That mechanism would only work if changes to skills were trivial, like the amount of damage they do. If the changes were something more semantic, then it is far less trivial to encode the complete logic of the skill into the output data.

deathy · Oct 24, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

The whole logic is stupid, when you watch a replay of any game, you are watching just that, a replay...

When you watch a film, you arn't constructing the visuals as you watch, you are simply watching it. In the same way you would just be watchign a replay rather than the computer playing it through.

Even if the computer did work it out as you watched it, then a chnage in a skill or game will just crash guildwars rather than alter the game. The replay can't show things that didnt happen, it's not like changing the future, because its just a replay...

TLLOTS · Oct 24, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

In the case of most spells, this type of thing is true, however standard attacks are not always the same. Lets look at the axe. It deals between 6-28 damage everytime you swing. You have to record that number every time to keep the game the same each time

That's not entierly accurate. Random number generators despite their name aren't really random, so it's entierly possible to simply save the seed value of the random number generator for each replay and generate exactly the same results. That said it still may not be the best approach, but it certainly could be an option.

Legendary Shiz · Oct 24, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I'd <3 replays like in WC3...I would sit and watch them all the time haha

Not to mention it makes it easier to put it out on the web and stuff. Just because they are in observer mode doesn't mean it's going to be there forever. Obviously you could still just fraps stuff, but having saved replays would be sweet.

moriz · Oct 24, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

i will get NF even if it contains only this feature, and nothing else.

gj anet.

i wonder though, how long will these replays be available?

Effigy · Oct 24, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Sounds awesome.

If they are going to save the data from these matches, it might be even better to add a search option to allow you to watch replays of recent matches of other guilds. Other than the search feature itself, this shouldn't add any additional server strain and I know a lot of players would be interested.