Curse

Nurse With Wound · Oct 04, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I hate this change. Our guild was formed in stable , balanced 8 man team in mind. We're feeling cheated by the developers. I have few friends in high ranked HA scene, the people who're spending most of their time in this arena. They are ALL very upset about the change, and many of them want to quit the game.

What was the point of ruining it for us , dedicated HA players? To please loud pve community? To please all those r3+ vimway farmers, because it will be easier to form their pug? Well that wont work believe, me and after shot excitement those pve people that are praising you at this thread will get bored of the new arena and will move back to pve. Simply because NIGHTFALL comes. Guess what , my guild doesnt care about new pve campaign, so what are we going to do, when you're runing our favorite game mode? The logical conclusion for us is to move on and find another pvp game, when the developers actually listen to the hardcore community not bunch of whiners. Is that your goal , anet? Do you want empty HA in one month time?

There are 3 types of serious guilds in this game. GVG ones, PVE ones, and HA ones. First two got all their goodies ( pve ones got huge boost when new campaign comes). What HA guilds are getting? NERF and kick in the ass? I seriously love this game, but this decision is forcing me to despise it.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 04, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

In the long term: "(says the nubs) my guild is too small to GvG

its not fair

We're great in HA and we want to compete. pweez make GvG 6v6 like HA so that we can play that too

"

Don't think it won't happen GvGers? Thats alright. Just keep in mind: last week I thought Anet knew better than to change HA to 6 man.

That will not happen. GvG has always been the area Anets attention goes out to mostly. That's true regardless of the 'fact' if it's better or worse than HA. They've never changed one thing about GvG as far as I can remember. Skill nerfs don't count. It's not the first time they change something about HA (rifts).
One thing I'm worried about is the maps, that already were too big, are now even 'too bigger'. Most extreme example being Burial Mounds. Designed for 48 players, now played by 12 players. Those map changes had better include some reduction in size.

Y O U Lo Se · Oct 04, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

Maybe those people who are in teams of 8 can make 4 more friends and create 2 teams of 6?

That's not the point, you can get 59 friends and make 10 teams but it won't change the fun you have. And since there is no fun in 6v6 for a lot of hardcore HA-ers, that argument doesn't make sense.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 04, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

While I will reserve judgement until I actually play the new HA, those saying that the game is automatically less complex because you have less skillslots aren't thinking things through.

When you make a build for HA right now, a lot of the stuff you pack in is there to beat specific gimmicks, or to beat the map mechanics. You bring along a Choking Gas guy or a mesmer with CoF so you can beat Bloodspike. You bring wards so you don't lose to IWAY. You bring Seeking Arrows so you can interrupt their ghost on the altar, Windborne so you can relic run faster and speed up your ghost, ect.

Consider how many slots in a standard HA balanced build would be freed up if the map changes make HoH something other than dias. Oath Shot/Fertile Season guy? Gone. SB/Infuse monk? Gone. Healing Seed? Gone. Just no need for them anymore. Really think for a moment of how many more skillslots you can suddenly devote to beating the other team, rather than beating the map or some weird gimmick. You might still need RC for the first few weeks, but I suspect ViMWAY will die out pretty quick.

I've played a fair amount of TA. It's a pretty simplistic gametype and I don't like it that much, but one thing I really enjoy is that every slot in the build is devoted to beating the other team. You don't have to worry about packing in this or that specific counter to beat the gimmicks or the map, you just do whatever you can to beat the other guys on a level playing field.

And if HA turns out to be the same way, but more strategic and complex, I don't see how that can possibly be a bad thing.

There's been a lot of people whining on these forums, many of them from decent HA guilds. My advice is, wait until the weekend when this stuff is actually implemented. Put together the best build you can with the new map mechanics, and go play a few rounds. If HA is really as bad as you guys claim, THEN come back here and post about it. Creating 10 QQ-filled threads for JR to delete is a bit of an overreaction when we don't know for sure what will be changing yet.

M'kay?

DarkCloud · Oct 04, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

You sure? You asked them this and thats the answer they gave DarkCloud? Did they say anything else while you were talking to them. Things like this:

They don't consider guilds using thump and spike builds to climb the laddar an issue? Champ point farmers aren't an issue for corruption? Using gimmick builds to puff your rank isn't a problem?

They haven't had to insistute resets in the past over rampant skill abuse? They didn't actually have to rest the laddar just recently then, right? I mean GvGers weren't using an exploit to kill off Guild Lords in seconds, right?

And they consider guilds (too many imho) basically copy and pasting their skillbars from what they saw in Observer the other night to be original and creative?

Fear the masses that don't/can't play your gametype. You should be quaking in your boots over what they're doing to HA--making it "more accessable" to the masses.

GvG requires tactics more than just the build. Let say a guild runs a build considered gimmicked or overpower such as thump smite to climb ladder, do they ever lose any matches? Yes, they do because of tactical errors or counters to current gvg metagame. There are many ways to win a match in gvg such as ganks, splits, creating mismatches, making other team panic, etc. And in gvg, you do get penalize if you lose making stakes a lot higher.

HA doesnt require much tactics. If you have a build you can't beat 1 vs 1 can u split and can u find alternative ways to win? Do you get penalize when you lose such as lost of fame? I dont think so.

And, the talk about signet of might abuse. Anet did rollback the ladder because of the harm it will do the ladder. Did they rollback the fame for the people who abuse it in Heroes Ascent? No. Exploits in gvg becomes immediate issues whereas in HA its not as immediate. Anyone remember the HA bug on the ghost being able to be taken off altar after capping the altar so no other ghost can cap altar. Anet didnt fix that bug until after the playoffs so that the playoff games wont be taken off observor.

You also talked about copying other's build skill for skill. Just by copying the skills skill for skill does not imply that you can play at the same level as those that played it. You can clearly see that in gvg because just having the build will not make you have a good split or sudden good communication and cordination. Isnt there a reason why many ppl copy top guild's build but are never ever really successful with it. It takes more than a build that makes you win in gvg. On the other hand HA, you copy a build and you do have a higher success of winning with it because it does not involve as much tactics as it does in gvg. Example, many people copy iway in HA and they are able to farm some fame with it. But, those that copy IWAY in gvg from Sweetie Animal Girl[Cute] were never really successful with it and wasnt able to farm rating as well as them. Although Cute ran iway in gvg, they did have many good players and there tactics wins them matches. Also, about gimmicks in gvg, IWAY was always considered a gimmick in HA but Anet really did nothing about it until Cute and MATH brought IWAY into gvg and it became apparent that IWAY was overpowered and needed a nerf.

Sol Is Pyrrhus · Oct 04, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I think the guys from EaT and CASH are greatly generalizing HA guilds. I know many people from top guilds all the way down to fairly new guilds that are excited about the change because it breaks the monotony of HA. I was so sick of blood spike that I was to the point of /resign as soon as I saw O Azn O's team, or anyone else running blood spike; not because I was worried about the loss, just because running around in circles in Burial Mound isn't my idea of fun. It's frustrating and tedious. 6 man HA eliminates the ridiculous defense of the three monk backline, and forces monks to recoordinate and reevaluate their line. With 6 man, I don't think it's too hard of a change to take a monk away, leaving one more slot to be dropped, taking away the whole, "Well, let's just add another choking gas".

This is just a matter of people being so set in their ways that any change upsets them.

Not all HA guilds are QQing; most of us are thinking up new builds that incorporate new skills and professions into a new meta formed from 6man HA.

Wilhelm · Oct 04, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

While I will reserve judgement until I actually play the new HA, those saying that the game is automatically less complex because you have less skillslots aren't thinking things through.

When you make a build for HA right now, a lot of the stuff you pack in is there to beat specific gimmicks, or to beat the map mechanics. You bring along a Choking Gas guy or a mesmer with CoF so you can beat Bloodspike. You bring wards so you don't lose to IWAY. You bring Seeking Arrows so you can interrupt their ghost on the altar, Windborne so you can relic run faster and speed up your ghost, ect.

Consider how many slots in a standard HA balanced build would be freed up if the map changes make HoH something other than dias. Oath Shot/Fertile Season guy? Gone. SB/Infuse monk? Gone. Healing Seed? Gone. Just no need for them anymore. Really think for a moment of how many more skillslots you can suddenly devote to beating the other team, rather than beating the map or some weird gimmick. You might still need RC for the first few weeks, but I suspect ViMWAY will die out pretty quick.

I've played a fair amount of TA. It's a pretty simplistic gametype and I don't like it that much, but one thing I really enjoy is that every slot in the build is devoted to beating the other team. You don't have to worry about packing in this or that specific counter to beat the gimmicks or the map, you just do whatever you can to beat the other guys on a level playing field.

And if HA turns out to be the same way, but more strategic and complex, I don't see how that can possibly be a bad thing.

There's been a lot of people whining on these forums, many of them from decent HA guilds. My advice is, wait until the weekend when this stuff is actually implemented. Put together the best build you can with the new map mechanics, and go play a few rounds. If HA is really as bad as you guys claim, THEN come back here and post about it. Creating 10 QQ-filled threads for JR to delete is a bit of an overreaction when we don't know for sure what will be changing yet.

M'kay?

Perfectly said.

Patccmoi · Oct 04, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I also would've prefer to see a new arena than an HA change, but really just because it would've kept the HA hardcore players more pleased. Personally i found HA incredibly boring since a few months, and not because i couldn't win halls there (did a couple of times when friends lacked someone to fill their groups). While a lot of big HA players say they will leave HA, i also know a lot of high level GvG players that are very happy and will come back to HA. Like a lot of them, if we're 8, we won't HA, we GvG. But if we're 5-6, we didn't have much to do PvP-wise (TA, but doesn't have any real reward and doesn't allow to bring more than 4), and PuGing in HA doesn't allow for ANY build creativity.

I totally disagree that 6v6 kills creativity in build, honestly i see it as the other way around. In HA you are 'encaged' with another team and dish it out. With 8 players, this favored spike teams to a nearly obsene level because they could pack a perfect spike and tons of defense. You think balanced build had a lot of room for creativity? They had to pack enough counters to survive a perfect spike and to hold against mass melee pressure that was IWAY. This lead to extremely heavy defense and backlines of 3 monks +1-2 utility that was mostly defense (wards, defensive hexes, defensive spirit spammer, etc.). Yes, you could have some originality and some builds WERE original and well thought of, but you nearly never saw them or they died after 2-3 maps to a bloodspike/rspike.

I see 6v6 as TA-like, but with room to actually 'specialize' your build more and put some synergy in place to have something more unique. I think you can have a lot of creativity overall. As for '2 monks backline and it leaves room for 4', i don't agree with that either. In the preview weekend, we won hall and held it 4 times in a row with 1 monk only (well, 2, but one was smite). Against 6 people, only 1 real monk with other support healing can actually be fine. The big difference with TA is that in TA the teams you meet are random and the maps have no real objective, 2-3 teams can be at 30+ win streak and never face each other, while in HA good teams will be pitched against each other fast enough and this can lead into very good fights with various objectives.

I -think- you will see a lot more creativity in builds in 6v6 than you did in 8v8 overall. Just like you see tons more in TA than in HA. And i think 6v6 will force 'balanced builds' to improve their game. You need to monk a lot better in a 1-2 monks backline than in a 3 monks backline having infinite energy through channeling and an insane amount of defense support.

Map change is important though, and it depends on what will be done there. Just the 'holding halls' concept in a 3 ways match was really harsh for 6v6 because it was quite hard to hold if 2 teams jumped on you, but then again more rotation and less holding build might be better. I think HA had too many map types for 6v6 because certain map types kinda 'forced' certain skills and limited you too much. Will see what they did about that.

And i think that the 6 men team might favor strategy/tactics over build, which is a good thing because it distinguishes good teams from bad teams. With less skills, you'll have to think more about how to use them and what to do against different specific builds than when you actually have all bases covered by skills alone. You might lack hex removal, but you can dedicate a part of your team at shutting down the hexers, etc. I'm really not convinced that good teams will suffer from a rock/paper/scissor situation, they'll find good builds they can adapt to various situations, and i'm pretty sure that tons of variations of that can be possible in all shapes and forms (spike, balance, maybe some gimmicks...).

And it does cripple spikes. Yes, blood spike worked to some extent in 6v6, but you had to sacrifice a lot of defense for it (no spirit spammer, or 1 but you couldn't straight kill efficiently, etc.), and rspike too, but the thing is they had to sacrifice a lot of their defense/support for that and it left them vulnerable. We beat plenty of bspike/rspike attempt then even if their spike killed clean because you could pressure/shutdown them more easily and they crumbled eventually. If your spike has the minimum required to kill straight, shutting down any part of it makes the full spike fail. Keep a PD Mesmer on one of the blood spikers for example and they will never straight kill so you can afford to rush on them. Same for a RSpike actually... PD a Dual Shot on a ranger and the kill will be screwed because they can't allow much room for overkill if they want to keep some form of defense.

I PvP since GW launched and know a lot of other good players (top 100 guilds) that do too and are pleased with the change. Don't just assume that it's newb PvErs who never PvP that wanted it. As i said, i would've prefer a new arena and that they leave HA alone, but just to please HA hardcore players (which aren't insanely numerous...). Yes, it's very possible that 90% of the people you talk to are annoyed with the change if you HA all the time. But HA players != PvP players in general. I talk with a lot of players from top 100 guilds, and 90% of them are pleased with the changes. It's just different PvP player groups, one isn't 'better' than the other or 'right', but ANet has to decide which is the majority there and what they consider is best for the game, even if it displeased the people who were in HA the most (which was obviously those that liked HA, or just wanted Fame for cute emotes, because everyone that disliked HA left that place long ago. Doesn't mean they're newb or stopped PvPing). It might chase some of the current HA players away, but it might also bring a lot more new players, and high level PvP players that were just sick of how HA was since months back in there. And i think that 6v6 will teach people how to play for something like GvG a lot more than 8v8 HA ever did because they won't be in a situation where they have basically too much defense.

Trixz · Oct 04, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

But of course there is always Guild Battles, which is far superior in everyway to Halls, and remain 8 man.

QFT

Thom Bangalter · Oct 04, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

QQ QQ QQ!

Just kidding, I'm looking forward to change.

I think advent made it perfectly clear why this is happening, and Squidget why this is good for players. I'll stick pick GVG, but it's going to arguably be a lot easier to find a group there now.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 04, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Perfectly said.

Perfectly said

tomcruisejr · Oct 04, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

A.Net cannot please everyone.

Instead of crying, please be like IWAY. IWAY is still here rocking up HA even it suffered lots and lots of changes. No IWAYer cried and posted silly petitions to unnerf their build. anyway.

Adapt or be left out.

6vs6 HA is good because those who want an 8vs8 battle field can just go gvg. see, it's not just 8vs8 ha still house old mind numbing builds that ive seen month s ago, but also it "steals" the players from trying and putting to their heads that GvG = best pvp avenue that guild wars currently is offering us.

Minus Sign · Oct 04, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

@ the wait and seers: a Counter-argument. "Ok, I agree. The 5 year old has matches and I see smoke in the window. But...lets wait until the house burns down before you call the fire department."

/sarcasm

We got 3 days until they do this, and i plan to scream as loud as I can in hopes that maybe--just on the odd chance--Anet might come into forums like this one, read the posts and say "You know, that dumb idea of ours might actually be stupid..."

They claim they listen to public opinion about changes. they make their changes based on what they think the players want? Well let em hear me loud and clear:

I AND MANY OTHER HA REGULARS DO NOT WANT THIS!!! STOP CATTERING TO FAME FARMING VIMTRAPPERS!

Off-topic @hardcore GvGers in general: I've proved my point and pissed off enough just making the suggestion. Remember that feeling--the very indignation when you first saw the suggestion--before you deride those who don't want this.

Nurse With Wound · Oct 04, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I AND MANY OTHER HA REGULARS DO NOT WANT THIS!!! STOP CATTERING TO FAME FARMING VIMTRAPPERS!

/signed on behalf me and my guild.

DarkCloud · Oct 04, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I AND MANY OTHER HA REGULARS DO NOT WANT THIS!!! STOP CATTERING TO FAME FARMING VIMTRAPPERS!

Same can be said about 8 vs 8 HA. Stop catering to fame farming iwayers, iway trappers, iway necros, blood spikers, ranger spikers, etc. I dont realli see much difference between 8 vs 8 HA and 6 vs 6 HA. There will always be fame farmers and builds people consider gimmicks.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 04, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

@ the wait and seers: a Counter-argument. "Ok, I agree. The 5 year old has matches and I see smoke in the window. But...lets wait until the house burns down before you call the fire department."

/sarcasm

We got 3 days until they do this, and i plan to scream as loud as I can in hopes that maybe--just on the odd chance--Anet might come into forums like this one, read the posts and say "You know, that dumb idea of ours might actually be stupid..."

You seriously think that Arenanet is going to decide to give up all their hard work on rebalancing the maps for 6v6 because of some whiners on forums, without even trying out the new gametype? Seriously?

After you've played it then they might be willing to listen to people on the boards, and change things based on our comments. At the moment all you're doing is speculating that it will be bad no matter what, when you've brought forth no real evidence that it will be bad and you don't know what changes are going to be made.

They are not going to cancel it pre-release, no matter how much people in your guild kick and scream. IF they decided to restore 8v8 HA, it would be after 6v6 HA fails to work out.

Wilhelm · Oct 04, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I AND MANY OTHER HA REGULARS DO NOT WANT THIS!!! STOP CATTERING TO FAME FARMING VIMTRAPPERS!

Ohh it's a start of a whiney revolution.

But really...

It's not the end of the world......it is however the end of tossing in a second choking gas ranger, r/c, spirit ranger ........just because you can.

tomcruisejr finally said something intelligent, albeit, still about iway : "Adapt or be left out"

Boofhead · Oct 04, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

6v6 is worse for VIM, not better.

Ronin Rangerin · Oct 04, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

As long as we keep downsizing, would'nt it be great if they made gvg 5 v 5 and team arenas 2 v 2. It would be much easier for lil timmy paladin to find groups in those also.

Funny thing is that Anet will probably listen to such a retarted post.

B Ephekt · Oct 04, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

How does that follow? Fewer players cripples spike (not enough players for both a clean spike and a good defense) and stupidly defensive builds (not enough players to run a massively redunant backline and still be able to kill anything); I don't see how it does anything to balanced. Unless by "balanced" you mean "rainbow spike"...

Both necro and ranger spike are still viable in 6v6 so I'm not sure what you're talking about.