Curse

Bugeater · Nov 07, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Good armor, good DPS, great energy management, tons un-removable skills, uninterruptible triggered skills & re-applied skills... and 1 (one!) skill that counters them.

I threw together a 6-man example, but nothing's keeping it from being modded to an 8-man with minimal thought.

P/Mo
Command 12+2
Spear 11+1
Leadership 6

Incoming {E}
Go For The Eyes
Stand Your Ground
Song of Concentration
Barbed Spear
Smite Hex
Aggressive Refrain
Res

P/Mo
Command 12+2
Spear 11+1
Leadership 6

Incoming {E}
Go For The Eyes
Bladeturn Refrain
Song of Concentration
Vicious Attack
Smite Hex
Aggressive Refrain
Res

I started with two Incoming! paragons since Incoming! is busted. With both Incoming's being spammed, you're down to 65% damage - better if you're smart about it. Smite is there as a hex removal spell to trigger Hexbreaker Aria - it could be something different.

P/Mo
Motivation 12+2
Spear 11+1
Leadership 6

Anthem of Flame
Energizing Finale
Finale of Restoration
Purifying Finale
Wearying Spear
Aggressive Refrain
Empathetic Removal {E}
Res

Then I put in a Finale paragon since finale's are busted. Purifying really helps Wearying shine. Empathetic Removal for hex removal - also will trigger Hexbreaker Aria. Anthem of Flame will keep Refrains up by itself.

P/*
Motivation 12+2
Spear 11+1
Leadership 6

Sig of Synergy
Chorus of Restoration
Mending Refrain
Song of Purification {E}
Zealous Anthem
Disrupting Throw
Spear of Lightning
res

I needed a Mending Refrain paragon since mending refrain is busted. Constant +4 health regen at nothing more than the initial cost. Incredible condition removal and some healing support and damage as well.

P/W
Spear 12+2
Tactics 11
Leadership 6

Charge {E}
Shields Up
Watch Yourself
Disrupting Throw
Spear of Lightning
Vicious Attack
Aggressive Refrain
res

More shouts to synergize with the broken Refrains and Finales. Some damage skills to boot (granted they're not much but do you really need them when everyone on the team has warrior dps?)

P/Mo
Leadership 10+2
Healing 12
Spear 8+1

They're on Fire
Burning Refrain
Hexbreaker Aria
Healing Whisper
Glimmer of Light {E}
Aggressive Refrain
Wild Throw
Res

This is the monk for the team. He might be a little shy on healing, but Mending Refrain on everyone and Finale of Restoration triggering like crazy, not to mention the Incoming's and They're On Fire reducing damage like a mofo, the monk's duty should be pretty light.

The biggest issue I see is Vocal Minority, but with decent hex removal it shouldn't be terrible. As a team you have excellent DPS (kinda crappy spike, but it's existent), the ability to change targets at the drop of the hat, and take dramatically reduced damage. None of the characters make a terribly strong gank squad, but all of the members stand up very well against a split. For GvG you'd either tailor a split squad or only split reactively.

There's a lot of us who have an amorphous notion that Paragons are overpowered, but haven't really solidified them into a build. Is this just broke or am I missing something?

EDIT: I know I have character builds in here, but it's not directly GvG or HA so I didn't want to put it into either of those build forums. Move it if you think it belongs better in one of those.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Nov 07, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

It's quite obvious that paragons are broken, but I guess it takes time for Anet to realize this.

There needs to be more counters. Vocal minority could use a buff, long recharge, seeing as it's the only viable counter.

Squidget's Edit: Removed reference to deleted

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 07, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

The build you post has almost no healing, aside from Glimmer of Light. KD-spike the GoL guy and the entire build breaks down. In the meantime you just hold up against the pressure with stuff like Guardian, Aegis, and Shields Up. Try it yourself if you want to see, I've played against this kind of build and they all hit the same pitfall.

We did put together a pretty wicked Paragon spike in a PuG at one point. The real key to the build was Energizing Finale, which gave our monks a neverending supply of energy due to the massive number of shouts and chants we could stack into the build. For a spike build it was quite scary 8v8, though the splits were pretty weak.

Those requesting better paragon shutdown are looking at things entirely the wrong way. You shut down a paragon by applying shutdown to the characters they're there to buff. If the paragon is in the build to supercharge Searing Flames eles, apply shutdown to the SF and the paragon is useless. If he's there to buff the crap out of his team's thumpers, allow normal warrior counters to the thumpers and the paragon will feel useless. Paragons are incredibly resilient to shutdown so you don't try to shut them down directly - paragon shouts aren't a threat at all, but the characters they buff can be.

The only threatening thing a paragon can do by himself is chuck spears to spread spike or degen. Go down the list of ranger counters and you'll find that every one works on spear-chuckers. Nothing new there.

Paragons require shutdown characters to think on a higher level of build analysis. To shutdown the paragon you have to look at why the paragon is in the build, and shut down whatever he's there to supercharge.

The one paragon skill I think needs a look is Energizing Finale. The energy gains from that thing can surpass any other skill if the build has a few shouts, and EF is not elite. It's only a matter of time before people come up with a way to abuse that skill in a gimmick, offensive or defensively, and once it catches on it's going to be very difficult to stop.

Other than that, paragons are fine. Except Disrupting Throw needs to suck less.

Rapture · Nov 07, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

Vocal minority could use a buff, long recharge, seeing as it's the only viable counter.

It really couldn't. If something is indeed overpowered making a single skill able to counter it, even if that skill is overpowered, makes for incredibly simple rock/paper/scissors.

Remember back on WoC 40?, Izzy talked about the way to keep the game balanced while adding a lot of new skills is to keep the counters very general. He's right. That's the only viable solution...so why do we have a new class full of shouts and chants and whatnot?

The options at the moment are to make Paragon skills so poor they don't warrant removal or dramatically increase the amount of skills that can hate out something other than enchantments.

Drewfense · Nov 07, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Shields Up is another strong counter...I know what you mean though. There isn't a reasonable counter to chants, especially defensive, unless you are a hex build. It makes me almost wish there was a shout "SHUT UP!"

clonmac · Nov 07, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Those requesting better paragon shutdown are looking at things entirely the wrong way. You shut down a paragon by applying shutdown to the characters they're there to buff. If the paragon is in the build to supercharge Searing Flames eles, apply shutdown to the SF and the paragon is useless. If he's there to buff the crap out of his team's thumpers, allow normal warrior counters to the thumpers and the paragon will feel useless. Paragons are incredibly resilient to shutdown so you don't try to shut them down directly - paragon shouts aren't a threat at all, but the characters they buff can be.

...This couldn't be any better said.

Bugeater · Nov 07, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The build you post has almost no healing, aside from Glimmer of Light. KD-spike the GoL guy and the entire build breaks down.

Healing Whisper is solid. And Finale of Restoration can be kept on 2 players solid. With all the shouts going around, you won't be able to kill someone with that on them. Chorus of Restoration is like a beefy heal party without the range. And Sig of Synergy can't be ignored either - I'd put it almost on par with Health Sig with its faster cast time. Along with a constant 4 pips of regen on every character and significant damage reduction I'm not convinced you're correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In the meantime you just hold up against the pressure with stuff like Guardian, Aegis, and Shields Up. Try it yourself if you want to see, I've played against this kind of build and they all hit the same pitfall.

Playing against Guardian is easy as you can switch targets with no lag time at all. I agree that Aegis and Shields Up are pretty harsh and Anthem of Guidance might be a good addition. But the DPS of this team is really pretty incredible. With 6 paragons chucking spears with a constant +25% IAS, you're looking at the equivalent pressure of ~4.5 frenzying warriors. That's tons of pressure. Even if you just play through Aegis and Shields up it's equivalent of having 2 unhindered warriors frenzying on you. The reason why you don't run 4 warriors is that you don't generally have the support for them. But when they can support themselves like Paragons can you get around that restriction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

We did put together a pretty wicked Paragon spike in a PuG at one point. The real key to the build was Energizing Finale, which gave our monks a neverending supply of energy due to the massive number of shouts and chants we could stack into the build.

3 of the 4 Finales are broke without question(Blazing is good, but not as awesome as the others) - Energizing might be the most game affecting. All 4 of the Refrains are just as broke in my opinion since you can put them on as the match is starting (before you first make contact for most of the team) and keep them on everyone for the duration with only a spot re-apply here and there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

For a spike build it was quite scary 8v8, though the splits were pretty weak.

How do you Paragon spike? Their spike skills pretty much suck as far as I can tell. The elites aren't terrible, but are slow to charge, and Wearying is decent, but requires a de-weakness before you can spike again. And paragons face a disadvantage in adren spikes of flight time. You can't unload adren like a warrior because when you use an adrenal skill, you have to wait until it actually hits until you get the adrenaline back to use the next one. A warrior can unload them without that delay.

You do have an interesting take on facing Paragon teams. I'll have to think about that some more. But in the current context the advice to leave the paragons and shut done their supercharged teammates doesn't really play when the team is all paragons. I guess you'd just treat them all like rangers, trying to shut them all down. - which brings me to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The only threatening thing a paragon can do by himself is chuck spears to spread spike or degen. Go down the list of ranger counters and you'll find that every one works on spear-chuckers. Nothing new there.

I couldn't disagree more. The difference is that rangers don't have all the utility that paragons have. And those utility skills that paragons have directly boost the other skills they have as well as their energy management. Attack speed buffs, IAS, condition removal, healing (both burst and regen), damage reduction and armor - all that comes from using other skills that give you a benefit anyway. Not only that, but a paragon out-pressures a ranger by 20%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Except Disrupting Throw needs to suck less.

The whole spear line is a bit weak. Compare their damage, spike ability, disruption or condition spreading and they don't stack up (ok, conditions are on par with some other weapon lines). But paragons already have so much going for them it doesn't bother me much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapture and Drewfense

...Vocal Minority balance and Shields Up...

I agree with both of you. I did neglect Shields Up in my OP, it is good response to paragons, but by itself doesn't cut it. I really don't like the direction balance has taken with paragons. Rapture is entirely correct that having an unbalanced class that's well shut down by only a couple skills leads to stagnation in the game.

Bankai · Nov 08, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

I couldn't disagree more. The difference is that rangers don't have all the utility that paragons have. And those utility skills that paragons have directly boost the other skills they have as well as their energy management. Attack speed buffs, IAS, condition removal, healing (both burst and regen), damage reduction and armor - all that comes from using other skills that give you a benefit anyway. Not only that, but a paragon out-pressures a ranger by 20%.

I disagree. Ranger just has a different kind of utility. How will a paragon counter whirling apart from wild throw? Plus, you don't seem to know what the strength is of a ranger. It's not that it can survive on its own, or work great with others. It's that it's great against others. You almost never use a ranger as a defensive character. You'll use it with spirits to counter enemies' builds, you use it to spread conditions. It's not meant to be a class with massive defense, while it has quite some. Sorry to bring it up again, but this is comparing apples with oranges.

Dalimoor_Kalkire · Nov 08, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Those requesting better paragon shutdown are looking at things entirely the wrong way. You shut down a paragon by applying shutdown to the characters they're there to buff. If the paragon is in the build to supercharge Searing Flames eles, apply shutdown to the SF and the paragon is useless. If he's there to buff the crap out of his team's thumpers, allow normal warrior counters to the thumpers and the paragon will feel useless. Paragons are incredibly resilient to shutdown so you don't try to shut them down directly - paragon shouts aren't a threat at all, but the characters they buff can be.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

Durik Lakmor · Nov 08, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

now here is the interesting thing

talk to a pve paragon and they'll say that the class is underpowered are way too dependent on team-specfic builds (which the latter is a great thing for pvp teams of course)

Personally I haven't PvP since NF came out, been too busy playing throught he pve side of things on my paragon, I will say that after having 3 P in my PvE group working with the refrains I can see how it would seem overpowered with out some remvoal skills.

My suggestion is to give Mes and possible Nec some Echo removal skills, but leave the refrains themselves alone. Just my $0.02

We could go on into yet another pointless debate about how pvp and pve imbalances effect each other greatly but honestly, I want to see what is most fair for both sides of the game. If that means my lovely refrains will need to be recast more often or have some additonal cost or more counters then so be it.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 08, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Bluntly, there isn't room on mesmer or necromancer bars for more specific counters. No matter how many counters or counter-counters you add, you still only have 64 skills. The more "X removal" skills you add, the less a balanced build will be able to cope and the more the game turns into Build Wars.

I'm all for proposing additional counters, but they need to work in the same way current counters already do. We need more general counters that can apply to a wide variety of skills, not specific counters people can pack into their builds to play rock-paper-scissors with.

Patrograd · Nov 08, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Squidget is correct

A paragon doesnt actually do anything himself, and is really easy to shutdown in any event. Prevent him getting adrenaline through blinds and usual physical damage hate (all the ranger/warrior counters squidget lists) and he is screwed, as usually there is a synergy between the paragon's adrenaline and his energy management, as he uses adrenal shouts to power his energy shouts. Diversion is also extremely strong as he is a spambot with skills he cant cancel.

Other than that, do as squidget says. if he is melee buff, shut down the melee, if he is caster buff, shut down the casters, if he is spearmastery, ignore him :-)

IMO, having played paragon constantly since NF's release, vocal minority is the weakest counter, and probably the weakest use of the skill. IMO vocal minority is best used shutting down Youre All alone warriors

Another counter is splitting, as paragon's function best with as many teammates around them as possible, and usually the entire team build will be built around his shouts. Split them up, and only half the team gets the benefit.

Durik Lakmor · Nov 08, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Another counter is splitting, as paragon's function best with as many teammates around them as possible, and usually the entire team build will be built around his shouts. Split them up, and only half the team gets the benefit.

And a very good counter if you can do it.

I guess adding a general counter "removes X buffs" where X could be like 1-3 on an elite or just 1 on a regular skill would be cool.

Xanthar · Nov 08, 2006, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Speaking about possible counters to paragons, it strikes me that another general counter that I really would have expected a long time ago is a hex that removes Energy per skill use - Relating to Spirit Shackles much as Spiteful Spirit relates to Empathy.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 08, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The build you post has almost no healing, aside from Glimmer of Light. KD-spike the GoL guy and the entire build breaks down. In the meantime you just hold up against the pressure with stuff like Guardian, Aegis, and Shields Up. Try it yourself if you want to see, I've played against this kind of build and they all hit the same pitfall.

We did put together a pretty wicked Paragon spike in a PuG at one point. The real key to the build was Energizing Finale, which gave our monks a neverending supply of energy due to the massive number of shouts and chants we could stack into the build. For a spike build it was quite scary 8v8, though the splits were pretty weak.

Those requesting better paragon shutdown are looking at things entirely the wrong way. You shut down a paragon by applying shutdown to the characters they're there to buff. If the paragon is in the build to supercharge Searing Flames eles, apply shutdown to the SF and the paragon is useless. If he's there to buff the crap out of his team's thumpers, allow normal warrior counters to the thumpers and the paragon will feel useless. Paragons are incredibly resilient to shutdown so you don't try to shut them down directly - paragon shouts aren't a threat at all, but the characters they buff can be.

The only threatening thing a paragon can do by himself is chuck spears to spread spike or degen. Go down the list of ranger counters and you'll find that every one works on spear-chuckers. Nothing new there.

Paragons require shutdown characters to think on a higher level of build analysis. To shutdown the paragon you have to look at why the paragon is in the build, and shut down whatever he's there to supercharge.

The one paragon skill I think needs a look is Energizing Finale. The energy gains from that thing can surpass any other skill if the build has a few shouts, and EF is not elite. It's only a matter of time before people come up with a way to abuse that skill in a gimmick, offensive or defensively, and once it catches on it's going to be very difficult to stop.

Other than that, paragons are fine. Except Disrupting Throw needs to suck less.

lol did you miss the paragon with mending refrain? All of the characters have +4 regen. I think it's safe to say they have some healing outside of GoL. I'm not saying the builds good, just think you missed that part.

Patrograd · Nov 08, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

lol did you miss the paragon with mending refrain? All of the characters have +4 regen. I think it's safe to say they have some healing outside of GoL. I'm not saying the builds good, just think you missed that part.

To be fair, its pretty easy to miss 4 regen, I dont think anyone could reasonably describe that as healing

Drewfense · Nov 08, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rep

I think incoming needs to be nerfed, it is way to much defense when people chain incomings...or it might be just that there is no way for the shout to be removed. Unlike aegis, there really isn't a reasonable way for a team to counter it. Vocal minority is garbage since only hex builds can use it (f incoming/watch yourself/et cetera if your a hex build anyways). There is a crappy ranger spirit which really wouldn't hurt a paragon that much. The only reasonable counter is death...on a 100+ armor target...with incoming... The prophecies equivalent would be them introducing enchantments into the game and the only counter was chillblains. It is just stupid. Anyways, back to incoming. The duration should be like 1-3 seconds. Long enough that it screws over spike teams (as I think the original intent was), but short enough where it cannot be chained.

Quote from a different forum talking about incoming...to lazy to write something similar out, but it can be applied to any shout. The game is really lacking in direct counters, especially defensive shouts. Offensive shouts really aren't that much of a problem. Most of them are condition based and can be solved by better removal. Offensive boosts also have the same counters as everything else...wards/aegis/et cetera. The defensive ones on the other hand have no legitimate counter. If everyone has Incoming and Watch Yourself spammed on them...how do you get around it. Whenever these types of imba conversations pop up...the same generic counters are suggested...edeny! diversion! blackout! It would be nice to have a few more direct counters.

As for only having 64 skills that you can bring, rock/paper/scissors, build wars, et cetera, well that is a natural consequence of the game expanding. People want new and inventive classes. Each new and inventive class means a new faucet of the game is going to be expanded on or rather exploited (didn't we have this same conversation about the ritualist spirit spamers?...). I would prefer it if all the classes followed the outlines of prophecies. It would be a much more strategic and balanced game, but that doesn't sell as well =/

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 09, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Incoming chains do tend to make the flagstand team invincible. They're vulnerable to splits though, and if you're put into a situation where Incoming isn't saving everyone you'll be pretty ineffective because of how many elites you've sacrificed. A condition-degen team that was splitting and using a lot of snares would do pretty well against Incoming chains - something like KGYUway. In this case, I think it's better to wait until the metagame shifts a bit rather than calling for a nerf right off.

I wouldn't necessarily object to your change though. If Incoming needs to be changed, a slight duration reduction is the way to go.

tomcruisejr · Nov 09, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

well, maybe you are used too the old skills and any good new skills that come along look like "overpowered"/"busted"?

Riotgear · Nov 09, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

Speaking about possible counters to paragons, it strikes me that another general counter that I really would have expected a long time ago is a hex that removes Energy per skill use - Relating to Spirit Shackles much as Spiteful Spirit relates to Empathy.

Price of Pride causes energy loss every time an elite is used.
Depravity causes AOE energy loss every time a spell is cast.
Arcane Echo + Simple Thievery might work.