Curse

FireBolt · Nov 04, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

A major difference between a game like WoW and GW is that WoW is gear dependent. As to say: A good player with moderate gear will not be able to take down a bad player with epic gear in a game like WoW.

What it boils down to in GW really is teamwork, choice and awareness. Being aware of what is happening in the battle, choosing what to do about it and being able to execute a tactic as a team. This is what separates a top guild vs a low guild. The thing to remember in GW is that, its not necessarily the skill of the player that makes a team good, but the teamwork between them.

Bankai · Nov 04, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

please re-read my post as I made no such claim.

I never said you made such claim. However, if you look at it the way it made you look at things in your op, nothing takes skill. But everything takes skill.

Before I went absent I played quite some iway with my guild (orders, tainted, dual trappers, 4 wars). I found that even though iway is often called skill-less there was a huge different between groups I was with. Yes, even fotms (though it differs how much skill you need) need skill.

Dragannia · Nov 04, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Yeah, EvIL is a noob spike team. Way to ignore the substance of the post.

You said that spike teams have not influenced the tournament. I'm saying that they have. EvIL is an example of a good spike team, which has influenced the metagame a lot (their Shadow Shroud Mesmer was for a while popular). I'm not saying they're noob, no doubt they possess all the things you said.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 04, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Before I went absent I played quite some iway with my guild (orders, tainted, dual trappers, 4 wars). I found that even though iway is often called skill-less there was a huge different between groups I was with. Yes, even fotms (though it differs how much skill you need) need skill.

Depends on the FoTM. IWAY (and similar heavy-pressure builds) is really called skill-less because it allows weak players to beat mid-level players. The heavy pressure of the build, even without coordination, is more than most mid-level teams are able to handle. A high-level team facing an uncoordinated IWAY will walk all over them, because they'll be able to see and exploit the weaknesses in the IWAY's play. However, if you put good players into a heavy pressure gimmick it becomes capable of beating nearly any team - the extra coordination pushes the offense to the point where it can break even a good team quickly.

Spike is a bit of a different beast. There's not going to be a big difference between a spike team with 1 good player and a spike team with 8. However, there will be a massive difference between a spike team with 1 good player and a spike team with all crappy players. Spike teams sink or swim on their caller, not their team as a whole..

Master Fuhon · Nov 04, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Skills required for GW:
Basic manual dexterity
Visual acuity
Identification
Correlation
Anticipation
Reflex

IMO, no different from WoW NWN etc.

These same skills are required to play MtG excepting reflex.

For FPS one also requires: Hand-Eye coordination

You've gone out and listed what you feel are the aspects of skill, but you forgot that it is more important to properly weigh them. By generic definition giving, you might be able to draw the conclusion that the man vs. computer chess matches are a battle of skill. I'd choose to believe that the man vs. computer mechanic exploits the lack of skill inherent in the original contest. I've listened to some people who were very impressed by WoW players actions, only to know that there are macros and user interface modifications that perform these behaviors. Of course, the original behavior was learned by skilled players, but we can easily substitue memory where we lack skill.

I'm also surprised you choose to state that FPS is higher skill level, when coordination reflex is far greater than tactics. That means that someone with great skill will be capable of describing the aspects of that skill so that the results can be attainable by another person. In other words, personal advantage is greater than skill in FPS.

The system of standardized testing can easily be exploited by someone who studies. And by this train of thought, you could go on to lead that there is no skill involved in anything (someone pointed this out with the soccer analogy). You might be trying to tell us that skill is simply a matter of using our personal advantages to succeed. This method of skill recognition is determined by bias, or it's not skill because we don't like it. An objective GW player will notice that "overload" has an advantage over strategy. That's where most of the discussion with the game becomes so heated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Methinks GW is no more skill based than any other RPG with PVP, and somewhat less skill based than any FPS with manual aiming.

This scenario only exists somewhere within the medium skill level bracket of teams. From watching the top teams, I would suggest that there is a huge talent gap between them and the rest. They are not invincible, but they pull off a greater number of victories in which they were put at a disadvantage of rock, paper, scissors. How can you not attribute skill to a player who does not abuse the mechanic and succeeds? These teams do exist. The existence of NPCs messes with Player vs. Player skill, and makes some other type of skill more valuable.

Cur · Nov 05, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

I've chosen to omit strategy as this is an element of any game, although as JR points out this is a crucial component of Guild matches.

Quote:

Methinks GW is no more skill based than any other RPG with PVP, and somewhat less skill based than any FPS with manual aiming.

Guild Wars has far greater potential for strategy, tactics, and 'skill' than any FPS I've played. I consider skill to be a combination of knowledge, intelligence and speed.

How many types of guns and maybe grenades do you need to know of in an FPS compared to the number of different skills in GW? 5-10 guns vs a few hundred skills? And guns usually only have one effect - direct damage, perhaps with an area of effect damage as well. So, no snares, degeneration of health, weakening, blindness, or dazes; no indirect damage, disabling, interruptions, knockdowns, healing batteries etc.

Gee, that's quite a discrepancy in the number of possible actions a player might have at their disposal. That's a severe point against potential FPS strategy and tactics. It almost makes an FPS seem simplistic in comparison.

Speed is where an FPS takes the crown. Dexterity in dodging and strafing, aiming at your target. Simple thoughts required but on a razors edge of reflex timing. GW is a bit slower unless you're trying to interrupt a 1/4 cast skill. However, in GW a player should be aware of their health, energy, skills available, cast times, recharge times, range and current positions of other players (especially those with interrupts), conditions, hexes, enchants, the status of their own group, wall obstructions - all while making quick decisions on skills to activate and possible consequences of using that skill moments later. Of course, if you have the perspective of a wammo, popping on mending and leeroying in with beat down thoughts may be the limit of your cognitive abilities.

When I think of a skilled player, mastermind tops the list while manual aiming/hand-mouse coordination are near the bottom.

Dzan · Nov 05, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Skill is an aquired trait, talent is natural. There seems to be a lot of confusion of the two. It takes both to be successful at any game or sport.

To compare GW to a FPS, the talent level is more necesary in FPS since the learning curve of competitive play is much steeper than GW. In GW you can play team arenas until you are competent and than progress to GVG or HOH, etc. A player with slow reactions and poor aim will never succeed in a FPS no matter how well he knows the maps and weapons, and will likely be killed continually before he ever aquires that information anyway.

Guild wars is much more knowledge based, as a previous poster said. You have to aquire knowledge of pretty much ever skill and how they interact, down to the animations. I think every pvp player knows the prot spirit animation at very least.

Basically, guild wars requires intense knowledge aquisition at the bottom of the learning curve and sheer talent at the top where knowledge is considered to be universal. FPS are nearly opposite, you succeed at the bottom of the curve with sheer talent and succeed at the top with superior knowledge.

shardfenix · Nov 09, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireBolt

A major difference between a game like WoW and GW is that WoW is gear dependent. As to say: A good player with moderate gear will not be able to take down a bad player with epic gear in a game like WoW.

Except in GW, you win by having a broken skill bar, not actual playing skill.

Mr Dbest · Nov 09, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Except in GW, you win by having a broken skill bar, not actual playing skill.

Until you run into someone running the same broken build, which it then comes down to skill.....and the points about skill have already been illustrated throughout the thread.....

Tainek · Nov 09, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cur

Guild Wars has far greater potential for strategy, tactics, and 'skill' than any FPS I've played. I consider skill to be a combination of knowledge, intelligence and speed.

How many types of guns and maybe grenades do you need to know of in an FPS compared to the number of different skills in GW? 5-10 guns vs a few hundred skills? And guns usually only have one effect - direct damage, perhaps with an area of effect damage as well. So, no snares, degeneration of health, weakening, blindness, or dazes; no indirect damage, disabling, interruptions, knockdowns, healing batteries etc.

Gee, that's quite a discrepancy in the number of possible actions a player might have at their disposal. That's a severe point against potential FPS strategy and tactics. It almost makes an FPS seem simplistic in comparison.

Speed is where an FPS takes the crown. Dexterity in dodging and strafing, aiming at your target. Simple thoughts required but on a razors edge of reflex timing. GW is a bit slower unless you're trying to interrupt a 1/4 cast skill. However, in GW a player should be aware of their health, energy, skills available, cast times, recharge times, range and current positions of other players (especially those with interrupts), conditions, hexes, enchants, the status of their own group, wall obstructions - all while making quick decisions on skills to activate and possible consequences of using that skill moments later. Of course, if you have the perspective of a wammo, popping on mending and leeroying in with beat down thoughts may be the limit of your cognitive abilities.

When I think of a skilled player, mastermind tops the list while manual aiming/hand-mouse coordination are near the bottom.

Sorry, but you havent played any Proper FPS then, counter strike might be won with caffene-crack-addict-reflexes, but this isnt the case in most good games.

Lets have a look at UT2004, a game i played for a year and a half before i came to Guild wars.

there are 11 Weapons (Lightning rifle and sniper are different statisically, and redeemer/ion and such dont count, they arnt used competativly so 11). each weapon has 2 firemodes, making for essentially 22 weapons. each weapon performs differently, a flak cannons secondary grenade will hit round corners, the shock rifle is a nasty beggar for pushing people off ledges ect

But there is more to a FPS than shooting at the other person and killing them first, there is importent resource control

You must time:

Super Sheild (every 57.5 Seconds) Sheild (every 27.5) Super Health (57.5) Sniper (27.5) Shock Rifle (27.5) and so forth

In GW i might have to remember 6-12 Times for Skills, in UT i would have to remember at least 20+ Times

But i also need to remember what weapons i have, and how much ammo, and what weapons has the enemy got? how much ammo has he got? how much heath and armour?

suddenly im rembembering over 50 facts in my head, and having to use these to make a decision every 5-10 seconds.

The player (or team) who won the game was the one who controlled the map correctly, and this isnt just picking them up as they spawn, each item requires a meticulos amount of thinking, and stragtegic use of weapons, positioning.

Quote:

A player with slow reactions and poor aim will never succeed in a FPS no matter how well he knows the maps and weapons, and will likely be killed continually before he ever aquires that information anyway.

Not true, if you have denied your foe all the healing and armour pickups, and all the weapons + Ammo, its a matter of time before he wears down and dies. if he has a better aim, then he is beatdown, and you are control, it is down to both players tactical skill then as to who wins.

But your point is even more worthless when you consider monking for example, if i dont react quickly, People die. if i dont remove that warriors blind ASAP , that warrior wont kill anyone.

Anyone who says FPS have no skill are either:

1: Playing CS:Source (which is a joke to all proper FPS Players)
2: Not played it enough, or at any kind of level
3: just plain suck at tactical thinking, and blame that its all down to talent, refusing to belive its they're lack of skill

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 09, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I think the main difference in FPS and Guild Wars play is the team vs individual element. In Guild Wars you really sink or swim based entirely on the actions of your team - put a top player into a crappy team and you'll never guess that they have a top player. In an FPS, even if a top player can't always save a crappy team, he'll be good enough that it's quite noticeable and his actions will have a much greater effect.

Good FPS definitely do require tactical thought, but a lot of being good at an FPS is being good as an individual. Being good at Guild Wars as an individual means very little if you're not coordinated and moving as a unit with your team.

Riotgear · Nov 09, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

You can ask the top-ranking teams in even the twitchiest games, and they'll all tell you that every match ultimately comes down to tactics, not who has that godly player with 20 ping and a mouse that automatically aims for the head. Unless one team is just really bad.

What's even more ironic is most FPS games do teams of 8v8, so you're even managing the same number of players.

I'm not trying to say FPS games are the pinnacle of strategy, but GW does not manifest as a terribly complex game compared to, oh, just about any RTS game. (Except the C&C series, where the winning strategy is "make more tanks.")

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

being good at an FPS is being good as an individual. Being good at Guild Wars as an individual means very little if you're not coordinated and moving as a unit with your team.

It's the same with most team game modes. I used to play in one of the top UT CTF teams, and teamwork is absolutely essential because the easiest way to win almost any confrontation is to outnumber your opponent. Proper communication and planning to track flag carriers and intercept them with a superior force is essential.

Individual skill can often be controlled. Good tactics make skill irrelevant, like jamming choke points with explosive spam, or hogging powerups so the "good" players have to chew through twice as much health to score a kill.

I would say the reverse is true though. That is, a crappy player in most FPSes can get by as long as they can follow orders (can you pick up a flag? Do your WASD keys work? Can you kill someone with something that just spams bullets? Then you can cover the flag carrier!), a crappy player in GW is just agonizing.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 09, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

That is, a crappy player in most FPSes can get by as long as they can follow orders (can you pick up a flag? Do your WASD keys work? Can you kill someone with something that just spams bullets? Then you can cover the flag carrier!), a crappy player in GW is just agonizing.

Actually, that sounds just like flagging in Guild Wars.

Sertu · Nov 09, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

We'll before playing GW, i owned a ET clan (eventually we got sick of each other and everyone departed 2 different high ranked clans (if ur playing and yelling through vent at each evening, stuff like that happens), except me, i chose 2 stop playing completly and start playing GW). Well now for my point the main skills or the same (except for the aim that is wich of course u dont need in gw). Its all in team play. We all knew, when we were gonna make our move, how and what everyone is suposed to do. Wich is exactly the same as we now do in GW.
Then we used reflexes to make head shots, now i use them 2 interrupt the enemy monk. In ET we planted mines, now we plant traps. In ET we bodyblocked doors, now we bodyblock ghostly heroes. Not much difference imo.

Riotgear · Nov 09, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Actually, that sounds just like flagging in Guild Wars.

Actually you're right. Damn I suck.

Mared Text · Nov 11, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Guild wars does require skill, but not as much imo as a good fps at high playing levels. Guild wars does require skill that fps's do not require though, such as putting together a good build initialy before combat takes place. Unfortunaly, this skill is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there are an extremely limited number of effective builds to choose from in guild wars.

Ensign · Nov 11, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

The thing that sets Guild Wars apart from other games is that it has strong variable strategic *and* tactical levels, and that the two influence each other heavily. What I mean by that, is that a good FPS is entirely tactics. Every game you enter is played out with the same rules, and the effective tactics vary only slightly from game to game. Guild Wars has variable strategy in the pre-match phase. You can bring different builds, which change the tactics that you can execute. Similarly, the build your opponent brings influences your tactics as well.

I will agree with sentiments about this game having no skill, to the extent that much of the game's population is nowhere near a phase where they can think about things tactically, and things are won very heavily on copying simple strategies. This is the equivilent of saying that CTF in Unreal Tournament required no skill or tactics because the game was just a twitchfest in pub instagib arenas. There's a ton of strategy and tactics in many games, unfortunately very few players ever get to see them.

Peace,
-CxE