Curse

TheOneMephisto · Nov 07, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Try a heal + glimmer for a fast spike works good for me. (Although ive never taken anywhere other than ab yet)

Edit - JR thats what Skuld mean i think. Try somethin like Dismiss, Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond/Shield Of Absorption, Glimmer Of Light, Words Of Comfort, etheral light/orison(something for self and others), optional/Healing Seed(ha)/Infuse/holy veil, Leech Signet/channeling, Power Drain

15 Heals +1+3
10 Divine +1
8 Inspiration (errr dunno if thats right)
Dump in prot +1

Running sups on a monk?

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 07, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I find it more effective i still have 500 health with sup vigor shepeards/tats armor and +30 on offhand. Thats a good chunk of health i got never really had a prob i know now that i cant swap armor it might seem bad but thats what i got shepeards for.

Skuld · Nov 08, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

I have judge's with a minor, 60 health set and a vitae rune currently - I have 100 health, +10 armour vs physical without my +armour set more than you for the loss of an insignificant amount of healing, much increasing my survival rate. A dead monk can't protect anyone

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3049294

moriz · Nov 08, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

i've tested WM's new shadow prison axe warrior. apparently, it can do close to 450 damage by itself in an adrenal spike. 600 hp will be the new standard now with the changes, and anyone (with the exception of a cripshot) with hp lower than that is simply unacceptable.

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 08, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Moriz, when a war pops up next to u are u just going to be like... OMG A WAR I BETTER DO ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING! If a war pops up next to me its prot spirit or spirit bond right away. Once someone sees u take 10% of ur health or so in dmg i think theyll heal u. Most classes carry some sort of defense or self healing with them in pvp. It might do 450 dmg but u didnt take into consideration healing. Also moving slow is nothing being knocked down is scary. When ur knocked down u cant do anything other than stances, shouts and some skills. Also when it comes down to it some skills arnt worth it when low on attributes especially war and monk skills.

moriz · Nov 08, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

so, you think you can preprot yourself ALWAYS? i doubt it. the point is: using a superior stat rune on a monk is unacceptable. would i rather have 530hp or 600hp with +10AL vs physical? i'll take the 600hp any day.

Drewfense · Nov 08, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i've tested WM's new shadow prison axe warrior. apparently, it can do close to 450 damage by itself in an adrenal spike. 600 hp will be the new standard now with the changes, and anyone (with the exception of a cripshot) with hp lower than that is simply unacceptable.

What does the axe use?...I normally see just dismember executioners which isn't awe inspiring dmg.

Tbh I don't really get the point of shadow prison. From the monk perspective, Deaths Charge is much scarier than Shadow Prison. I would rather be hit with a shadow step dismember that does almost nothing every 20 seconds rather than a shadow step backbreaker or dev every 45. What makes shadow stepping a threat is the ability to lead with a kd...not a "water snare." =/

I know you can do a Shadow Prison hammer that leads with hammer bash, but it still isn't the same damage or kd wise.

moriz · Nov 08, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

it's dismember-->executioner's-->critical chop-->protector's strike. since the last two attacks are 1/2 swing speeds, the spike is actually really, really fast. the build is also extremely energy heavy, however, but the spike potential is quite high.

but yeah, i agree the death's charge hammer being more effective spiking. the shadow prison war is good if it is paired up with a fire ele and a paragon spamming anthem of flame, and it really shines if the other warrior is a death's charge hammer war. for everything else, it's not as good.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 08, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

I guested for a guild, and played a shadow prison warrior. I used Iron Palm --> Dismember --> Executionars --> Crit chop

It's works pretty well.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 08, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Moriz, when a war pops up next to u are u just going to be like... OMG A WAR I BETTER DO ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING! If a war pops up next to me its prot spirit or spirit bond right away. Once someone sees u take 10% of ur health or so in dmg i think theyll heal u. Most classes carry some sort of defense or self healing with them in pvp. It might do 450 dmg but u didnt take into consideration healing. Also moving slow is nothing being knocked down is scary. When ur knocked down u cant do anything other than stances, shouts and some skills. Also when it comes down to it some skills arnt worth it when low on attributes especially war and monk skills.

And what happens when you're being diverted, galed, and blacked out with the spike.

Also, what happens when the dom mesmer on the other team gives you a nice 100ish damage shatter enchant, followed by an 80 damage eburn or more enchant removal if needed.

And while all this is happening the other monk is being galed, diverted, shamed, and blacked out also.

What happens if they get ~30% DP on you and VoD comes along? Getting just about 1-hit KO'd by an eviscerate is fun.

GG. There is no effective warrior or monk build in GvG that I've seen to date that requires a sup rune to be able to be run effectively. Warriors can spike just fine without sups, and monks can be run perfectly fine without them also. Without armor swaps, sups are nothing but a liability IMO.

Byron · Nov 09, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

The new balance of monk elites is really making the game interesting, IMO. And, goodness, I can really see the overall quality of monks simply improving. Remember when we would have energy drain, signet of devotion, and CoP(pre-nerf) on our Boons, but still complain about energy management? Those days are over.

I think, but can't really be sure, that the best two monk backline 8v8 is a divert/GoH and an RC/GoH, like the one I've seen QQ running. When run correctly on a high-communication team, it has the ability to counter a lot of enemy builds. But, it is clear that this tactic would suffer if the monks had to split.

So, do two blessed light monks still carry the most balanced backline? Hard to say - I don't think the healing power of two blessed light monks can keep up with Searing Flames and Rampage as One. In fact, I'll provide testimony that it cannot.

So my question is, where does the current meta place the backline?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The better your opponents are, the worse Glimmer is.

QFT. I really saw potential in a glimmer monk. But now that I've actually tested a few glimmer builds, I can see that its utility is small. It has little to no use in the multi-dimensional nature of GvG, especially in the current damage-heavy meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Warriors can spike just fine without sups, and monks can be run perfectly fine without them also. Without armor swaps, sups are nothing but a liability IMO.

Personally, I get irky when my axe crits for 50-55 damage on a soft target. I can see the thinking behind lesser runes on a warrior, but I might just be too old-school to take off my sups. As for monks, everything should be given to more health - Minor runes, sheperd's armor, staff mods. Running into battle with less that 600 health is a big liability, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

it's dismember-->executioner's-->critical chop-->protector's strike. since the last two attacks are 1/2 swing speeds, the spike is actually really, really fast.

The executioner's->critical chop is fast, but the follow-up protector's is subject to the aftercast of critical chop. It won't land much faster than a normal attack would. But if you expect your target to be moving, a prot strike might be a nice follow up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Blood I

If a war pops up next to me its prot spirit or spirit bond right away. Once someone sees u take 10% of ur health or so in dmg i think theyll heal u.

That's Monk 101. Damage doesn't come only from warriors, and not all spikes can be saved with pre-prot.

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 09, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

From what ur saying it doesnt seem like i would be to worried about that spike u could get larger with evis-> crit-> executioners-> prot strike. It depends also what im doing in gvg i wont use sup but im usually running ha now and since its mostly heroway and sf (also its 6 people less dmg to worry about) its not hard to keep up prot spirit to negate dmg. When i talk take into consideration im talking more about ha not gvg.

Seamus Finn · Nov 09, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

"I think, but can't really be sure, that the best two monk backline 8v8 is a divert/GoH and an RC/GoH, like the one I've seen QQ running. When run correctly on a high-communication team, it has the ability to counter a lot of enemy builds. But, it is clear that this tactic would suffer if the monks had to split.

So, do two blessed light monks still carry the most balanced backline? Hard to say - I don't think the healing power of two blessed light monks can keep up with Searing Flames and Rampage as One. In fact, I'll provide testimony that it cannot.

QFT. I really saw potential in a glimmer monk. But now that I've actually tested a few glimmer builds, I can see that its utility is small. It has little to no use in the multi-dimensional nature of GvG, especially in the current damage-heavy meta."

Well, if your monks can't split well, that strike me as a substantial weakness backline for laddering. Maybe I've been the only one, but I've run my Glimmer Monk next to a Blight and had good results. I can't say we've lost a game yet because I wasn't running Blight. As to what Ensign said about Glimmer: I guess I can agree to a certain point in that the very top teams tend to use builds where glimmer works out to around or maybe slightly less useful than RoF, but to me, that just means it isn't really a tourny skill(which I'm still not sure about). In the current meta ,where conditions and degen are very prominet, I've found glimmer to be stronger that reversal in most situations I've been in. I really like glimmer because it makes certain very nice healing prayers(yes, I think there are a few) viable since you can throw in a quick heal against spikes(and still pack a prot spirit in the build if you want it). I don't think there's a single monk backline that can handle everything that's thrown at it now since there are just so many skills out there now that are being tested, so the utility on other characters is key with any backline you come up with. I just think the Glimmer adds a little versatility though I would never run two.

As a side note, Zealous Benediction has been a nice TA/RA skill for me. I haven't tested it in GVG yet though, and I'm not sure I will. Not looking forward to the mental battle of thinking if i wait to heal a teammate just a second later I could get a FREE HEAL!

Thom Bangalter · Nov 09, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Tommy tested it, apparently he wasn't that big a fan. Maybe he'll post, I think it's around here somewhere though. I think it's better than glimmer though.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 09, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The executioner's->critical chop is fast, but the follow-up protector's is subject to the aftercast of critical chop. It won't land much faster than a normal attack would. But if you expect your target to be moving, a prot strike might be a nice follow up.

I'm almost positive that attacks don't have aftercast. I seem to remember trying distracting blow->prot strike on a dummy just to make sure, and they hit BAM BAM in less than a second apart. Test it yourself though, I'm not 100%.

Zui · Nov 09, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I'm almost positive that attacks don't have aftercast. I seem to remember trying distracting blow->prot strike on a dummy just to make sure, and they hit BAM BAM in less than a second apart. Test it yourself though, I'm not 100%.

As far as I am aware, the only attacks that have aftercasts are Ranger interrupts, and they only have an aftercast of .5s, which is slightly shorter than that of non-PB AoE spells.

Drewfense · Nov 09, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Well, if your monks can't split well, that strike me as a substantial weakness backline for laddering. Maybe I've been the only one, but I've run my Glimmer Monk next to a Blight and had good results. I can't say we've lost a game yet because I wasn't running Blight. As to what Ensign said about Glimmer: I guess I can agree to a certain point in that the very top teams tend to use builds where glimmer works out to around or maybe slightly less useful than RoF, but to me, that just means it isn't really a tourny skill(which I'm still not sure about). In the current meta ,where conditions and degen are very prominet, I've found glimmer to be stronger that reversal in most situations I've been in.

As a side note, Zealous Benediction has been a nice TA/RA skill for me. I haven't tested it in GVG yet though, and I'm not sure I will. Not looking forward to the mental battle of thinking if i wait to heal a teammate just a second later I could get a FREE HEAL!

For discussion why glimmer sucks go to:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10053259

I like ZB, but haven't made an effective build for it. I don't think the 50% is to bad of a mark, but since divine favor applies first, it is actually much lower. ZB is mainly anti-pressure, but I think there are some other things you can fit in there instead...depends on the build. It is a reasonable option though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I think, but can't really be sure, that the best two monk backline 8v8 is a divert/GoH and an RC/GoH, like the one I've seen QQ running. When run correctly on a high-communication team, it has the ability to counter a lot of enemy builds. But, it is clear that this tactic would suffer if the monks had to split.

So, do two blessed light monks still carry the most balanced backline? Hard to say - I don't think the healing power of two blessed light monks can keep up with Searing Flames and Rampage as One. In fact, I'll provide testimony that it cannot.

So my question is, where does the current meta place the backline?

Eh 2 BLights is still pretty good...we have played a ton of high pressure teams and it wasn't that bad. The only ones we lost to were War Machine in late VoD and sadly Moa Birds.

I don't think RC is that great a skill atm. It really isn't good unless there are stacked conditions (trappers/crip shots as opposed to taints and searing). The only really stacked conditions are YAA...but thats not really a problem for the monks. Divert is a good build, but I wouldn't leap at telling people to run it for the reasons you have alluded to. QQ for the most part runs a Boon Prot and Divert now. The two with the style of positioning they use is very effective.

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 10, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Zealous Benediction is all right in some builds. In gvg i cant see it shine because what the point of a free heal other(well heals self also)? None really if u were planning on running high prot for some reason then its ok but rc or blight could be better. Theres some good points to it. Large self heal can work with a 2nd prot monk and its fairly cheap when u heal peeps below 50%. This could work well on a non barrier bonder with the energy benefit and self heal.

Drewfense · Nov 10, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Eh 2 BLights is still pretty good...we have played a ton of high pressure teams and it wasn't that bad. The only ones we lost to were War Machine in late VoD and sadly Moa Birds.

Just beat MB at late VoD after having an err 7 at 7 mins. 2 BLights still with only 7 peeps > FotM. Home map ftw.

I used to be a big ZB fan, but it isn't something I like to use now...even when I think I am going to get the heal I don't. I think it is a good elite and can't blame someone for using it, but I grimmace when I am told to bring it while guesting.

Bankai · Nov 10, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Since when is ZB anti-pressure? Glimmer is much more anti-pressure. Lots of cheap heals are much better vs heavy pressure.

I really prefer GoL.