Curse

Lifeinthefridge · Nov 15, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Ive been recently browsing the HA forums talking to players in game about HA, and more and have found out some things. I also have been tombing for about 14months and have reached about rank 8 close to 4k fame. So I can basicaly say I ve seen most of the HA metagame change and evolve. Ive made many friends made many enemies, joined guilds, raged teams, had my ups and lows.I never really started with any friends just the hope that I could have the glory of holding halls and getting a cool emote to show off. Of course this is mostly what any new player wants to do right? Well alot of those players who had those same dreams around my time starting have done that or have got close. The thing is though I look back at how many endless hours ive put in on this night by night and wonder why it would impressive to anyone now.

I remember back before 6v6 during 8v8 battles were just so much more glorious to me and those who say HA has always been a joke it really upsets me. Of course somthing I have noticed about MOST of those players aren't the highest ranked or exp. But Imo this is for good reason why would they have a high rank if they never thought it was fun or worth playing. Then of course there are players like me who really enjoyed the idea of a live 24 hour tournamen't to become the top players in the world at that moment. While doing this you could achieve fame a REAL REWARD for PvP in my opinion to achieve a flashy emote, that Ill admit I believe would show some expierience that is unless it was not ebayed. I cant find the quote at the moment but, I have somewhere though Jeff Strain Stating that Tomb Of Primevial Kings was a live tournament and if you were holding halls at that time you were the best players in the world. Of course why cant this be true come on its supposed to be the biggest high end PvP why cant it be taken serious if you have a title that was meant to prove you were a skilled player in PvP? The answer to most of these questions imo can be answered by following the meta game and watching observer mode.

Today I watch observer mode.... Who do I see there? 2 real people one team dunkoro olias mage henchman healer hench, one other team very similar to this one. I really cant belive it anymore....PvP has been reduced to NpCs in a High End Arena being the best players.
The old Meta Game of builds mostly included spikes, Pressure Heavy Meele builds like IWAY, and heavy hexes. People see other forms of play and builds that they dont prefer or lose to as ''Noob or the players in them are just Iway Noobs, theyre just running some noob fotm build , but they really suck." In reality though somtimes players who make these comments can be right in some regard ,but dont have the right to offend players who run them especially if they lose to them. I ll come out and say I used to be one of those players who would degrade people who ran these ''FOTM'' ,but Ive realized somthing. Everyone thinks every other build is stupid or the people who play them are newbies. The fact is most of the highest ranked players in this game played these FotM builds before any of the lower ranked players and werent looked down upon because they did it first. The fact is people will do what they think works AKA observer mode, and most of the time its what does to achieve what they want to either have fun or get fame.

I really think anet misinturpred the double fame weekend as the reason why players flocked to HA. Im not trying to say 6v6 was a bad thing for the HA game. It just Imo wasent the way to solve any problems with HA. Yes of course after 6v6 was implemented Ha districts boosted a bit and that was nice... but every day thier number slowly decreases.. and Idk what Anet is thinking if they belive that HA is more popular then before or easier for the average new player to get involved in HA. Im sure most long time playes would agree with me on that statment. Most of my long time HA friends or new ones either quit HAing or Ha little or just GvG. Now the futre of HA still a big percentage of the PvP Community is at stake for those who are still left... or for those who we want to return. Really though 6v6 was interesting during the first few days of what builds were working,but when NF came out it really started slipping again.. Not that NF wasen't an amazing game imo opinion the best in the series. Heros really haven't done anything to help PvP or make it better.GW pvp was already top of the line.

My following message goes out to Galie Gray to tell Anet somthing. IM TIRED OF THEM BASING ALL THERE DESCIONS ON 1000 ALPHA TESTERS WHO ARE ALL MOSTLY PRO SOMTHING and none the other everytime and I laugh when she states that most or 80 percent of people love heros and 6v6 ha . AND GALIE TO STOP SHUTTING DOWN PLAYERS EVERYTIME SOMONE ASKS HER ABOUT HA. If you dont belive me check the most recent log on Nov 1 . Galie im not trying to flame you as hard as I try not too, you have to put your position in a player like me close to getting his Next Rank, wondering why becuase now ha is looked on as joke and try not to think that they are helping new players because those players aren't and arent learning anything.
Less people Ha after hero way not after 6v6 and NF. And ill be dammed if im told that im wrong about that and im tired of the more veteran player being discriminated against and galie calling me some whiner everytime she comes.

Heros and 6v6 imo were a lazy attempt of Anet to not really bring somthing to reinvigorate HA,not that at that time numbers were really decreasing that much or anything. Just another excuse not to make another arena but that brings up my last point.

According to the NF CE edition a new form of PvP will be coming a tournament of somekind that will have rewards, The question is if this new tournament is in anyway half decent how many people will still play HA and how many more people will think HA is a joke. Id also like to state that I don't appreciate when people claim that all my work is for nothing and its coming from both PvE players and the Hardcore PvP players...

I hope you will actually read everything I say first before you I read the next posts.. and really take into consideration what ive said and find a REAL way to fix HA

Thom Bangalter · Nov 15, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

I'm unimpressed by tigers.

Again: I can't believe no one has mentioned this before

Lifeinthefridge · Nov 15, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Yea posts like OP's are like heroways in HA, too many and too annoying.

Further proving all of the posters points of how stupid it is and If you took the time to actually read my whole post, you would know im not only complaining about hero way, but of Anets lack of ways of actually reinvigorating HA. Youll have to deal with these posts then, if you dont want to read them then dont please.

Vax · Nov 15, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

I fully support this thread.

Bring back 8v8

And also.. all you "people" (also known as noobs) dont know how much work it takes when you are actually playing HA with other people and now its just a bunch of PvE bullcrap that is frustrating the hell outta me :\

edit- lol gaile gray banned me once because i msg him/her (idk) and told "it" to suck my d***

good times good times
but ya it was my entire Tombs group that did this
SEE WHAT 8v8 INSPIRES GOOD RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING TIMES ^_^

stueyman2099 · Nov 15, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

A number of Points to Cover here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lifeinthefridge

I remember back before 6v6 during 8v8 battles were just so much more glorious to me and those who say HA has always been a joke it really upsets me. Of course somthing I have noticed about MOST of those players aren't the highest ranked or exp.

In my experience these players are nearly always more fond of GvG, and have very valid reasons for disliking Tombs. Also, while rank will show experience, it does not show skill. Many players learn faster than others. I hit a brick wall at one point and didn't push past it until I met Squidget and read Sirlin's articles on competitive gaming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lifeinthefridge

Of course why cant this be true come on its supposed to be the biggest high end PvP..

It's supposed to be, but it isn't. All of the most talented players in this game play GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lifeinthefridge

I really cant belive it anymore....PvP has been reduced to NpCs in a High End Arena being the best players.

Can't argue with that, I think Hero's in HA (or any PvP)sucks. However the reason for this is, as sad as it is, Heroes out perform most players in terms of skill. The best use for Heroes IMO in HA would be replace one of your players who dropped with a hero with the same attributes and skills instead of a henchie.

Overall, I think you are right in that HA needs somthing done to it to make it more attactive. But, as Thom pointed out, you're beating a dead horse, this topic comes up ALOT.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 16, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Thread heavily pruned, though I haven't locked it as yet. Let's keep the personal attacks, rants about caps locks, and uninformed assertations out of these boards.

I'm going to mostly ignore heroes in this post. They shouldn't be in PvP, nearly everyone agrees on that, and their presence in HA has made the arena even more ridiculous. There isn't anything else to take about on that front.

I was one of those supporting the 6v6 change when it was released, but it's easy for me to see that HA got a lot less competitive since that change. There aren't nearly as many 'serious' HA guilds and players that can go and consistently win Halls. They all left for GvG, or left the game entirely. Many people would like to attribute this to 6v6 combat being inherently less interesting, but I don't think that's it at all. I've had a lot of reasonably interesting and intense combat in 6v6 relic runs and 1v1s, certainly no less enjoyable than 8v8.

So why aren't there any serious HA guilds since the 6v6 change? Quite simply, 6v6 forces you to make a choice between killing and holding. Since you have fewer skillslots, you have to devote a larger percentage of them to actually killing your opponent and making it through the 1v1 and relic matches. This is in dramatic opposition to the reward system in HA, which rewards teams for sitting in the HoH as long as they possibly can with an ultra-defensive holding build. Good guilds used to be able to run builds that could hold AND kill, now they're forced to do one or the other.

8v8 HA builds didn't have to work in all the utility of GvG (flagrunning, splits, ect.) You also can't expect to face any particularly strong teams before the Hall itself, where a holding build shines. As a result, the good HA teams could afford to pack shit like Spellbreaker and Healing Seed without crippling themselves, because they'd still be able to field a strong enough offense to force kills. Now it's 6v6, you don't get to bring along all the nifty holding tools while still forcing kills on the enemy.

So what happens? You either run pure offense and suck in the Hall, or you run pure defense and have matches that never end on your way to the Hall. The winning team is the team that dicerolls or skips their way to the HoH while dodging all the other maps, since you can't expect to actually beat a team when the object is killing things. Previously, good HA guilds were the ones who could win the pre-HoH matches with as few offensive tools as possible, since they'd make it to the Halls with the best defensive build and be able to go on a long holding spree. Now it just comes down to luck and dice rolls and skips. Not a remotely competitive environment.

Reverting HA to the way it was 6 months ago might draw some of these guilds back, but the core issue remains the same. The HoH gametype is a completely different game than any of the other gametypes in Guild Wars, including the other Tombs maps. 6v6 just exacerbated that problem by forcing teams to choose between surviving further and killing things.

Ultimately, Arenanet needs to decide what they want HA to be. If they want it to be a gametype about defensive builds and holding spikes, they should revert to 8v8 and let people play the way they did for years. If they want HA to be a gametype about killing things and building to be most effective against the other teams, they need to do the following:

-Remove Heroes. Duh.

-Nerf Energizing Finale and possibly some of the paragons other defensive skills. These skills are wrecking every aspect of the PvP game, not just HA. Paragons are basically this AoE prot monk that can't be shut down and makes sure things never die. GvG matches are limited to 20 minutes by the VoD mechanic, but HA can go on forever without teams getting any closer to actually killing each other.

-Change the HoH gametype to be something that's about offense rather than defense. I'm not sure exactly what yet - possibly an Assault style gametype where the teams switch places every 2 minutes and each team gets a chance to hold or take. Possibly make the team holding the altar suffer severe healing penalties and damage buffs. I don't have a real solution to this one, but dias absolutely has to go for HoH to be a serious PvP gametype. Once people playing in the HoH are in the same game as people trying to reach the HoH, 6-man builds will be fine because they won't be stretching around trying to do too many things at once.

Will it happen? I don't know. Arenanet clearly wants to fix HA, and I think they're slowly starting to understand how their own gametype actually works. Time will tell.

phasola · Nov 16, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

One of the problems is song of concentration. That + stability guarantees cap. Before it was interupts+defense+offense. With the new skill 1 has disappeared. Before you could interupts both ghosts for 2 mins and still win, but now the only way of winning is keeping the ghost alive. That's why we've been seeing 4 defensive characters + 2 offensive (with defensive skills). Also 6v6 didn't help in the offense departament. You either run full offense team (4 fire eles

, etc) and kill everything until HoH, or bore people to death with ridiculous defense. I think it's useless to say which one can go on 1k+ fame run.

Divineshadows · Nov 16, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

One of the problems is song of concentration. That + stability guarantees cap.

It does not ensure a cap, it merely increase the number of interrupts the opposing team(s) must have to prevent a cap. Not only do you have to interrupt the ghostly, you also have to interrupt the 2 second activation of song of concentration and you have to this every time each is recharged.
Hard to do given you have less room for interrupts and you cannot depend as much on the other team to help interrupt as you used to be able to do.

Mr Fizzle · Nov 16, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

I think when Tombs was at the top of the line was around when gale wars were being used imo.

SlipknotOFA · Nov 16, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Im tired of coming into ha forums just to see bring back 8vs8 and take out the heros if you havent noticed Life there is like eight diff threads of people saying the samething and Im going to tell you what I told them get use to it if not leave go play something else bye

DIH49 · Nov 16, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

I thought my post in defense of the alphas was spot on. As for my attack on his language, see rule 9. I'll go over my points again.

1. Leave the alpha testers alone. As you obviously aren't one, I fail to see how you can have the knowledge needed to critique them.

2. Leave Gaile alone. She's a PR rep, not a PvP designer. How the hell is she supposed to know about PvP balance? Last time I heard of her PvPing she ran a R/Mo "Hidden Healer" for God's sake! It's like being mad that your doctor gives poor plumbing advice.

3. As for language, since my last critique was apparently too risque, I'll just quote: Do Not Abuse the English Language.

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As for Squidgets post, what more is to be said? We've known that the altar mechanic is a bad one for over a year now. We aren't breaking new ground here. There's no mystery about the problems of HA. We know what they are, Anet knows what they are, hell, even the Charr probably know by this point. The problem isn't articulating the issue, it's doing something about it. That is the issue we're stuck on. Until we can motivate Anet to affect changes to HA (and as a business that pretty much entails financial motivation) we are pretty much stuck.

************************************************** ********

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipknotOFA

Im tired of coming into ha forums just to see bring back 8vs8 and take out the heros if you havent noticed Life there is like eight diff threads of people saying the samething and Im going to tell you what I told them get use to it if not leave go play something else bye

Ahem.

Im tired of coming into ha forums just to see whining about threads about bring back 8vs8 and take out the heros if you havent noticed Life there is like eight diff threads of people saying the samething about these threads and Im going to tell you what I told them get use to it if not leave go read something else bye

Apple · Nov 16, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Fizzle

I think when Tombs was at the top of the line was around when gale wars were being used imo.

THE GAME AS A WHOLE was at the top of the line when gale wars and OoB Boons were being used. Everyone sensible agrees.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 16, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Just a minor note for David - not every post gets deleted because it's bad. Sometimes posts don't make sense once other posts have been deleted, so they get deleted too. Replies to deleted material can be spot-on, but there's not much point to leaving them around.

audioaxes · Nov 16, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

anet has screwed up HA so much and so many people left that i think its beyond saving
however i must mention there has been a steady decline of players in HA (and guild wars in general) since a few weeks after the release of Factions and some of this may have been out of anet's control from people naturally getting bored of the game and moving on

Senator Tom · Nov 16, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Apple]

THE GAME AS A WHOLE was at the top of the line when gale wars and OoB Boons were being used. Everyone sensible agrees.

PvP's best: OoB Boons and Gale Wars
PvE's best: Pre-AoE nerf/prot bond solo farming

derrtyboy69 · Nov 16, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Agreed, nerfing just kills games. Spirit spam was a little overpowered, but anet goes too far sometimes, actually all the time.

Nurse With Wound · Nov 16, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

What can I say... maybe something I would never expect to say before.

I agree with Wasteland Sqiudget, gg on your post

Nothing more to add to this, really, couldn't say it better myself.

(apart from 6v6 matter - I was against this change from the very infamous double fame weekend )

tomcruisejr · Nov 16, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Fizzle

I think when Tombs was at the top of the line was around when gale wars were being used imo.

yea, that was also the time when iway was in its best.

or you mean gale wars in tombs? coz i was referring to the gale wars of WM.

Program Ftw · Nov 16, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Apple]

THE GAME AS A WHOLE was at the top of the line when gale wars and OoB Boons were being used. Everyone sensible agrees.

And the 10e Cripshot <3

Apple · Nov 16, 2006, 01:35 PM // 13:35

They should make a "spring 2006" weekend. That'd be much better than crappy "triple green" crap.