Curse

Sergio Leone · Nov 02, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Does anyone know of a Derv counter yet in PvP? I started into RA tonight and it seems that no matter when I go against any sort of Derv my team is slaughtered, even with a monk. I am running an e-denial build I found here on the forums and I LOVE it. It works against almost every class I've played, except for Derv. They seem to be able to heal themselves/block me Mind Wrack and have it do 0 damage to them. Does anyone have any suggestions to defeat them?

unmatchedfury · Nov 02, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Dervrishes are really good at staying alive. I play dervrishes a little in RA and TA and here is my humble opinion. try not to ever have more than two guy adjacent to derrish at any time (this is kina obvious) also, dont bother removing enchants. that jsut heals him, makes aoe condition bombs, and generally doesnt affect him at all.

What does counter the dervrish. Hexes, inturupts, and mass conditions. overload the deverish with these, as a class they dont have a very reliable way to get rid of them. use snare type hexes most expecially. the derrish again has not much of a way to remove them. spike the overloaded dervrish when you judge the other teams monk is at his weakest. dervrishes can survive the degen but they have to keep using up enchants to heal themsleves and not as offense.

BIGGEST thing. Use KD if possible. the dervrish usually has ro remove encahnts to heal himself. Basicly treat the dervirsh as a warrior. dont belive tho posts here that say the dervrish cant tank. the dervrish is an AWSOME tank. he can self heal like a monk along with many defensive enchants and + armor stances (conviction anyone?) snare him / blind him and try to go for squichies first.

Vermilion Okeanos · Nov 02, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

I think it is really hard to say.

The job they do are so different in between earth prayer and wind prayer, to a point that you really have to play with lady godess.

Same goes to the avatars, you simply can't deal with any of the 2 avatars the same way.

I have to agree that snare is the best counter (IN GENERAL), however KD should be used against other target than dervish when you have KD available.

Riotgear · Nov 02, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

The thing to realize for countering dervishes is that they are both spellcasters AND melee attackers. That means melee counters like stances and blind work just as well as spellcaster counters like migraine, backfire, and dazed. You have two aspects of them to attack, that should easily be enough to fit a solid counter to them into practically any build. Oh yeah, and casting Spiteful Spirit on them is pretty much a free win.

Two other key points:
- Energy denial is a waste of time. They get too much from Mysticism to care.
- Enchantment removal is a waste of time. Most of their enchantments perform no action except for when they're cast and when they end. That and they spam them.

Makkert · Nov 02, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

small fix:

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

try not to ever have more than one guy adjacent to derrish at any time (this is kina obvious)

of course, kiting away and having zero next to a Dervish is better.

Makkert · Nov 02, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

small fix:

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

try not to ever have more than one guy adjacent to derrish at any time (this is kina obvious)

of course, kiting away and having zero next to a Dervish is better.
I had some fun with using Spiteful Spirit on Dervishes in RA yesterday in a bored hour.

Sol_Vie · Nov 02, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Desecrate Enchants, Strip Enchants, Well of the Profane...

Sounds like a necro would make a good possible counter.

ogami_ito · Nov 02, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

I used Energy Burn and Energy Surge and spirit something ( the new mes skill that causes damage and if you use it on a spirit it instantly recharges). Basically, I think that energy denial may work. The Derv needs energy to cast new enchants in order to have his energy cycle working. They have a casters regen, but they overall have a low pool of energy. So...direct damage works. Hexs work.

What about Scourge Healing? Does that work?

ogami_ito · Nov 02, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Not to get on the bash derv topic, but the concept of the class is unbalanced. Not just the execution...which does not seem unbalanced and is probably not unbalanced in GvG. You see, the derv outputs as much if not more DPS than a warrior, although not as "spikey". Yet warriors get eaten up by dervs (because of conditioning pbAOE). Every class in the game has anti-warrior hate, but no anti-derv hate. Basically, every class needs to have a warrior counter, be it a skill or kiting. But warriors have zero anti-derv counters and should not kite. Other classes have their anti-warrior counters, which will only have limited affect on a derv.

That being said, ranged attacks will probably be even more effective against a derv. As well as Cripple.

Riotgear · Nov 02, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

Every class in the game has anti-warrior hate, but no anti-derv hate.

Elementalist: Blinding flash, water hexes.
Assassin: Moebius Strike/Horns works on practically anything. Temple strike absolutely DESTROYS them, what more could you ask for against a dervish than blind and dazed?
Necromancer: The entire curses line. No, really, there's hardly a spell in Curses that doesn't rape a Dervish.
Mesmer: Diversion, backfire, empathy, ineptitude, spirit shackles, migraine, crippling anguish.
Ranger: Dust trap, throw dirt, any evasion stance, broad head arrow, distracting shot, crippling shot, NR.

Quote:

But warriors have zero anti-derv counters and should not kite.

There are a number of things which warriors have zero counters to, like flashbots or cripshot rangers, that's why you tap into your secondary to mitigate the limitations of your primary.

Quote:

Other classes have their anti-warrior counters, which will only have limited affect on a derv.

The only reason this is true is because of PBAOE skills and lack of reliance on adrenaline. The bulk of their damage still requires them to HIT YOU though, which makes powerful anti-melee counters just as effective.

And as I said earlier, anti-SPELLCASTER counters work well on them too. Those enchantments they spam are all spells. Their self-heal is a signet which requires them to cast a spell beforehand. You can own most dervishes with anti-spellcaster builds because of it.

You don't need warrior hate to be 100% effective on them when you can already counter them on a completely different front.

0mar · Nov 02, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

Not to get on the bash derv topic, but the concept of the class is unbalanced. Not just the execution...which does not seem unbalanced and is probably not unbalanced in GvG. You see, the derv outputs as much if not more DPS than a warrior, although not as "spikey". Yet warriors get eaten up by dervs (because of conditioning pbAOE). Every class in the game has anti-warrior hate, but no anti-derv hate. Basically, every class needs to have a warrior counter, be it a skill or kiting. But warriors have zero anti-derv counters and should not kite. Other classes have their anti-warrior counters, which will only have limited affect on a derv.

That being said, ranged attacks will probably be even more effective against a derv. As well as Cripple.

I love Dervs too, but Warriors still outdamage them consistently. Evis + Executioner's is the most damaging combo in the game. Dervishes have their uses, they have good skill combos, but nothing that is an instant-win button. It just requires a new level of strategizing.

Comparing a Derv to a Warrior 1on1 isn't fair. This game isn't balanced on 1on1 play like FPS games or RTS games. A warrior loses to a flashbot (or draws them), a warrior has a tough time against warrior-hate Necros/Mesmers, an Ele and Mesmer to an extent lose to interupters.

Sergio Leone · Nov 02, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Thank you for all the input guys, I really appreciate it. If there was one mesmber or necro skill that I could put into my Mesmer Primary bar that would do the best job to hurt the derv what would you think it would be?

I just love playing E-Denial and I needed a way to stop these dervs, if possible by myself, and still get to play the role I enjoy. These tips do help and I will see what I can come up with on my own. I might try your anti-Derv hour Makkert =) I see enough it would be worth while.

Sol Constituent · Nov 02, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

spirit shackles ftw. it kills derv energy so fast

Sergio Leone · Nov 02, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

I carry spirit shackles and I try to combo it with Mind Wrack so that when they do hit zero it hurts them but they just heal it out which doesn't make sense, I guess because of the enchants right?

Yanman.be · Nov 02, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Shut a dervish down the same way you'd shut a sin down. Sins and Dervishes fight differently, but they still melee spellcasters...

unmatchedfury · Nov 03, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

snare is their biggest weakness, and the fact that anti caster and warrior hate works on them. A Good dervirsh will be able to use signents and stances to keep himself alive when under dazed or mass anti spell casting hexes. however hexes that shu down both sides of this are very devestating to the dervrish.

furbat · Nov 03, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0mar

I love Dervs too, but Warriors still outdamage them consistently. Evis + Executioner's is the most damaging combo in the game. Dervishes have their uses, they have good skill combos, but nothing that is an instant-win button. It just requires a new level of strategizing.

I am not so sure I agree. If you don't take into consideration strength, chilling victory + reapers strike is much more damaging than Evis + Executioner's, but the DW and the damage is conditional. Granted Evis and Executioner's is more dependable, they require rage to use and can't be used as often.

Mary Maiden · Nov 04, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

i think the skills called desecrate or defile enchantments. anyway their is the main skill and a copy of the skill. it does like 60~80(i forget) damage for each enchantment on them. if u pack both these skills you can spike a dervish dead in about 3 seconds. even if it was only 50 damage and the dervish has 5 enchantments on him (which is quite common with earth and wind dervs) you will do 500 damage with those two spells.

Heinrich Deathlord · Nov 05, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mary Maiden

i think the skills called desecrate or defile enchantments. anyway their is the main skill and a copy of the skill. it does like 60~80(i forget) damage for each enchantment on them. if u pack both these skills you can spike a dervish dead in about 3 seconds. even if it was only 50 damage and the dervish has 5 enchantments on him (which is quite common with earth and wind dervs) you will do 500 damage with those two spells.

I too wish that these spells worked this way

But the problem is they don't

It is 64 (with 16 curses) to anyone in the aoe, and then add extra 21 damage for each enchantment on said person. that means 169 damage total per cast for your example. Still a good chunk tho, but not enough to kill'em off with two casts.

Kex Doomlich · Nov 06, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Well, you can start of by casting price of faliure and spirit shackles, and then add up some Ineptitude, and Clumsiness, a bit of images of remorse, and then if f*cker isn't raped and drained just toss in some desecrate enchants to finish im up.