Curse

i8work · Nov 15, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I noticed [PVE] last night doubly abusing this with a command paragon alongside the motivation guy also producing about 20 shouts per minute

7 pips of extra energy regen on those monks.

I'd prefer not to call it abuse

but smart use of available skills. One para is enough in terms of energy to defeat most pressure builds tbh, but more and more teams are bringing them which means IMO, spike or split is the way to go. virtually everyone is know bringing a motivation paragon battery, who also does fairly chunky dps.

20 shouts per minute is a fairly unreasonable target givne you have some fairly lengthy recharge shouts, I'd say one shout ending every 5 seconds is more realistic per paragon, so +6 energy so about 2 bips on yer monks. things like crippling anthem cant be ended early on the monks cos they dont have an atatck skill.

Personally i think there are other [almost equally] bust paragon skills in melee heavy builds like blazing finale, crippling anthem to name but a few.

Drewfense · Nov 15, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by i8work

I'd prefer not to call it abuse

but smart use of available skills.

Ethics?...The GW community tends to break down into either "play the broken skills so they get fixed" or "don't play broken skills because it removes the skill component." The former seems to be more of an excuse or cop out to avoid the reality of the situation than anything.

It is hard for me to see the difference between a spike team running oflame/bspike/et cetera and a balanced team that consistantly abuses broken skills. Both situations remove skill from the game and should be looked down upon equally.

Patrograd · Nov 15, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Both situations remove skill from the game and should be looked down upon equally.

Its approaching the point, certainly in our part of the ladder where you run an EF para or face the consequences. No point in losing all the time, so you run the character, even though in terms of "fun to play" it is right up there with spirit spam rits

And Lil, yeah you're right, I was working off theoretical maximum shouts per minute from the shouter we run in GvG. The actual output is less, although not much.

Well done to [PVE] so far this season btw

King Kong Monkey · Nov 16, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

It really is to powerfull. What about only make the energy works on Motivation Chants and Shouts? Then the ''Watch Yourself!'' spamming won't work anymore

Byron · Nov 16, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I've considered the basic problem of shouts, and they really seem to be broken at the base. Here we have a boost that applies to all within earshot (so normally, 7 people), which is, in many cases, as good as an enchantment. The cost, though, remains low, and the counters to shouts nonexistant. Anet screwed the pooch there, IMO.

Watch yourself is a great example - 4 adrenaline for a 7-8 second duration +20 armor bonus. This normally lands on all six fighting teammates. I can't think of an enchantment spell that can begin to compare to the effectiveness and spammability; let's not forget that enchantments can actually be removed, where shouts are unstoppable.

Charge and the like were fine - they required high spec and, before nightfall, didn't catch the whole agrro bubble. There was no attribute that made shouts energy management. Teams had to consdier bringing shouts to play where now it seems granted.

There needs to be some fundamental counter to shouts (ie, countershouts), IMO. Besides some obscure necro hex, I mean. This is comparable to the problem of rit spirits post-factions(remember displacement, shelter=10 energy?) Diversion can't solve everything.

Patccmoi · Nov 16, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Diversion can't solve everything.

Can't it?!

I agree mostly with what you said though. Imo the main problem of shouts atm is their complete and total absence of real counters. I mean yes, there's Vocal Minority (and don't forget Well of Silence! All Paragons are magnetically drawn to a Well of Silence and sit there, right?), but it's a hex in a metagame where it's frequent to see Divert Hexes and Purge Signets all over the place making it incredibly hard to stick (since a Paragon in VM will be their top priority target to unhex likely).

Could be easy to make something else to counter shouts. For example, Daze could give 50% of failure when using a Shout (would give another use to the condition) and Chants take 2 x time to activate and are easily interrupted. Some other hexes like Shroud of Silence could prevent Shout/Chants (i mean hell, why doesn't it already? Shroud of SILENCE). They could've include the condition 'deafness' (or a hex), and people affected by deafness can't be affected by Shouts or Chants. If it's a condition, it'd need to be a pretty spammable one akin to bleeding and likely in AOE (for example skills like Screaming Shot could cause 5s of Deafness to everyone in Earshot. It could be added to Temple Strike, etc.).

I mean, all in all the counter to shouts just aren't there. You need a complete and total shutdown of the Paragon to prevent shouts, stopping both his attacks and his energy or keeping him in a Diversion lock (and it better be a real lock cause he can use 3 shouts in .5s. Not chants though). It's not something i expect to see fixed in the current chapter because imo it requires too much and atm they can just work with skill balancing. But some real counters need to be included in the future or Shout/Chants risk suffering a nerf cycle.

And i also think that the range of Shouts need to be considered. It's not cause it's a Shout that it has to be Earshot. Watch Yourself! was perfectly balanced with Nearby AOE, there was no reason to double it where it became an easily used party-wide protection. For some Earshot is fine, but some would be really more balanced with a Nearby or Area AOE.

zoozoc · Nov 16, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

As long as they keep shoutes from being super strong, they don't need many counters. Stances have few counters, but you don't exactly need counters for stance's anyways. Before nightfall shouts were the same way. But something definently needs to be done, wether its toning down the shouts, or putting in more counters.

Clusmas · Nov 17, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

The paragon has no energy problems.

In turn, with EF your whole team has no energy problems.

For all I care, the paragon can spam skills to his hearts content. He/she should pay for it though. Free spamming is not on.

Brainless button mashing makes versing, playing, watching and thinking about Paragons incredibly, incredibly, boring. If you were forced to think about what you were mashing then at the very least you'd be kept awake.

Byron · Nov 18, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

As long as they keep shoutes from being super strong, they don't need many counters. Stances have few counters, but you don't exactly need counters for stance's anyways. Before nightfall shouts were the same way. But something definently needs to be done, wether its toning down the shouts, or putting in more counters.

Shouts are super strong. 20 armor is game changing material, IMO. 3 pips of energy with EF also.

Stances are balanced in that they have either long recharge time (dark escape) or significant secondary effects (distortion).

Shouts have nothing to make a team not want to bring them, not with a paragon around. As a team, I see two options - bring them or be exploited.

Darkpower Alchemist · Nov 19, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

This is a first! How do you complain that something is overpowered when it gives you the advantage or keeps you competitive?

It's not fun,because we get better defense than ever before?

A solid field commander in the midst of a solid team setting? That will definitely increase the efficeincy of your team. ANet has given you that.
As a battle field commander,you are the focal point of all commands,and motivate you followers/teammates to do all they can to succeed.

But,its overpowered? It's effective. It keeps your team in the fight. You will never be totally out of any battle with a solid commander on your team. Paragons fill that role. if it takes too long,that means that the Paragon is effective.If someone feels that a skill is overpowered, then don't use it until they fix it

. But, what if it never meets the nerf bat?

Then,you are the team that is out of the loop. Or is it that you don't want to get used to using a skill and becoming dependent on it, only to have it nerfed in its prime?

Enjoy the ride. You'll never know when It'll end!

Schorny · Nov 19, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

When I can run Incoming as my Elite on my Boon Prot with nothing besides Signet of Devotion as Energy Managemant, then something surely is broken. And when I can put Purge Signet in my bar too and still not run out of energy, then I surely beg for a nerf.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 19, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

This is a first! How do you complain that something is overpowered when it gives you the advantage or keeps you competitive?

It's not fun,because we get better defense than ever before?

A solid field commander in the midst of a solid team setting? That will definitely increase the efficeincy of your team. ANet has given you that.
As a battle field commander,you are the focal point of all commands,and motivate you followers/teammates to do all they can to succeed.

But,its overpowered? It's effective. It keeps your team in the fight. You will never be totally out of any battle with a solid commander on your team. Paragons fill that role. if it takes too long,that means that the Paragon is effective.If someone feels that a skill is overpowered, then don't use it until they fix it

. But, what if it never meets the nerf bat?

Then,you are the team that is out of the loop. Or is it that you don't want to get used to using a skill and becoming dependent on it, only to have it nerfed in its prime?

People aren't saying that they don't intend to use motivation paragons. Most of the people in this thread probably are using Motivation paragons, or have used them. It's possible to think a given skill is bad for the game while still playing to win.

I also doubt people here really care how the paragon is supposed to be roleplayed. What matters is that Motivation paragons needlessly drag out battles against shitty teams, making every match go to VoD with very few kills being scored.

Tainek · Nov 19, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

well hopefully the next chapter (we heard anything on that?) will bring some skill counters vs shouts, for example:

Hard of Hearing (Illusion)
Target Foe and all foes nearby cannot be affected by shouts for 12..40 Seconds

Shrill Sounds (Curses)
Target Foe and all foes in the area Suffer 15..70 damage when a shout ends on them

Prehaps even one skill change could fix it actually

Roaring Winds
instead of shouts cost xxx MORE energy (meaning adren based ones arnt affected)

Make it so
Shouts cost 5 energy more and take an additional 1 seconds to cast

(so even instant shouts now take 1s to cast, and all shouts are plus 5 energy)

wouldnt kill shout based teams, but it would make them not the end all to run

Aragiel Cz · Nov 22, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

well hopefully the next chapter (we heard anything on that?) will bring some skill counters vs shouts, for example:

Hard of Hearing (Illusion)
Target Foe and all foes nearby cannot be affected by shouts for 12..40 Seconds

Shrill Sounds (Curses)
Target Foe and all foes in the area Suffer 15..70 damage when a shout ends on them

Prehaps even one skill change could fix it actually

Roaring Winds
instead of shouts cost xxx MORE energy (meaning adren based ones arnt affected)

Make it so
Shouts cost 5 energy more and take an additional 1 seconds to cast

(so even instant shouts now take 1s to cast, and all shouts are plus 5 energy)

wouldnt kill shout based teams, but it would make them not the end all to run

the question is "WHO WILL WAIT FOR NEXT CHAPTER?" Do you want to play this game for next six month with this totaly imbalanced character?

Yesterday evening i saw in observer 2 guilds (LOVE vs. WETCH). First.. they wait until VOD. Then they fight for next one hour! i stop watching this in after first 80 minits..
It is not a fun to play this

Seltack · Nov 22, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Added to which the next chapter's championships will have the bar on old chapter skills again (probably, I doubt this will be a one off) so by then the meta will no longer feature shouts so new counters won't matter. We will be wanting the skills to counter the next imbalanced/crap class that gets added.

Victory · Nov 22, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

IMAO paragon shouts and chants are way overpowered. With an ever present speed buff if you face a two pargon build it's almost impossible to kill anything- one is healing for around 300 every ten seconds if your team is activating skills/spells and the other is giving your team massive energy and 50% damage reduction, combined with watch yourself gives so much defense it's unreal. Splits are pretty easy to face with some damage and only a paragon to heal- so it comes down to hanging around for VoD when you might actually be able to kill something or design a massive damage spike like obs flame- neither of which particularly appeal to me.

The Fallen One · Nov 22, 2006, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I think the rant on this has been exploited far enough but I will add my slight rant to it.

I really really wish that Anet had some more consideration before they realeased these over powered skills and leave them in the game until the next season ends. I completly agree that the entire concept of the Paragon's EF+Shouts and the shouts that they recieve in general are unrealy overpowered and add an almost required metagame. I have posted on another topic about this in the Glad's Arena but there are some things I think they need to do to all of them. There are some good suggestions in this post, but in the general run counters can't be the only way to defeat this new monster that Anet has created. Bring in the Nerf Bat.

twicky_kid · Nov 23, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

I think too much focus is being put on EF and motivation skills in general. The real problem is Leadership and Watch yourself. Watch yourself is free energy. Leadership will give you 4-6 energy per shout in most situations. Just about every shout is 5e or adrenaline.

Increase leadership to 1e per 3 ranks. Increase watch yourself to 6-7 adren with a longer duration at 0 tactics. Increase EF to 2 sec casting.

Incoming is great but I don't think its that's broken alone. The quickly ending shouts, chants, and leadership giving infinite energy to the paragon that is the problem.

phasola · Nov 23, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Maybe this is the reason they don't make longer seasons ?

Patrograd · Nov 23, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

The worst thing about motivation paragons isnt so much playing against one, as having to play one

Its right up there with spirit spam rits for the fun factor, although at least playing as spirit spam rit someone tries to hit you every now and then meaning you cant leave your pet monkey running the build while you go afk for 5 mins.

I have now refused to play this character any more after running one for three weeks as tbh it bores the **** out of me and I'd rather slit my own wrists.