Curse

skillsbas8 · Dec 01, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Ever since the release of Nightfall, I have seen much less use of eviscerate as the warrior's elite. NF introduced much more spiking potential and it doesn't seem that eviscerate is still the king it once was. Many new NF skills used for spiking on warriors, sins, and dervishes are much more specialized (Both plus and minus) than eviscerates pretty straightforward and reliable 2 hit spike. For example, Shadow Prison and Decapitate both introduce relatively strong spikes. Do you feel that eviscerate has been dethroned, will it come back, or am I just seeing things?

twicky_kid · Dec 01, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

NO

Evisc got a huge buff with critical chop. Another +30 dmg hit in 1/2 sec to finish off the combo. Its stronger than ever.

Decapitate is junk. 3 hits to activate the DW. No energy or adrenaline to turn off frenzy.

Shadow Prison is easy to shut down. Its just a gimmick people are not used to atm. Wait a week or two. Strategic counters are already being used with great results. Just a matter of time before it becomes common knowledge and its drop completely.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 01, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Eviscerate is still king of all-around axe elites. It's good if you want to be able to both pressure and spike, and remains a strong spike that's extremely efficent for the number of skillslots it takes.

The reason you see more axe warriors using other elites is Critical Chop. Critical Chop makes axe warriors without Eviscerate stronger than sword guys, so people are now giving axes to all the guys that used to have swords and free elite slots. Sword still has its uses, but adrenospike is big right now and Dismember + Exec + Critical Chop is a much faster spike than Sever + Gash + Final, plus it builds faster so you can spike more often.

Clinically Proven · Dec 01, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Decapitate is junk. 3 hits to activate the DW. No energy or adrenaline to turn off frenzy.

15/-5 axe ---> swap to 15^50 axe for 5 energy to cancel frenzy, no worries or a +5 axe (at a disadvantage to the damage) for crit-chop/protectors then sprint.

It's certainly a useable elite when part of a mixed spike, the main problems I see with this skill is:

* The choices for follow up to the DW are somewhat limited as they must be energy based.
* Weapon swapping adds additional time to the spike that pretty much cancels out the benefit of evis vs. decap.
* It's completely unusable outside of a spike, due to conditions (loose energy/adrenal).

Makes Evis or dismember combos the preferable choice.

Patccmoi · Dec 01, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

I saw Decapitate used very efficiently by teams using a mixed spike where it was the sole warrior. The thing is, there was no second hit. Decapitate hit at the same time as the rest (well a split second before) and DW was activated by the rest of the spike. For example i saw 3 Mesmer with Spiritual Pain/Wastrel's Demise + Decapitate. Decapitate did its job perfectly, doing a reliable ~250 damage. Spikes got off as clean as an OFlame spike and no usual adrenal spike can be as uninfusable.

If you plan on using 2-3 quick hits in IAS, Decapitate is bad. I think that Decapitate is truly meant for a 1 hit spike where the rest of the damage comes from another source.

And i agree that Critical Chop added a LOT to axe warrior and that Dismember-Critical Chop efficiently replaces Eviscerate. Ofc it's an added skill slot, but it frees your elite. Now people use Shadow Prison which is kinda doing adrenal spikes the newb way, though sometimes it's a truly good choice because the snare is required (for example we run dual Savannah Heat 'spike' in GvG atm, and Shadow Prison is used along with gale to make sure the target can't get out). But i saw even good Cleave warriors lately doing lots of pressure and being able to spike on short recharge with Dismember-Cleave-Crit Chop.

Really Crit Chop removed the necessity for Eviscerate to spike with axe and freed axe elite the same way sword has a free elite. I'd agree that Eviscerate is still overall the best all-around axe elite (basically it frees skill slots) but it's not a necessity to have a good axe build anymore.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 01, 2006, 06:42 AM // 06:42

I agree with all of your post except for the part about Cleave. Cleave is pretty garbage, and the host of really excellent warrior elites and non-elites Nightfall made available really highlight that. If Cleave were non-elite I would still put Critical Chop in its place. It doesn't do anything you care about at all.

Greedy Gus · Dec 01, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The reason you see more axe warriors using other elites is Critical Chop. Critical Chop makes axe warriors without Eviscerate stronger than sword guys, so people are now giving axes to all the guys that used to have swords and free elite slots.

I'd still rather run sever/gash/final in most warrior builds that I need to use a different elite on, rather than dismember/exe/critchop. The one area that the axe version shines is on spikes where speed is key.

The simple fact is, most people are not very good with swords, and it's just easier to spam your crit chop & dismember skills. The basic misconception I see from most sword warriors is that sever/gash is your skill 'combo' because of the way gash works. However, the best mentality is keeping gash tied to final in your mind, and simply spamming around enough severs that you'll have a bleeding target when you pull out the big guns. Gash/final combos are pretty much the single most deadly shots in a pressure build and where the easiest kills come from.

skillsbas8 · Dec 01, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I'd still rather run sever/gash/final in most warrior builds that I need to use a different elite on, rather than dismember/exe/critchop. The one area that the axe version shines is on spikes where speed is key.

In majority of spikes speed is the key.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 01, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

I agree, but the thing to remember is that pressure on the whole had been pretty inefficent all season because of Energizing Finale, and people's builds have been made around that concept. The reason so many guilds switched to armor-ignoring spike is to get around the infinite energy paragons provided to teams. Shadow Prison guys with axes are great in that role because the spike is faster. RC was also popular to deal with Searing Flames, and RC makes swords tougher to run because the Bleeding tends to get eaten for efficent heals.

Drewfense · Dec 01, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

I wouldn't underestimate cleave. It does look non-elite in comparison Crit Chop, but it is still good in certain builds. With prolonged spikes (so called pain trains lol), you can get through a dismember-cleave-crit chop combo 3 or 4 times. MH ran a good "pain train" build early this season with cleave on one of the warriors and did well (I think it was paired with a dslash, but not 100% sure, it has been awhile). This style of build is coming back into style with the Grenths dervish.

I am not a fan of Decapitate, but you can do some nasty things with it. The combo is a -5 energy weapon, hit bulls strike-executioners-eviscerate. Then side step and swap to a +5 (side stepping tricks the AI to give you a faster weapon swap). If you do it correctly, you can get prot strike-crit strike off before the target stands up. You actually have to delay a little bit if you want to try a crit chop interrupt, but it isn't really worth it. Don't really worry about a stance cancel since you can just use burst of aggression.

Edit: On the cleave topic, when I said combo 3-4 times, of course your not going to get the crit chop off that many times because of the recharge, thus part of the appeal to bringing cleave.

Greedy Gus · Dec 01, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

In majority of spikes speed is the key.

That's what I said. Maybe a comma belonged there so it would be more clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I agree, but the thing to remember is that pressure on the whole had been pretty inefficent all season because of Energizing Finale, and people's builds have been made around that concept. The reason so many guilds switched to armor-ignoring spike is to get around the infinite energy paragons provided to teams.

That's fine rationalization, but I've seen teams running YAA gankers with 3 axe skills instead of sever/gash/final *cough*, bull's charge axe guys in pressure builds, etc. A lot of people are seeing it as an easier alternative in general, not just for spiking.

There is some additional utility in having ~20% chance of an extra interrupt from crit chop, but I think it's generally surpassed by the utility of bleeding degen (especially against NPCs, in a pressure build, and for covering YAA conditions).

Lodurr · Dec 02, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Lacerating Chop will give bleeding but the question is how to knock them down. I was going to run Lacerating and Bull's Strike on my axe YAA in GvG but decided it's better to have a sig, since he's not a full-time ganker. Maybe Flail would speed up ganking NPCs, but it's mostly useless everywhere else.

An axe YAA is better at the stand than a sword YAA, but worse in duels and gank situations (though not bad, by any means).

Lynxius · Dec 02, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

NO

Decapitate is junk. 3 hits to activate the DW. No energy or adrenaline to turn off frenzy.

Switch to - energy weapon set, use Decapitate, switch back to regular set.

Blame the Monks · Dec 02, 2006, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

That's fine rationalization, but I've seen teams running YAA gankers with 3 axe skills instead of sever/gash/final *cough*, bull's charge axe guys in pressure builds, etc.

People use axe YAA to interrupt trolls and such with dismember + agonizing chop + crit. The chance of interrupt on crit is pretty much useless. I haven't seen anyone run a axe bull's charge, but I would assume they preferred spamming deep to spamming bleed.

Greedy Gus · Dec 03, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Spamming deep wound is generally a waste of time, though good point on agonizing. However most YAA infiltrators already want to bring d-blow or disrupting dagger anyway, in which case I'd say it's a bit redundant.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 03, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Spamming deep wound is generally a waste of time, though good point on agonizing. However most YAA infiltrators already want to bring d-blow or disrupting dagger anyway, in which case I'd say it's a bit redundant.

Freeing up a skill slot is worth it. I mean, agonizing is some +damage and an interrupt in one. Gankers are usually extremely tight on skill slots and would prefer to be able to take around 10 skills, so this just lets them take something else.

Greedy Gus · Dec 03, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

yeah, but it's also not a very good all-purpose interrupt, like a d-blow or disrupting dagger (which is basically a better d-blow that just doesn't add to adren). You can save all the skill slots you want, but at the end of the day you want to preserve quality. Hell I've seen valor forego running frenzy and final thrust in order to bring d-blow & disrupting dagger (unless I'm mistaken)

Legendary Shiz · Dec 03, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

yeah, but it's also not a very good all-purpose interrupt, like a d-blow or disrupting dagger (which is basically a better d-blow that just doesn't add to adren). You can save all the skill slots you want, but at the end of the day you want to preserve quality. Hell I've seen valor forego running frenzy and final thrust in order to bring d-blow & disrupting dagger (unless I'm mistaken)

This is very true, it seems like a lot of people put way too much emphasis on skills these days. Sure it's an important part, but it's not NEARLY as important as who's using the skills.

Valor would use the same skill bar, or probably even a sub-par skill bar better than I could using an average skill bar. Just like I could use a sub-par skill bar better than an average PuG could use an average skill bar.

Obviously skills are important, and they give you a huge advantage if played right. But tbh they don't mean nearly as much as people give them credit for.

Greedy Gus · Dec 03, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Good points, but I think you misunderstood me. I was pointing out that quality interrupt skills are worth their weight in gold in small skirmish / base infiltration scenarios. It's possible to skimp on the good ones and bring something less effective like an agonizing chop, but it's not generally worth your while.

shardfenix · Dec 03, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Critical chop is the only thing making axes remotely good anymore. Scythes are just so much better than axes. As soon as my war finds a good scythe, I will stop using my axes.