Curse

miteethor · Dec 10, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

We run any number of original builds - our forums are filled to the brim with them, but the only ones that get talked about are the ones that everyone hates because of a stupidly powerful skill combination. We had an awesome build that used Mesmers, Necros, and Rits for a spirit spamming nightmare of hexes that culminated in a Fertile Bomb that would drop half of the enemy team when we pulled FS, and a moderately successful Icy Veins build that could output rapid, high-damage spikes and had a very effective split.

We don't put the same effort into GvG that we put into HA partially due to ineligibilty. There is less incentive to really delve into GvG when your guild is ineligible to win anything for making top 32 for multiple reasons (i.e. a Korean guild with no korean members).

We play for fun. We run FOTM or we run something with our own special twists (like this build in question which is pretty significantly twisted when you try it) or we run completely off-the wall originals. What we DON'T do is get bogged down in the balanced conformity of the GvG scene. Sometimes I really think that top 50 teams want every team to run the exact same build so they can play footsie games with each other and not worry that they didn't bring enough defense for a particular type of attack.

Overloading your team on one type of attack strategy may seem gimmicky but it's a choice just like any other - do you take a lot of ONE type of damage in the hopes of overwhelming their defense to that attack? Or do you take LOTS of defense in the hopes of slowly grinding down their resources and sneaking in adrenal spikes? Or do you take 5 different types of damage hoping that 3 out of the 5 are going to work? These are all legitimate strategies with the same end in mind - winning the match. Who cares who is running what and who split and who is FOTM. In the end one team wins and one team loses. Play to win.

Blame the Monks · Dec 10, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I ran an improved version of this on a pug yesterday and earned 46 champ points. Thank you spearmen! Thanks to you I will earn champ 4 this season after all!

Dzan · Dec 10, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Funny, I don't hate the Spearmen. Thanks to them A-net will nerf necesary skills.

JR · Dec 10, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

The Spearmen do nothing but run perfectly legitimate builds, in GvG or HA. If you feel they are imbalanced or broken - is that the fault of Spearmen, or the fault of the game?

I personally like what they do, it highlights problems with balance and possible issues with skill combinations.

<3 linsey

Patrograd · Dec 10, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I personally like what they do, it highlights problems with balance and possible issues with skill combinations.

<3 linsey

I agree with this 100%

I love it when someone comes up with something like this, I mean really, a use for both arcane echo AND arcane mimicry in GvG? Awesome

Gj guys, keep those broken builds coming

Tristan_C · Dec 10, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

OH NOES! I forgot how to split and my team likes to clusterup in choke points.

I think this build is just indicitive of the poor quality of players running around, so grats to them for farming bad players.

Typical GvGer elitism.

This build wiped a lot of good teams full of people carrying this outlook into the fight. Its winning percentage is decent even among the sub-100s, which surprised the hell out of all of us. So, when pouring hate onto a build or the guild that runs it, remember Thor's comment that the objective of a match is to kill the enemy guild lord. It is not to run a terrific, community-approved build.

I Brother Bloood I · Dec 10, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

This is why everyone hates the spearmen? I dont find this over powered or a reason why i would hate them.

Franco Power · Dec 10, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

lol you think thats bad, DeeR and some other guilds are running blood spike and iway in gvg

Lord Mendes · Dec 10, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

"This is why everyone hates the spearmen"
LOL
I've played some good games in HA (RIP) against spearmen's crazy/innovative/different/cookie-cutter builds. Fun guys to play against and at least they are not running the typical searing flames build.

Servant of Kali · Dec 10, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by miteethor

Sometimes I really think that top 50 teams want every team to run the exact same build so they can play footsie games with each other and not worry that they didn't bring enough defense for a particular type of attack.

Yup

I have the same thought. Im not really suprised that *top* teams want that, im suprised that others copy those top guilds without knowing why top guilds play balanced.

Btw the fact that Spearmen are ineligible in GvG isnt the reason to play less GvG than HA. Honestly, HA isnt any hardcore PvP, to me it's something between RA and TA. So i'd look forward to see you guys more in GvG than HA. Ha doesnt have tournament either, you do get fame but so what..

Nurse With Wound · Dec 10, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Another reason why Guild Wars isnt a SERIOUS pvp game. Ladder ruined in a matter of two days.

Anyway, not a fault of Spearmen

They are a bunch of cool dudes.

miteethor · Dec 10, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

<3 to everyone who <3 Spearmen

If I got fame for every time I saw "no GG for D/Mo n00bs" in all-chat I'd be Rank 15 by now...

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 10, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by miteethor

I for one simply can't stand the high and mighty attitude some of the top teams who whine and complain if anyone DARES to run anything but a balanced build in GvG. The last time I checked there was 1 rule - KILL THE GUILD LORD. I don't remember reading anywhere in the rules where it says I have to take 3 melee from colum A, 2 memsers from Column B, 1 Runner from Column C and a Utility Class. Balanced builds are just as FOTM as any gimmick and I see every "top" team running the same skills mach after match. I can't help but laugh at the irony when a team running Steady Stance Fear Me warriors, RaO Bunny Thumpers, 2 Diversion Mesmers, a FlashBot and a Water runner starts ripping on US for running a FOTM!! HAHAHA what do you think you are running dude?

I haven't seen a true 'balanced' build in GvG for a while, and since the EF nerf this season has turned into a choice of 3 gimmicks at the higher levels. Every high-ranked team we face is running thumpers + searing (with Grenth of course), SoH gank teams, or Euroway. Fighting your build was almost refreshing, for the first 8 minutes until you guys started camping your lord.

I think the reason a lot of top teams complain is because of how un-fun it is to wait around for 17 minutes to get +5 rating. Your build is nearly impossible to assault when turtled, which means every fight a good team has against you will be a boring wait until 25 minute to wipe you at the stand.

Not that I care that much. Run what you like and play it how you like. Just shedding some light on why you get a lot of hate.

JR · Dec 10, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I haven't seen a true 'balanced' build in GvG for a while, and since the EF nerf this season has turned into a choice of 3 gimmicks at the higher levels. Every high-ranked team we face is running thumpers + searing (with Grenth of course), SoH gank teams, or Euroway. Fighting your build was almost refreshing, for the first 8 minutes until you guys started camping your lord.

Since when were adren-spike or split considered 'gimmicks'? Not that I really believe in tagging builds with arbitrary titles, just curious.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 10, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Since when were adren-spike or split considered 'gimmicks'? Not that I really believe in tagging builds with arbitrary titles, just curious.

A gimmick, in my view, is an offense without any options. You have one plan and you go out and execute it and if it doesn't work, you've basically lost.

Having played Shadow Prison spike a lot recently I don't think it has to be a gimmick, but it's made that way by a lot of teams that play it. The build actually has a pretty strong split and can pressure effectively if you shut down Heal Party, but most teams just use it as another 321spike build with teleporting deep wounds. Playing against most Shadow Prison spike teams on the ladder (even relatively high-ranked ones) feels like playing against a pure caster spike.

I don't consider builds that split a gimmick inherently, but the increase in power and variety of skirmish templates leads to a lot of rock-paper-scissors in the base. Skirmish skill isn't nearly as important when you have Shadow of Haste and Feigned Neutrality to ensure that you escape every time, and these builds usually don't do anything beyond their preset split. They just run in with their two pre-assigned teams and hope you don't have the right skirmish characters to beat them.

I agree completely that the arbitrary 'gimmick' title really doesn't apply anymore though, so to rephrase my original point...

Teams were already running the builds they were going to use for ladder farming before this weekend started. The builds at the same now as they were a week ago, except with a bit less SoH split because SoH makes games go to VoD every time.

s w o r d y · Dec 10, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

you're all jealous of their guild tag

Thom Bangalter · Dec 10, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan_C

Typical GvGer elitism.

This build wiped a lot of good teams full of people carrying this outlook into the fight. Its winning percentage is decent even among the sub-100s, which surprised the hell out of all of us. So, when pouring hate onto a build or the guild that runs it, remember Thor's comment that the objective of a match is to kill the enemy guild lord. It is not to run a terrific, community-approved build.

I am by no means a gvg elitist. I love running gimmick builds. The fact that you roll the "best" players is always fun. Guess what I've played primarily this weekend? Thumperway, Iway, and Bloodspike. I'll probably be flagging for obs flame spike tonight.

The fact that ladder play is relatively retarded, champ points turn GVG into HA, and 'skilled' players whine every time they run into a 'broken' build means I have nothing but respect for the Spearmen for taking advantage of current game mechanics--It just shows they have some very creative players in the guild.

BaseKid · Dec 10, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

The spearmen have always been creative in creating gimmicks, and when my guild faced them, we had no where really to split b/c of the map in gvg (Wasteland explained well, and this was before they were going in to top 100).

As for the entire ladder being ruined in a matter of a day, that is just retarded. This whole season has been quite different than what most people are used to...more guilds in the tournament, the paras (VoD constant), "broken skills".

Although I do find it kind of funny how everytime a new gimmick comes around everyone prays for a nerf...these builds are beatable.

There will be some quite significant changes done in the off-season, so for now unless you are clawing your way into playoffs, sit back, practice and just wait. You get nothing out of bitching for a nerf before it happens (if it ever happens).

dansamy · Dec 10, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

My first instinct when I saw the title of this thread was to close it. I'm not going to do that, but I am going to insist that the OP edit his original post to make it readable.

Arcador · Dec 10, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Well, the last 3 days the observer is a foul place. Whenever I click I see those:
Thumpers, SF eles (from 2 to 6 :0 ), Steady stance+desp+fear me spammers. It is not even funny to watch. And most of those are unknown - their tactical maneuverability is pretty low but they sometimes manage to beat good teams (like iB, NR, SmG and so on) that try to somehow overpower them but the pressure is a very high. I will not comment different skill combos, you know them all, but it is pretty visible that right now there is not direct counter. NR managed to bring one such but it is very narrow specialized.

It is some kind of sad how many guilds are ready to use broken stuff just to get a little higher in the rank (remember the signet+spirit bug that instakilled?)