Curse

Lynx Of Ithorian · Dec 12, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

This is another rant about how hero's are affecting pvp play - if your tired of hearing it please dont read on , although if you share my views please keep this topic fresh and noteable so hopefully an anet representitive will hear our call.

[PRO] Hero's significantly reduce the time it takes to form a party , and allows casual players to jump right into the action.

[CON] By my understanding this is why the traditional 8v8 was reduced to 6v6 - to reduce the time it took to form a party.

[PRO] It allows the less inexperienced players (relating to rank) to make their own group, who would otherwise find it hard to get into an organised group

[CON] We've all been there and done that , group with friends and pug groups untill you have the experience required to get into those higher rank based groups - The people that complain about rank discrimination need to take a step back and ask yourself where those higher ranked players got to their position , because everyone starts at the bottom - and untill now rank (fame) could only be aquired in PvP play (this is how you learn) - and Sorry to inform you anet , but 1 person 3 heros and 2 henchman is not PvP - thats PvE , or a scrimmage match at the very most.

Ok now i've done a few pro's and con's I want to put a few questions forward to the "pro heroway" community here:

Lets put "fame" into a pve perspective , by earning fame you aquire titles - titles are what drive the whole replay ability of guildwars.
Ok now lets just say that the "Kind of A Big Deal" title was reduced to "2" maxed out titles , or "Legandary Defender of Ascalon" only required you too reach level 10 -- Now people have the ability to get those titles you worked so hard for and invested many hours into aquiring - in half the time with minimal effort , in turn reducing the "prestige" of your title.
This is how we (PvP'ers) are getting treated by the onslaught of fame farming one man heroways - that hard earned fame we spent aquiring those titles are getting tainted by fame farmers (yes thats right , I said farm in PvP) reaching those titles in half the time by Ai controlled characters ?.

I respect anet and there move to involve the casual gamer into more competitive play - But if thats means ruining part of the game - that many people have put MANY hours into , you simply cannot do it and the longer you leave things the way they are the worse its going to get - rank 6+ players that have never even played in full player groups that simply dont understand the co-ordination a team needs to succeed in HA/GvG because they've had Ai contolled characters doing all the work for them. So how are we supposed to PUG at all now with no solid proof of a players capabilities - I dont want to be in a group with someone who farmed his title with hero's and henchman , granted before hero's rank wasnt really a solid method as many aquired there rank with iway - but here's the question , would you rather have someone who played gimmick builds in competitive player on player matches and has a natural understanding of important strategic moves like bodyblocking / lever control / kiting or someone who sat back while there "build / heros" did all the work for them ( which they may of aquired from a site ) .. I know who i'd rather PUG with.

Here's one suggestion you may consider , keep hero's but reduce the herocap to "2 hero's" in one given group and completely remove "henchman" from PvP play - henchman are sorely out classed by hero's , but theres no space for both in PvP play , unless your totally driven on turning guildwars into PvE orientated (which i'd be obliged you tell us - so we can move on to another game).

Everything I've said above ive explained throughly in the hopes this thread wont be flamed and closed - if you disagree with anything i've said feel free to post your views but keep them clean. If you agree or want to add anything else to the debate please dont hesitate.

Regards,
Lynx

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 12, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Removing henchmen completely from HA is a necessary step to making the arena something other than a joke. They cause similar problems to the vast majority of GvG players, but you don't see that because those players are in the sub-1000 range of the ladder.

Henchmen target things and click their skills when they have energy, which is (unfortunately) a lot more than many players will do.

JR · Dec 12, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Horse. Dead. Beating.

Well formatted post though, high five.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 12, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

If I could bot my way to r9, I would. Heroes make that way easier.

What JR said.

audioaxes · Dec 12, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

too late anet has done their damage, too many ppl left ha and gw for good, gg

RandomEngy · Dec 12, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Rank inflation isn't a good reason to complain about Heroes. Having to fight retarded hero groups at the start is. The reason being is that while hero groups get eliminated in the first few rounds, they allow real teams to get vastly more fame by offering a few easy wins at the start. And since you get more fame for each round you win, the real teams end up getting something like 3 or 4 times the fame as hero groups, staying well ahead of them in terms of fame. True, people playing after the 6v6 change will get more fame than people playing before, but that kind of makes sense because the people who have played more in 6v6 are better suited to the new environment.

Also:

Quote:

[PRO] Hero's significantly reduce the time it takes to form a party , and allows casual players to jump right into the action.

[CON] By my understanding this is why the traditional 8v8 was reduced to 6v6 - to reduce the time it took to form a party.

That point does not refute the original statement. 6v6 or 8v8, heroes still make it easier for casual players to form a party and jump into the action.

Also, that's not the only reason for the 6v6 change. In 8v8, you could just take a handful of offensive skills to spike, then dedicate the entire rest of your team to defense to hold the altar. For the most part that's not possible any more.

Lynx Of Ithorian · Dec 13, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

Rank inflation isn't a good reason to complain about Heroes. Having to fight retarded hero groups at the start is. The reason being is that while hero groups get eliminated in the first few rounds, they allow real teams to get vastly more fame by offering a few easy wins at the start. And since you get more fame for each round you win, the real teams end up getting something like 3 or 4 times the fame as hero groups, staying well ahead of them in terms of fame. True, people playing after the 6v6 change will get more fame than people playing before, but that kind of makes sense because the people who have played more in 6v6 are better suited to the new environment.

Also:

That point does not refute the original statement. 6v6 or 8v8, heroes still make it easier for casual players to form a party and jump into the action.

Also, that's not the only reason for the 6v6 change. In 8v8, you could just take a handful of offensive skills to spike, then dedicate the entire rest of your team to defense to hold the altar. For the most part that's not possible any more.

Your joking me right ? were you asleep during the whole dual paragon phase where random groups were holding halls 30+ times in a row ? I assure you that did not happen with 8 v 8.

So , let me get this right - these hero groups be as they may , do not get past the first few maps ? according to you correct ?. Well I know this is wrong , but assuming you were right you are now telling me that in order to keep up (ahead) of these heroway farmers I have to reduce my playing time to grind out fame as fast as I can ? - sorry to inform you but "grind" isnt part of my vocabulary which is the main reason I dont pve at all. You didnt give me one viable reason why hero's should remain - if your against my statement give me a good reason.

And "its easier for yourself to get into/form groups" isnt a viable reason , that doesnt answer why we (myself included) have to give up our part of the game where we dedicate our time to accomidate your needs.

*lemming* · Dec 13, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx Of Ithorian

Your joking me right ? were you asleep during the whole dual paragon phase where random groups were holding halls 30+ times in a row ? I assure you that did not happen with 8 v 8.

o rly?

Eilsys · Dec 13, 2006, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I disagree about taking out henchmen, but heroes should be limited. I'm tired of fighting four or five heroways on the way to Halls. And of course, since heroway's been so successful at fame farming, the good players still playing are going to do it to, with no better alternative.

Henchmen aren't the problem, I don't remember anyone complaining about Henchway. It's just there's no variety... just Searing Flames Eles and Mystic Wrath Spike (only human teams you see usually). And then the retarded two Paragons/two or three Monks with one offensive toon that fight you for an hour (literally).

I don't think Anet ever wanted Henchmen to be as good as players... they've got only six skills (all core, right?). Adequate replacements, but not as good as players. Heroes make it so you don't need real people any more, and that's no good... the best run I ever had with a PUG was five fame in an hour or so (laugh at me, I suck), but it didn't matter because it was with fun people, and we had a good time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx Of Ithorian

Lets put "fame" into a pve perspective , by earning fame you aquire titles - titles are what drive the whole replay ability of guildwars.

Titles were introduced with Factions. Replayability has nothing to do with grinding [Something] points to get another rank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx Of Ithorian

Ok now lets just say that the "Kind of A Big Deal" title was reduced to "2" maxed out titles , or "Legandary Defender of Ascalon" only required you too reach level 10 -- Now people have the ability to get those titles you worked so hard for and invested many hours into aquiring - in half the time with minimal effort , in turn reducing the "prestige" of your title.

They've done that with a lot of things; I think it's better for their business if they pander to the largest group of consumers, and make their flagship PvP more accesible. It sucks, yeah, especially if you had a bunch of friends and your rank already. But it makes perfect sense.

DIH49 · Dec 13, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx Of Ithorian

Your joking me right ? were you asleep during the whole dual paragon phase where random groups were holding halls 30+ times in a row ? I assure you that did not happen with 8 v 8.

We did it with 8v8 and so did plenty of other people. It was less common (especially after GW:F) but it did happen.

Mental Leteci · Dec 13, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

We did it with 8v8 and so did plenty of other people. It was less common (especially after GW:F) but it did happen.

True, it was easier to hold with 8v8, but I don't think that has anything to do with 8v8 itself, couple of days after 6v6 came Nightfall was out as well. Nightfall = song of concentration. That skill is the ONLY skill which makes holding so hard.

Father Anansi · Dec 13, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

[PRO] Hero's significantly reduce the time it takes to form a party , and allows casual players to jump right into the action.

[CON] By my understanding this is why the traditional 8v8 was reduced to 6v6 - to reduce the time it took to form a party.

[PRO] It allows the less inexperienced players (relating to rank) to make their own group, who would otherwise find it hard to get into an organised group

[CON] We've all been there and done that , group with friends and pug groups untill you have the experience required to get into those higher rank based groups - The people that complain about rank discrimination need to take a step back and ask yourself where those higher ranked players got to their position , because everyone starts at the bottom - and untill now rank (fame) could only be aquired in PvP play (this is how you learn) - and Sorry to inform you anet , but 1 person 3 heros and 2 henchman is not PvP - thats PvE , or a scrimmage match at the very most.
Regards,
Lynx

You do realize you have stated all of the pros and in place of cons you have only stated brief arguments against them? Congratulations you lost an argument, to yourself....

It has been stated by countless individuals in countless threads, Heroes are not the problem. One doesn’t cure an ailment by treating the symptoms.

They (Heroes) pose a nuisance yes; a really irritating one. But heroes are NOT the Keystone problem and will not serve as a panacea if they were gone. HA is broken and has been broken, heroes are simply a new inconvenience.

Stop beating a dead horse.

Cheers,

Crone

RandomEngy · Dec 13, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx Of Ithorian

Your joking me right ? were you asleep during the whole dual paragon phase where random groups were holding halls 30+ times in a row ? I assure you that did not happen with 8 v 8.

So , let me get this right - these hero groups be as they may , do not get past the first few maps ? according to you correct ?. Well I know this is wrong , but assuming you were right you are now telling me that in order to keep up (ahead) of these heroway farmers I have to reduce my playing time to grind out fame as fast as I can ? - sorry to inform you but "grind" isnt part of my vocabulary which is the main reason I dont pve at all. You didnt give me one viable reason why hero's should remain - if your against my statement give me a good reason.

And "its easier for yourself to get into/form groups" isnt a viable reason , that doesnt answer why we (myself included) have to give up our part of the game where we dedicate our time to accomidate your needs.

The paragon holding teams are done. Nowadays you rarely see a team that holds more than twice in a row.

And fame has always been about grinding, in so far as the more you play, the more fame you get. My point is that to keep up with hero farmers you only have to play 1/3 or 1/4 as much as them, which I think is pretty good.

And yes, I can see your reason for disliking heroes. You don't enjoy fighting against them, and basically 6 of you are spending time defeating one person. But I'd hardly say that HA is "ruined" because of it, and you can't ignore how nice heroes are for filling in blank spots in your team. But I guess taking out the henchmen would be a good idea.

Mental Leteci · Dec 13, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

Nowadays you rarely see a team that holds more than twice in a row.

Take [ftl] (don't know the guilds full name cause I've been away for more than a month) for example, once they cap you'll have some trouble beating them, I don't think I saw them holding less than 4-5 cons in a row.
Only sad part is when their build becomes FotM people will call them lamers because they came up with something that works.

Captain Arne Is PRO · Dec 13, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Forgot the Ghostlyyyyyyyyyyy [ftl]

B Ephekt · Dec 13, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx Of Ithorian

Your joking me right ? were you asleep during the whole dual paragon phase where random groups were holding halls 30+ times in a row ? I assure you that did not happen with 8 v 8.

I can assure you that no random groups were holding for that long, they were all high ranked friends list or guild groups. Also, people held 30+ times in 8v8, even without spirit spam.

phasola · Dec 13, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Take [ftl] (don't know the guilds full name cause I've been away for more than a month) for example, once they cap you'll have some trouble beating them, I don't think I saw them holding less than 4-5 cons in a row.
Only sad part is when their build becomes FotM people will call them lamers because they came up with something that works.

QFT
I mean how exactly do you define something balanced in 6v6 ?

byggryn10 · Dec 14, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

too late anet has done their damage, too many ppl left ha and gw for good, gg

Sadly, this is the truth of it. Everyone knows that the only quality PvPers that are left in GW belong to GvG guilds. The HA guilds have been destroyed, mine included. GG Anet

shardfenix · Dec 18, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eilsys

I disagree about taking out henchmen, but heroes should be limited.

Heroes should be limited to zero. If heroes are allowed in HA, I want them put in team arenas too.

The bigger problem of why HA is so ...dead, is because of the builds that reside there. Taking heroes out of HA will not make it any more or less fun. It will still be filled with Searing Flames and casters whose attacks cripple you, remove enchantments, and do more damage that warriors. That's leaving out the fact that steady stance says "you win" at the end of its description. Anet, you dont read the pvp forums, but if you find this post by mistake, go look at your skills again. You'll find that you accidently made them very very overpowered. A SF ele with 2 skills on his bar can solo anything without interrupts. That's lame.

sage tank · Dec 24, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Hero's reaction time need a nerf...... it is just ridiculous that if I have my mes assigned to the enemy healer, I guarentee that he will get 0 spell casted, not that I'm complaining

But still, it is wrong, hero's reaction time needs to be nerfed, and it also seem they are super smart knowing what enchant you have. If you run a tainted flesh necro hero, he will know if you have tainted flesh anyway even if you have other enchant on you. I mean, would a person know if tainted flesh is still on if there are other enchant on his ally?