Curse

Kyune · Dec 19, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Spiritual Pain and Wastrel's Demise are overpowered in their own right, but make no mistake, they're nothing more than an extension of what the mesmer was already doing.

Well, I can't say much about Wastrel's demise but Spiritual Pain is scary in a pre-nerf-Chain Lightning-but-better sort of way.

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

whiped ritualists off the face of the earth

No...

Quote:

# Boon of Creation: reduced Energy gained to 1..6.
# Shelter: increased Energy cost to 25, increased damage taken to 75..45, decreased recharge time to 45 seconds.

.... that did.

Quote:

Well, I can't say much about Wastrel's demise

Wastrel's Demise is the Punishing Shot of SP spike. I'd suggest a change, but their intended use of it is so hillariously bad that I don't know what changes it even warrants.

Ebon Dust Aura needs to get raised to 10e.

Blinding Surge is probably gonna get burned. I'm somewhat frustrated, because amidst all the demands for a good non-energy elite, Blinding Surge is going to wind up getting nerfed because mesmers are too good with it.

Xpl0iter · Dec 19, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

something was not right when air spike was considered better on attribute 12 air with a mesmer
when compared to that of attribt 16 in ele air.

Something was not right back then either.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 19, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Blinding surge: this spell fails at energy storage 4 or less.

Suck on it, mesmers.

JR · Dec 19, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Linking Blinding Surge to Energy Storage makes absolutely no sense at all, skill wise.

What if... · Dec 19, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

I think ANET meant for blinding surge to be an easily accessible blinding flash. That change would be completely contrary to what I believe the purpose of the skill is. Increasing recharge by 3 seconds, dropping the AOE blind, and killing the damage should put this skill in its place.

BTW, has anyone come up with a good solution to steady stance abuse, or did we decide we've exaggerated it's effectiveness?

Zoo X · Dec 19, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Put Blinding Surge Under Energy Storage attribute.

really good sugestion.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 19, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Linking Blinding Surge to Energy Storage makes absolutely no sense at all, skill wise.

Neither does having mesmers be able to blind and spike better than an elementalist.

Patrograd · Dec 19, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by What if...

I think ANET meant for blinding surge to be an easily accessible blinding flash. That change would be completely contrary to what I believe the purpose of the skill is. Increasing recharge by 3 seconds, dropping the AOE blind, and killing the damage should put this skill in its place.

BTW, has anyone come up with a good solution to steady stance abuse, or did we decide we've exaggerated it's effectiveness?

IMO blinding surge is an elite skill, and so should have elite effects. While it is a pain, I dont see it as being overpowered in a game which includes easily managed melee self cleaning, of which there are several choices, draw conditions and plenty of other cleaning tools. If this skil gets nerfed it wont see the light of day again. Remember, you are giving up prodigy to run it, so it had better be bloody good imo. Even a mesmer gives up alot to run it

Steady stance is OK - it was only really overpowered when combined with the then broken brace yourself. Again, it is an elite, so is competing with a whole bunch of powerful warrior elites for a place on the bar.

Rampage and searing both seem OK to me too. RAO thumpers are strong, but thats fine, they are hardly dominating the meta in the way that thumpers did pre TF nerf. Searing, well again its a powerful skill, but again its an elite, competing with blinding surge and prodigy. Did anyone run searing in the playoffs at all?

Spiritual pain seems a little overpowered, although i'd be reluctant to nerf mesmer damage too much tbh, maybe a little tweak required. Avatar of grenth needs a serious looking at, although it seems hard to properly balance a skill like that without taking it, and with it a whole class, out of the game.

Fall back seems a little overstrong also

JR · Dec 19, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Neither does having mesmers be able to blind and spike better than an elementalist.

If Anet didn't intend Fast Casting to benefit other spell lines, why didn't they just limit it to the Mesmer profession? What you are suggesting as a fix is ridiculous, it's like saying put Eviscerate into Tactics.

Patccmoi · Dec 19, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Personally i'd like to see BSurge be:

10/.75/6. If target is enchanted, DAMAGE affects nearby foes (not the blind effect).

10E is still very manageable for an ele with Air Atunement (6E really). They can use it easily more or less on recharge. But for /E that only want BSurge and won't use atunement, it becomes much less spammable.

It would also reinforce the damage ability of Eles (Nearby AOE lightning strike if target is enchanted can be a good pressure tool, and it goes with the 'Surge' effect, kinda like ESurge), which is needed. I don't think the skill would be worse overall, but it would have a different use. Less of an insanely spammable AOE physical shutdown usable at will by any class and more of a damage/shutdown skill which is a good mix for an elite.

As for Spiritual Pain, i believe it really needs a nerf because it's just too strong especially in Domination line (which is already arguably the strongest shutdown line in the game AND already has very powerful armor ignoring nukes). Domination line is about punishment and usually need conditions to work which is what prevented 5 Dom Mesmers to spike people down so easily before. You always had powerful nukes, but their effect was not always working. Energy Burn/Surge required target to have energy. You can't spike a monk doing 5 x EBurn, likely the 3 last will do 0. Shatter Enchantment needs an enchant, again you couldn't throw 5 of those. You had other damaging skills/hexes, but they're always about punishment and conditional. Spiritual Pain not only is unconditional but is the most powerful nuke on top.

EBurn = you have energy, suffer for it
Shatter Enchant = you're enchanted, suffer for it
Power Spike = you're casting, suffer for it
Empathy = you attack, suffer for it
Wastrel's Worry = you're not using skills, suffer for it.

There's always the punishment mentality. But spiritual pain? It's more like you exist, suffer for it. And if you're near a spirit, just die. It's extreme and out of the Domination mentality of punishment. I'd rather see it conditional if you want it to be more anti-spirit, something like

Spiritual Pain
10/1/15
Target foe takes 5..41 damage. If target foe is affected by a Binding Ritual or in the area of a spirit, target foe takes an additional 5..41 damage and Nearby foes take 15..63 damage.

Becomes a good spike with a nice recharge IF people are using spirits. And note that you could use your own Binding Ritual affecting the other team like Soothing or Earthbind, but the difference would be that they could be took out to stop SP. If there's no spirit affecting people, it doesn't punish them as much. Domination should be about punishment, every other skill is in one way or another. Target always has the option of evading the damage usually (burn away and hide your energy to prevent EBurn, don't use enchants to prevent shatter, don't cast not to be hurt by PSpike, don't hit not to be hurt by Empathy... ofc it's not always a good idea to evade the damage, but that's what Domination should cause : dilemmas leading to punishment or shutdown). You could decide to not use your Recuperation because the other team has SP, or design a part of your offense to take out enemy Binding Rituals if they're using some affecting you, etc. There's a dilemma with a punishment. Not mindless insane spike that does AOE on top.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 19, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaunshar

IMO balance changes after this tournament should be used to bring expansion classes more to the front. I am still dreaming of a meta without 3 monk backline

Erm, how often in the last.....year or so have you seen a 3 monk backline? (LoD runners don't count)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Turn down Diversion ever so slightly. Counters basically everything and strength scales up with player skill. Diversion in the hands of an excellent player is practically a one skill shutdown.

That's a good thing. Definitely. Plus squidget is right. With more and more skills being introduced in each chapter, it'll become impossible to bring specific counters to everything, (to a certain extend this is already so) giving a rock-paper-scissors effect. Having a general counter gets us rid of that effect (again, to a certain extend).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Spiritual Pain
10/1/15
Target foe takes 5..41 damage. If target foe is affected by a Binding Ritual or in the area of a spirit, target foe takes an additional 5..41 damage and Nearby foes take 15..63 damage.

Excellent suggestion. As always

tomcruisejr · Dec 19, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Spiritual Pain
10/1/15
Target foe takes 5..41 damage. If target foe is affected by a Binding Ritual or in the area of a spirit, target foe takes an additional 5..41 damage and Nearby foes take 15..63 damage.

tbh you just killed a skill. you should be a skill nerfer.

but i like the condition that you propose.

how about..

Spiritual Pain 10 - 1 - 30

Target foe affected by binding and nature rituals takes 10.. 82.. 106 damage and all nearby foes take 15..40..60 damage. This skill recharges instantly if it hits a spirit.

[skill]spiritual pain[/skill]

ump · Dec 19, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Just nerf blind down to 75% from 90% so there are more options for melee shutdown. Right now, it's practically required to bring Blinding Flash/Blinding Surge and Draw Conditions to counter it because it's superior to any other options.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 19, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Is it just me, or does Tomcruisejr first say Patmocci's nerf would kill the skill, and then suggests an even greater nerf himself? (not sure if thats correct english, but you get the idea)

HolyHawk · Dec 19, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Blinding surge: this spell fails at energy storage 4 or less.

Suck on it, mesmers.

me/e doesn't need inspiration to get energy back, there are plenty of extra points to be invested into air. I believe that b.surge might be over in a mesmer, since they don't exactly need an elite from their class, but it still takes the elite spot for elementalists, and they do have other options. Just remove area blind.

Patccmoi · Dec 19, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Is it just me, or does Tomcruisejr first say Patmocci's nerf would kill the skill, and then suggests an even greater nerf himself? (not sure if thats correct english, but you get the idea)

Lol, it's insane how my name always gets massacred on forums =p Not that i care at all btw, just makes me laugh to see all the ways it's written. It's meant to be Pat C C Moi, which in french is like saying 'I am Pat C'. Anyway, back on topic...

I'm not too sure how what i propose is killing the skill.

I halved the recharge and leave the SAME potential (5..41 + 5..41 = 10..82, i put attrib 0..12). In fact, if the other team has Binding Rituals on their back, you just have the same old SP but with half the recharge.

Your suggestion basically is make the damage purely conditional (no damage at all if there's no ritual), keep the same recharge as before BUT include Nature's Ritual (but you remove my spirit in the area clause which means offensive spirits could be used at will by the other team since they don't 'affect' anyone like Shelter or Union does). Not sure if i see it as more or less of a nerf than what i proposed...

I guess you could include Nature's Ritual but imo it makes the skill just as easy to use as it was before if you have like an Oath Shot ranger since there's too many and they all affect the other team. If i included Nature's Rituals in the skill honestly i'd nerf the damage too because you'll have the same W/A + 3 Mes spike, the only difference is that the 5th 'open' slot will be something like a trapper with Oath Shot and 1-2 spirits...

Thomas.knbk · Dec 19, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Lol, it's insane how my name always gets massacred on forums =p Not that i care at all btw, just makes me laugh to see all the ways it's written. It's meant to be Pat C C Moi, which in french is like saying 'I am Pat C'. Anyway, back on topic...

lol sorry bout that
And yeah, that's exactly what I meant

Bankai · Dec 19, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Just as a note- I meant a spiking class, as in a full spike of 1 profession. Obs flame spike, ranger spike, etc. And now, Mesmer spike with spiritual pain and stuff. Yes, it used to be a good support class in rainbow spikes, but it used to be impossible to have a full mesmer spike.

What if... · Dec 19, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Yes, both of those skill changes would destroy SP, making it dependent upon binding rituals is makes it too situational to be used at all. Instead why not cut the damage by 20 and drop it to the next lowest AOE, that way it's more like a unconditional e-burn with a longer recharge than an unconditional shatter enchantment with AOE attached. True the skill could still be used for spikes, but it would be no different from e-surge and e-burn in its individual contribution to a spike. If still more bloodletting is necessary, then change the instant recharge when it hits a spirit to a half recharge when it hits a spirit.