Curse

HolyHawk · Dec 12, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Concerning NF skills, some come in my mind.

1. Rampage as One: turn to stance, or ends if pet dies. Lower duration a bit would be something too.
2. Searing Flames: rise recharge to 3secs, reduce burning duration to 6.
3. Avatar of Grenth: 5~3% health loss per enchantment lost, I think this would match the necromancer class a little better.
4. Shield of Absorption: I know it's part of the meta now, but seeing how it places some other skills into trash, and I mean that we probably won't be seeing some skills forever, decrease it's duration to 5 seconds at max prot.
5. Blinding Surge: reduce conditional blind duration
6. Reaper's Mark: make maximum degen 5

Out of those, I think Grenth's should take priority care.

On the other hand, I think they should rework some (many) skills they introduced in NF. I am familiar with mesmer, and I believe they gave us a buch of crappy elites that are too situational. I mean, air of disenchantment, or even worse, hex eater vortex.

And regarding FN, I think it is fine as it is because first, it's an enchantment, and second, you can't do anything while you are under it or ir will end. Besides, that suits the assassin class well. Just my 2 cents.

Dragannia · Dec 12, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

The only new Mesmer Elite half workable is Enchanters Conundrum and its spike, though Signet of Illusions is iffy. Mesmers got gypped on Elites. Thankfully we have the good non-Elites to make up for it.

Xpl0iter · Dec 12, 2006, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

Concerning NF skills, some come in my mind.

1. Rampage as One: turn to stance, or ends if pet dies. Lower duration a bit would be something too.
2. Searing Flames: rise recharge to 3secs, reduce burning duration to 6.
3. Avatar of Grenth: 5~3% health loss per enchantment lost, I think this would match the necromancer class a little better.
4. Shield of Absorption: I know it's part of the meta now, but seeing how it places some other skills into trash, and I mean that we probably won't be seeing some skills forever, decrease it's duration to 5 seconds at max prot.
5. Blinding Surge: reduce conditional blind duration
6. Reaper's Mark: make maximum degen 5

Out of those, I think Grenth's should take priority care.

On the other hand, I think they should rework some (many) skills they introduced in NF. I am familiar with mesmer, and I believe they gave us a buch of crappy elites that are too situational. I mean, air of disenchantment, or even worse, hex eater vortex.

And regarding FN, I think it is fine as it is because first, it's an enchantment, and second, you can't do anything while you are under it or ir will end. Besides, that suits the assassin class well. Just my 2 cents.

I have said it numerous times. You need to nerf this skill, Buff the Fire line before even touching it, and if your nerfing it any way, Reduce the DMG, Stop playing with the recharge as it takes one entire searing flames cast with 1 second increment to its recharge.
Reducing its burning limit is even worst.

Buddy, do you even play fire ele? No wait, an ELE in General?
If so, tell me what do you run while using an ele
If otherwise, tell me why Not?

I have rarely seen eles asking SF to be nerfed. I am one for my self, cause i know what difference this one skill makes to my attribute line. Yes, i took it personally because ele happens to be my favourite character, and this One skill is one of the reasons why i find its damage close to that of the other classes!

Searing flames has numerous threads related to it, go and have a look and see how many people have contridicted the idea of nerfing this skill.
There is a REASON.

Searing flames, to be viable requires Glowing Gaze, Fire attunement, and Most of the time, GoLE. 4 skills to support one skill.
Ever seen any ele using JUST sf and not the other listed skills above?
Even if you take GoLE or Fire attunement, ( either of them ) out of your build, you still need 3 skills in order to keep Searing flames viable as a Damage output for an ele, so how about we stop messing with this one?

In last, read the post by riotgear Just above yours.
If you need more reasons, let me know, i will provide every skill listed in fire line here.
Otherwise, justify your reason to nerf Searing Flame by proving any other spell existing in fire line which has damaging capabilities on the same level as that of SF.

Remember, the very first SF cast is Always Burning, which can be easily removed with condition removal skills, there are way too many for that. Second cast is damage, that is IF the burning lasted to support the Second SF cast. 30 energy used it. unless your having a return with fire attune or gole.

I have said this before, i will Repeat. Stop playing with the description of SF. If you do, Fix every other fire skill before touching this so Fire eles remain viable.

As Dragannia Said above, there are enough good mesmer non-elites to make up for a non good elite.
Can you say the very same for a ELE in General?
List other viable damaging elites in ele class, over all.

I have given My support to SF with reasons, can you support your side of the argument with reasons?

Darkest Elemantal

Bankai · Dec 12, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

I think it's pretty funny that a lot of people are listening both Shield of Absorption and Grenth's as needing to be nerfed.

Shield of absorption is maybe a little overpowered. Change the recharge to 12 and I think it's a good enough nerf.

With Grenth's and better healing skills Anet obviously wanted to focus people on healing instead of protecting. Use this.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 12, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Avatar of Grenth doesn't make you focus more on healing instead of protecting, it makes you focus on blinding and snaring and spiking the Avatar of Grenth until he dies or it goes down. Counters to protection doesn't suddenly make Healing into a good line, it forces people to use other forms of defense. If there's one thing this game doesn't lack, it's a wide variety of counters against melee characters.

Riotgear · Dec 12, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

I have rarely seen eles asking SF to be nerfed.

When's the last time you ever heard someone say "I sure hope Anet nerfs me!"

Ele is my favorite class as well, but it's plainly obvious that the skill has some issues. Yes, fire in general needs a buff, but I'm of the mentality that something is less problematic when it's underpowered than when it's overpowered.

Consider thumpers right after the TF nerf, before RAO kicked them into overdrive again, and you'd see that there's sort of a sweet spot where something becomes a viable option without showing up in several copies on practically every team, sometimes being 100% of that team's offense.

SF itself needs to be fixed. It's a good indicator of the direction nuking needs to take to be viable (namely, shorter cast times, skills that aren't constantly stuck on recharge, larger AOEs), but by itself is a bad destination. Sandstorm warder is one such example of how the class can provide respectable damage threat and other utility at the same time, fire-majoring builds could probably do the same if multi-elemental builds didn't suck, but I'm not gonna start that rant again.

Xpl0iter · Dec 12, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Actualy, the thread related to Ranger spike, ( Was on guru ) was based on that "nerf me" concept riotgear ^_^.

The person mentioned the insane spike damage rangers pulled along with orders, that was one of the time when someone DID ask for it.

However, Back to the topic, My comment was more of a rhetorical type than general.
An ele in past had really not many options to play an elite for Damage purposes.
Sf made that viable, hence, crippling ele back to how eles were before NF, WITHOUT buffing up the current skills from Faction and prophicies is a poor choice.
I have Not said that SF does not need to be fixed, What i have said is, Fix the fire line before Kicking eles back in their fruits.

Savannah in my opinion, could provide that threat that you mentioned when related to SandStorm.
Though that skill scatters foes like any thing.
I don't understand, why Sandstorm doesn't scatter foes as much as Savannah Does, damage different over time i guess.. *wonders*

Darkest Elemental.

furbat · Dec 12, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I really don't think that any of the proposed nerfs to Avatar of Grenth will affect it much. My guess if they really want to nerf the skill, they will make it so every time you drop an enchant you lose one yourself. That would be a harder hit to dervishes and more in line with the class.

I really don't think they should nerf any of the listed abilities.

SF? Are searing flames builds overpowered? No. Good? yes. If a ele goes damage with no utility they should have good presure.

Reapers mark? No, divert hexes makes hexes cry anyway.

Grenths Avatar. Makes mellee trains very deadly, but...

Blinding surge, counters mellee trains very effectively.

Fiegned nuetrality? Its fine and needed.

Rampage as One? Would anyone bring a thumper without this skill now that dervishes are around?

Spiritual Pain? Ok here I agree.

I am not saying thoose skills aren't great, but it seems that people have this idea that warriors should be the be all end all of damage and power and every other class should be support or spike. I think that idea is BS.

I think the nerf to energizing finale was needed, and I would guess that the above skills all see a nerf. They will be nerfed into uselessness because Anet uses a nerf bazooka instead of a nerf bat.

What if... · Dec 12, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

the spell is written, releasing AOD "returns" the user to the original position and while we may see the return as a second shadow step I'm not certain game mechanics would agree with this. Even if did do this, that means adrenaline would dropped on NPCs; the "returning" warrior doesn't need adrenaline to apply immediate pressure at the stand, existing split tactics still wouldn't able to handle this.

I was playing around with the range on AOD's return yesterday. Though it doesn't drop you right the flag stand, it can drop pretty close by (within 5 seconds) at the Druid Isle. Other halls however, such the isle of solitude seem to have pathing issues that keep this tactic from working effectively (getting stuck behind walls, not actually returning at all, etc. Just some relavent observations I've made.

hyro yamaguchi · Dec 12, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Nerf: gaze of contempt, being unable to pre prot a spike, without an enemy having to spend points on it just isn't funny, make it something like:

If target foe is above 50% health, that foe loses all enchants (50% chanche of failure with 5 or less soul reaping)

ubard · Dec 12, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

...

List other viable damaging elites in ele class, over all.

...

uh... that's exactly it. Compare Searing Flames to every single other fire elite. There is definitely something wrong with the skill if it's simply better than everything else in the fire line.

so yeah, i agree that most of the other fire line should be buffed slightly, and SF nerfed slightly. (just a slight hit too the damage, it's not really a very overpowered skill, it just overshadows all other fire elites.)

you seem to forget that before nightfall, there were lots of starburst oriented teams.

and mind blast looks cool.

but with Searing Flames putting them all to shame, they will never get a game of use.

cheers.

Xpl0iter · Dec 12, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

you see, carrying mind burn makes it hard for an ele to do dmg, exhaustion kills it in PVE. Specially not for DoA where you have to go for long fights. Since mind burn is more of a single foe spike damage, you have to focus on spike dmg with fire, which ain't gonna happen.

Mind blast is a silly joke which fills your energy but does about the same damage as that of flare.
When compared to SF, damage is not enough, it is just energy filler.
Savannah heat is an awesome spell, though it scatters, otherwise, i would gladly use it. 4 savannah heat = lots of damage. But scatter just shatters the skill.
Starbust, in DoA, lets not go there ^_^.
SF, at this point, may and i mean MAY need a slightly nerf on DAMAGE ONLY.
Not to its burning, not to its recharge. But a SLIGHT damage reduction. Currectly it does 119 damage, then it would do 105.
issue is, when this comes to pve, monsters that we are using sf to damage with, at times take 35 dmg with 16 in fire, hence, making it hard for the skill to do any thing unless the number of eles is more than 1.

Hence, SF it self seems fine to me for PVE usage, but i guess, GW nerfing always works to support PVP and not PVE.

furbat · Dec 12, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubard

uh... that's exactly it. Compare Searing Flames to every single other fire elite. There is definitely something wrong with the skill if it's simply better than everything else in the fire line.

so yeah, i agree that most of the other fire line should be buffed slightly, and SF nerfed slightly. (just a slight hit too the damage, it's not really a very overpowered skill, it just overshadows all other fire elites.)

you seem to forget that before nightfall, there were lots of starburst oriented teams.

and mind blast looks cool.

but with Searing Flames putting them all to shame, they will never get a game of use.

cheers.

So, you are arguing for a nerf to SF because other ele damage abilities are underpowered? So basically, ele's need to be at the back of the bus. Got ya.

Xpl0iter · Dec 12, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Go and check the Foundry Brain storming thread, where I and Karlos are discussing whether to take an ELE with SF or a Necro with FoC.

Imagine the nerf on SF, having an impact on an average PVE player, who actualy got a toy to play with after a while.
In high level areas, SF still is viable, and is doing just about *enough* damage.

PVP is apparently not the only type of game play available to the GW community, mind you that. Do think of the consequences in PVE, and not just PVP, before nerfing skills.

Byron · Dec 12, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Yeah, I'm coming into this argument late. I'll seperate the problematic skills into two categories: what I would like to see change, and what I think anet will do.

Anet's primary concern is with math, I think. They want, essentially, every skill to be mathematically comparable so that player skill and ingenuity comes into highest regard. At least, that's what seems to be their train of thought.

Searing Flames: (Several changes came to mind) Any one of these would be a suitable nerf.
>Increase recharge time to 3 seconds
>Decrease overall damage done and burning duration, slightly
>Make it specialized. For 10...3...2 seconds, all of your other fire magic skills are disabled.

Avatar of Grenth: Elite Form. For 15...63 seconds, you cannot cast any enchantments, and whenever you use an attack Skill, you also remove 1 Enchantment from your target. Your attacks deal cold damage. This Skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Might make teams actually consider bringing it, instead of it being a given.

Rampage as One: decrease IAS and run speed to +25%

Shadow Prison:Elite Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 4...9 seconds, that foe moves 66% slower. 50% failure rate with 5 deadly arts or less.
>Also: increase energy cost to 10. Make it somewhat comparable to the other sin elites.

Feigned Neutraility: I would like to see this skill completely reworked. But, a more simple fix would be decreased duration and decreased armor buff (4...10 seconds, +40...80 armor)

Shadow of haste: decrease duration to 20...50 seconds.

Spiritual pain: Spell. Target foe takes 10...82 damage, and all nearby foes take 15...63 damage. For each foe damaged in this way, Spiritual pain takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge. This skill recharges instantly if it hits a spirit.

Wastrel's Demise: increase cast time to 3/4.

**Now, what I think Anet will do:

Searing flames: Increase recharge to 3s, decrease burning duration to 1...5.

Avatar of Grenth:Elite Form. For 15...63 seconds, whenever you use an attack Skill, you and target foe lose one enchantment, and your attacks deal cold damage. This Skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Rampage as One: decrease IAS and run speed to +25%, ends when pet dies.

Shadow prison: increase recharge time to 30s.

Feigned neutrality: increase recharge time to 30s, increase energy cost to 10.

Shadow of haste: nothing.

Spiritual pain: decrease overall damage done, decrease aoe to adjacent.

Wastrels demise: nothing.

ubard · Dec 12, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbat

So, you are arguing for a nerf to SF because other ele damage abilities are underpowered? So basically, ele's need to be at the back of the bus. Got ya.

good point, that came out of my fingers all strange.

what would be BEST is if all other underpowered ele skills were buffed, because let's face it, ele's still have the short end of the damage stick.

but if some reason that's not possible, i still think SF should be put on par with other fire skills.

i see the logic behind keeping fire ele's great, i just wish that they had some options for differant skills to use is all. And if that means actually nerfing SF to make it on the same level... that just makes more sense to me than leaving the other skills in the dust.

i would rather see a slightly underpowered class that has lots of options to accomplish what it wants to do than see a class that only uses 10 skills. ever.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 12, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubard

but if some reason that's not possible, i still think SF should be put on par with other fire skills.

It definitely should, and noone is saying it shoudn't. However, nerfing SF is not the way to do this. Buffing every other fire skill is. It may be a lot of work, but the result will be awesome.

Symbol · Dec 12, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

but if some reason that's not possible, i still think SF should be put on par with other fire skills.

i see the logic behind keeping fire ele's great, i just wish that they had some options for differant skills to use is all. And if that means actually nerfing SF to make it on the same level... that just makes more sense to me than leaving the other skills in the dust.

This argument is retarded. People aren't going to run underpowered skills for the sake of diversity, they'll just stop bringing fire into PvP, period. Wow, that's an improvement!

Lorekeeper · Dec 12, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

let me tell you a little story about fire eles. One experienced by yours truly... this epic story starts way back before factions... and spans the eons of meta that have passed.

Wat was one of my favourite classes to play in the old tombs pre-factions? Thats correct. Fire elementalist. Wat type of fire elementalist i hear you cry? surely fire eles were USELESS without Searing Flames because Searing flames is the ONLY way to do damage!!!!

But gather round the fireplace children and get comfortable... and let me tell you of the wonderful myth that is the dual attunement fire ele... used for their ability to continuously spam high powered aoe spells without so much as running near empty on energy. These mythical creatures had a skill bar like follows.

rez, ele attune, fire attune, fireball, flameburst, meteor shower, rodgorts invocation, utility.

I had the pleasure of assuming the mantle of one of these mythical creatures, in a variety of team builds. One of my favourite builds included a tainted necro... and a couple of warriors and a earth ele. High pressure builds seeking to overwhelm enemy monk backlines.

I would swoop in... fire in my eyes and bunched up soft targets begging for a taste of my aoe... wats that? chokepoint with 3 targets within nearby range? I walk up and give them a taste of flameburst... instant 100+ dmg to nearly half the enemy team... warriors are chasing targets around making them lose positioning and i constantly assess the battlefield for juicey moments of opportunity. I check my radar for clumps of enemies and i toss random fireballs around to herd them to where i want them. Warriors call a spike and i aid their efforts with a rodgorts invocation... mayhem ensues as it not only kills their target but injures nearby foes... spreading confusion as the enemies suspect another spike and scramble for heals while the warriors hack away at the next victim. Some matches provide me the opportunity to meteor shower groups of enemies as they seek shelter within protective wards... only to be solo spiked by meteor shower+rodgorts+flameburst in quick succession... dmg spreading amongst multiple enemies... infusers not knowing who to save first and prot monks struggling to prot spirit in time let alone protect against the dual warrior threat.

Oh those were golden times of the dual attunement fire ele. I hear they are extinct... but i have stories of yet another incarnation that carried the mantle of fire nuker with the release of factions... the release which i believe marked the end of the dual attune eles... for reasons which are lost in time.

Starburst. i did not have the pleasure of playing one of these elementalists (because basically i thought they sucked compared to dual attunement eles) but i had the displeasure of encountering teams made up of teleporting starburst eles and starburst assisted adrenaline spikes... so when i was hacking and dslashing as my beloved warrior in Tombs i felt the painful lick of flames as i became entranced by my frenzied rages. These eles would follow you relentlessly, tirelessly trying to unleash their starburst nastiness when they finally reached you. As factions brought more players to the game (and old players got sick and tired and rage quit) the wonder of the skill was spread by word of mouth (in other words observer mode).... the dual attune ele was a forgotten myth.

Then a new chapter of guild wars came to being... and travellers from all over brought news of a terrible foe... who made starburst fire eles look like fire breathing kittens... who had a devastating combo... and hunted in packs to maximise effectiveness. It was rumoured that a pack of these creatures could easily defeat the mythical dual attunement fire ele in mortal combat.
The searing flames fire eles burned a charcoaled swathe through the metagame... making all scream in terror and tales of the past were quickly forgotten. Everyone had become so fearful of this new incarnation that they had forgotten the true legacy of the fire ele.

and so my children i come to the end of my epic tale... heed my message.

If you cant play a fire ele without searing flames... dont bother complaining and go practice. I have been able to play an effective fire ele in MANY shapes and forms... some of which were not orthodox fotm fire ele builds... arcane echo flameburst anyone? Cos if we followed the line of argument that said that searing flames was the only way in which a fire ele could be effective... how would you explain fire eles pre-nightfall? This game has been out A LONG TIME before nightfall was released... stop being so narrowsighted . Can you honestly believe that it was impossible to play an effective fire ele before nightfall?!

Just because it takes ZERO skill and experience to become high damage fire ele using Searing flames doesnt mean that there is ZERO possibility to do the same using a different skill bar.
I was having a blast nuking teams into oblivion WAY before searing flames was available and WAY before starburst was available. Fire eles used to be one of the most reliable methods of totally wiping out iway teams in the past.

Lastly.... ill summarise why i believe searing flames needs to be balanced.

ITS TOO DAMN EASY TO PLAY... all you need is for someone to give you a target and you BUTTONSMASH UNTIL IT DIES or until you get a new target.

This is NOT how i want ANY build to be played. I dont want to fight robots who spam a set sequence of skills ad infinitum. I want to fight players who use their skills at the right times... and who punish my team for making mistakes and who show a sense of judgement and a sense of unpredictability that makes fighting human players that much more competitive.

I dont even care how powerful searing flames is... ITS TOO DAMN EASY TO PLAY... its making the gap between center and lower tier play almost meaningless.

Thats the message of my epic tale... all the new fire skills introduced to the game are too simple to use. Dual attunement fire eles were not easy to play... and so many who tried simply complained that they didnt do enough dmg... so they were given skills that just required a target to be called and just required a simple click of the button. No judgement... no tactical awareness involved.

Wat next? A single fire nuking skill that nukes adjacent targets to death in 1 hit? How about a 2 fire skill combo that insta kills nearby foes? OOOh then ill FINALLY be able to do dmg as a fire ele

give me a break.

learn how to play.

please understand that the desire to balance the game is based on the desire to have more choice and more diversity. If there are skills in the game which far exceed others in terms of ease of use and effectiveness... the game just becomes boring and full of fotm.

Balanced skills... gives us more choice. Unbalanced skills make choices for us.

its that simple

Ec]-[oMaN · Dec 12, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Ele's were buffed last updated(shatterstone and so on) They offer burst/spike damage and nothing more, except for searing flames, degen,+some damage, althougth you have a whole skill bar dedicated to it, just like any other pressure or damage character. If you were to buff all other skills to be on par with searing, people would still bitch about the other elements. I'd like to see the recharge go to 4 personally.
@Ubard
Don't know if you directed the ten skill things towards ele's but in general there are so many different routes an ele can take, they use a wide variety of different skills. And as always I still think any time a build that utilizes 3 or more of the same class there will always be imbalances.