Curse

tomcruisejr · Dec 11, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

make feigned neutrality elite coz its so good?

Thomas.knbk · Dec 11, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

make feigned neutrality elite coz its so good?

not THAT good

s w o r d y · Dec 11, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Right now the most retarded skill in the game is shadow of haste.

Lorekeeper · Dec 11, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

ok guys well nice discussion on feigned neutrality so far but any thoughts on the changes i proposed?

Any of you care to propose changes of your own?

Its all well and good saying that it is imbalanced in combination with shadow of haste and deadly paradox but unless we clearly state how we would like these skills to change... we wont have any room for complaint when they get changed and we dont agree with the changes made. Assuming anything gets changed at all!

cant make these skills critical strike skills for obvious reasons...
up recharge?
up energy costs?
up attribute requirements?
reduce durations?
make feigned neutrality a stance?
reduce armour bonus?

just listing the alternatives that pop into my head... no thought behind them at all

Oh and yeah thats an interesting comparison... Aura of Displacement and Shadow of Haste. Hmmmm it does seem that if given the choice, a player would run SoH which frees up the elite... and doesnt lose the ability to anchor somewhere safe while ganking... so it does seem that AoD is obsolete.
But how would this be balanced?

so many questions for everyone...

Drewfense · Dec 11, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Deadly Paradox, Shadow of Haste, and Feigned Nuetrality are all just fine, imo. It's an extremely strong escape combo but exactly the kind of thing that Elementalists needed to have great soloing capability.

Thats the point. Elementalists are not suppose to be strong solo characters. Thats why their only self heal is Aura/Glyph of Restoration, basically stuff to help presear characters.

One of the main balancing mechanisms in GW is limitations of character classes. This especially applies to soloability. Of the core classes, really nothing is suppose to be soloable outside of the warrior. Sure other classes can use secondaries to achieve self heal and soloability, but the skills are balanced to discourage such. For example, what makes the /assassin imbalanced at the moment is that these skills have no penalty. Healing signet can be used by an ele...but an ele with 20 armor isn't going to live that long. The assassin skills have no similar penalty.

Elementalists are not solo characters and should never have the ability to do as such...unless you want every single elementalist skill to be nerfed to hell to rebalance the game.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 11, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

It's not even a question of the classes original design intent. Changin those skills is necessary to balance ganking.

Prior to SoH + Feigned, ganking was actually dangerous - if you got snared in the base or overmatched on the split, you could die and have to res at base while your team fought at a disadvantage. This was how split builds were beaten and it balanced them very nicely.

With those two skills, there is no reason for a ganker to ever die. It doesn't matter if you get snared or spiked or if you're fighting 5v2, you can just use Feigned Neutrality or teleport out. Previously, you had to take an elite skill to accomplish the same things, and that elite wasn't hot on anything but a primary assassin.

One suggestion I've heard for SoH is to make it end when you take damage. I kind of like it - it would still be a strong map movement tool, but not really usable for escaping from the base because of NPC autoattacks. This would put the skill back into ganking, since gankers would actually have to play carefully and know when to pull out so they wouldn't be overmatched. Right now it's pretty mindless.

Lord Oranos · Dec 11, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Joy, I can't wait to use aod as the only viable elite for a gank sin again. I dont see feigned as overpowered at all, its enchant fodder.

Iotan · Dec 11, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

One suggestion I've heard for SoH is to make it end when you take damage.

So wanding a character now does the same thing as Wild Blow? Adding this to the skill would kill it completely, as if you aren't taking damage then you most likely aren't helping your team (although it would be amusing to see Shadow Form assassins using this). I'd rather just see the duration scale more with the attribute or increase the cooldown a bit. I've played gankers with these skills, and if you don't have SoH up, you don't go into their base. Scale it something like (15...60..70) with a recharge of 40. It would still be a useful combo, but it wouldn't be as efficient as it is now.

The same can be done with Feigned Neutrality. Instead of having an automatic 7 regen and 80 armor, scale it from (4...8..9) and (40...90..100) or something. If you want to have the skill save you from any possible damage, then you should need to spec highly into shadow arts.

My least favorite combo in the game right now is glyph of sac-->res chant. I've seen many teams running this on multiple eles (SF eles anyone?), and I just can't see why A-net would want something like this in the game. A hard res on a Mes or something was fine because you could interrupt it or it would leave the hard resser vulnerable to a lot of damage. But this combo has completely removed any of that from the game. Morale is far less meaningful as a team doesn't have to use their res sigs (the +life/energy is only truely necessary vs. spike teams; the majority of times teams push for boosts to restore res sigs). If you're able to kill more than 2 people in 15 seconds, then you're probably wiping their entire team and resses become irrelevent. I remember everyone used to complain about how the res sig mechanic was imbalanced and how it shouldn't be recharged with a boost, but this combo is (effectively) recharged 4 times within 2 minutes while giving virtually the same benefits as a res sig. Why?

Shendaar · Dec 11, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

FN isn't that good. All you need is to strip it and its over.

The only thing you need to counter a SoH ganker is someone with Wild Blow on his bar lol.

phasola · Dec 11, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

FN isn't that good. All you need is to strip it and its over.

The only thing you need to counter a SoH ganker is someone with Wild Blow on his bar lol.

You make it sound so easy. Why didn't i think of that ?

Servant of Kali · Dec 11, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Yea, and the only thing you needed to do against bugged Signet of Might was bring Ignorance spell. Yeah. Whatever.

samcobra · Dec 11, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

lol, FN is an enchant, it is prone to many of the same shit that all enchants are prone too. this game has too much enchant hate for FN to be imba. I've had way too many times when i've FNed only to have a dom mesmer shatter it and I die :-(

Drewfense · Dec 11, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

FN isn't that good. All you need is to strip it and its over.

The only thing you need to counter a SoH ganker is someone with Wild Blow on his bar lol.

Not really. Since the goal is to avoid combat with human oponents whenever you are at a disadvantage (aka have a melee character in your face), getting a wild blow (lol) is actually helping you by saving you the 5 energy cost of dash/paradox.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 11, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Any runner should be able to nuetralize the threat you present.

Which leaves it as 7v7 at the base. Doesn't sound imbalanced to me. True, they probably still won't be able to kill you without a good snare if they send 2 people back, but that's a misplay by the other team and not an imbalance in how powerful your skills are.

~Z

Well, we had a sin harassing the base as well, but he didn't want to retreat as much as I did, which means you have two people tearing up npcs and harassing the flagger, and if you send a warrior back he's blind a lot, and the flagger gets torn up from riding prodigy to the point that he's on 5, maybe 10 energy, so he's getting 100 dmg+kd, plus a sin is pounding on him, which means you need to send back another person to help the warrior and flagger, which puts you at 3 vs 2 at the base (or you put DP on the warrior, which sucks for them, or kill the flagger, and force morale), plus you can, at any time, shadow step back to the stand and have a huge advantage since they have to chug all the way back while you're already there. Then you reset your mark, help destroy something at the stand, and if they decide to spike you at the stand, you teleport back to your mark at the bridge before they can finish you off.

Druid's isle+shadow of haste=rediculous.

I actually think a sin+crip shot would be slightly stronger on the split, but the mind shock ele is way stronger at the stand for spike potential.

Shendaar · Dec 11, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Not really. Since the goal is to avoid combat with human oponents whenever you are at a disadvantage (aka have a melee character in your face), getting a wild blow (lol) is actually helping you by saving you the 5 energy cost of dash/paradox.

My point is that a ganker is likely not to attack if he cannot be under SoH. I am not saying that it is the ultimate counter to the SoH sin, but the fact is that Wild blow is a counter to SoH. Stripping AoD essentially produces the same effect ... While it is likely that it won't score you a kill, you are still effectively neutralizing your target with a single skill.

Etrik · Dec 12, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'm sure they could have gotten you if they wanted to.

Deadly Paradox, Shadow of Haste, and Feigned Nuetrality are all just fine, imo. It's an extremely strong escape combo but exactly the kind of thing that Elementalists needed to have great soloing capability. Now the actual Elementalist skills just need to be fixed so the class can have a wide range of variety in builds that can be played.

~Z

Yes, because we all know that the devs made those 3 skills with Eles in mind. I wonder why they're not Estorage-related then?

That was a retarded comment.

shardfenix · Dec 12, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

@shard
Can skills really be imba if they arent used? I've never seen signet of removal used..ever.

If for whatever reason, searing flames was never used by anyone, does that make it less broken? No. I hope that answers your question.

Signet of removal is an amazing skill, people just haven't played with it yet.

Vermilion · Dec 12, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

If for whatever reason, searing flames was never used by anyone, does that make it less broken? No. I hope that answers your question.

Signet of removal is an amazing skill, people just haven't played with it yet.

Point taken..But if searing flames was never used, it wouldn't matter if it was broken, since Anet wouldn't touch it anyway. Most likely SF wouldnt be changed in that case, and if anything buffed..but itd be so obviously imba in that hypothetical situation.

Idk if its been mentioned, but Sig of malices recharge may need to be upped. I predict it scaling under shadow arts and 10sec recharge or something. Sure its conditional and Ive been using it in a very cond heavy build, but idk.

Xpl0iter · Dec 12, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

if someone is plannin to nerf searing flames
buff every other fire skill in order to keep the line viable.
right now, searing flames is what that made a fire ele feel comfy in pve atleast.

I do not like the idea of having an ele's staple fire skill being nerfed after the amount of nerfs they recieved in past.

Other fire skills have insane recharge, cast time, and energy and pathetic damaging capabilities. Fix em before u even touch searing flames. Don't just jump onto an elite without considering the impact on an entire attribute line.

shardfenix · Dec 12, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

What 176 attack skills?

. And yes, EDA is fine.

All of them. Put random scythe attacks on your bar, set scythe to 16, and see how much they do in IotN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Get your monks +Armor or teach em e-management without /Me secondary? As for twin mooning for 360, you're way out of line with that. I dont get that much damage with SoH+JI+Sunder+double Crit+16 Scythe on 60ALs in Isle of the Nameless

Try harder. Dervish attacks critical for 120 at scythe 12, 60 damage is easy to add.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Glowing Gaze - Decrease burning to (1...6), increase damage to (5...57)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Not that big of a diff.

[skill]Spirit Bond[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Because? (Dervish) have the armor of a ranger, you expect em to do no damage aswell?

I expect a caster class to not have higher DPS that a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Mkay.. what?

Critical chop is amazingly good. Try looking at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

I'm fairly certain that can't be done. Or it's too hard and the devs cba doing it.

[skill]Balthazar's Pendulum[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Ironically, it heals for as much as Heal Other, whic hisn't elite. And increasing the recharge to 15 seconds would be pure insanity. It doesn't see much play outside RA/TA anyways, why nerf it more?

Doesn't see play outs...are you blind? Maybe 8 seconds is good enough, but as of now it's a free heal other, and it's spammable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Huh? (Spirit's Strength) sees like.. absolutely no use in GvG/HA. This is Gladiator's Arena, remember? PvP talk..?

You're under the (removed) assumption that something must suck if nobody uses it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

It already does that.

[skill]Ravenous Gaze[/quote]
Learn how to read kthx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

It does give the necro infinite energy. But he can't do ANYTHING else with all that energy. Bring wells/Consume Corpse for corpse control and you shut him down. Simple as ^^

Again, learn how to read kthx.
[skill]Jagged Bones[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

So.. 1 less degen and 5 less energy? That'll *really* hurt. Not.

2 less degen and 8 less energy. Do you know what scaling is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

QFT. Glimmer got hit hard with the 2s recharge. I demand my 1-s recharge Glimmer back so I can run it in RA.

Instead of insulting your very poor intelligence...oops, too late. Glimmer needs a buff because it got nerfed beyond playability, not because I want to abuse it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

It would still be the worst elite skill in the game. It's in smiting, enough said.

No it wouldn't. At least you could throw it on a monk to give it thumper protection, which everyone runs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

It's not getting abused/it's not imbalanced. Why balance something that's fine?

See my comment on Spirit's Strength.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Whoooo! Sprint and Power Attack merged into an elite? Rox0r!!!!

Yes, because it's a constant speed boost + you do +30 damage each attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

In the area is huge. Nearby range is just fine. And, fyi, Area > Nearby > Adjacent, and Adjacent is 10 feet.

Go to isle of the nameless. You might learn something. In the area is small (ward sized). Right now "You're All Alone" can be used on someone who really isn't alone. Sort of how coward works when you're running from them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

That's Earthbind keeping you KD'd for 3 seconds ^^

No, that's Wanderlust knocking me down when I get up because a bug prevents you from moving.
[skill]Wanderlust[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Again, this is the PvP forum. (Signet of return) sees no use as is, why nerf it?

Because it's broken? Maybe?