Curse

Lord Natural · Jan 02, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Make it a stance. Personally I don't think there should be any (duration) skills in GW which cannot be either interrupted or stripped. There are plenty of stance elites in the game, why should RaO be exempt? If the ultimate goal in GW is skill balance, how is it fair to have a skill which cannot be stripped/interrupted, can be kept up close to indefinitely, combines 2 essential melee stances into 1, but isn't even a stance?

The obvious solution is to just kill the pet. In fact I think a thumper actually becomes a liability if a match lasts longer than 5 minutes, as a heavily dp'ed pet makes this skill useless. This could be construed as 'balance' I suppose, but for situations where killing the pet isn't always possible (arena play, defending an altar in HA, etc.), this skill is extremely overpowered.

Seamus Finn · Jan 02, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

True, their attack speed is still quite slow because they are wielding a hammer. Being a monk myself i'd rather deal with a thumper then with an assassin or warrior. A blind thumper is as harmless as a baby, and if u kill their pet maybe rampage is still on, but the KD is eliminated. When i monk in alliance battle i always use siphon speed on thumpers, and suddenly I'm faster then the thumper. always makes me LOL.
I fully understand that GW should be properly balanced, but the amount of threads i see in the skill discussion crying out for nerfs is partially true and partially based on unwillingness to adapt imo. Let's hope the solution will be somewhere inbetween those two. Theyre even asking to nerf shield of absorption while there are so many classes being able to remove enchants without too much trouble.

Well when I'm monking in alliance battle I just use (fill in moronic skill here that would never work against a team even remotely close to competence) to deal with (fill in anything you want here, because alliance battle are for idiots so the build doesn't really matter anyhow).

SAVE THE THUMPERS PEOPLE! Why such an emphasis to keep this skill from entering the useless bin? Rangers still have viable builds in top pvp and some of them actually require some intelligence to run effectively. I'm not saying the skill is ridiculously overpowered, but why must we keep all the "Guild Wars for Dummies" skills viable?

I say make it an unprecendented 30 energy stance that ends when a pet dies or someone shouts "Get a build Noob!" in public chat.

Sir Mad · Jan 02, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Make it a stance. Personally I don't think there should be any (duration) skills in GW which cannot be either interrupted or stripped. There are plenty of stance elites in the game, why should RaO be exempt? If the ultimate goal in GW is skill balance, how is it fair to have a skill which cannot be stripped/interrupted, can be kept up close to indefinitely, combines 2 essential melee stances into 1, but isn't even a stance?

There are plenty of skills in-game that are not a stance or an enchantement or something that can be stripped / removed and I can't see why a ranger could not have at least one (erm 2, there's also troll unguent

) when half of the paragon skills for example are stackable and non removable.

Yeah, I guess the best way would to have it end when the pet died as suggested before. I think any other nerf would just completely make it useless and ruin the concept of having an elite IAS.

Franco Power · Jan 02, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

[skill]Rampage as One[/skill]....

[skill]Blinding Surge[/skill]
[skill]Spoil Victor[/skill]
[skill]Blinding Flash[/skill]
[skill]Guardian[/skill]
[skill]Reckless Haste[/skill]
[skill]Aegis[/skill]
[skill]Ineptitude[/skill]
[skill]Clumsiness[/skill]
[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill]
[skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill]

[LEETSKILLZ] >> K.I.T.E << [LEETSKILLZ]

Yes this skill is over powered and really no hope to counter it.... every time you see a thumper just /resign

JR · Jan 02, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Listing obvious counters is key.

Lord Natural · Jan 03, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Every single skill in the game has a counter, regardless of how overpowered. Searing Flames? Diversion, Backfire, Distracting Shot, Guilt.... Oh wait, a SF build went 32-5 the first day of the ladder season and reached as high as #1. How could that be, with such obvious counters...

Quote:

There are plenty of skills in-game that are not a stance or an enchantement or something that can be stripped / removed and I can't see why a ranger could not have at least one (erm 2, there's also troll unguent ) when half of the paragon skills for example are stackable and non removable.

Troll has a 3 second cast time. If an interrupter can't catch that, there's not much hope for him.

As for Paragons, though difficult, there are counters. Some skills have cast times, which allow for interrupting, and for those that don't, there are necro skills which disable/strip shouts. I'm trying to think of some other examples, but I really can't think of any other skills which meet these criteria: instant activation, extended duration, cannot be removed.

Edit: Yeah you're right, there are a few. Ritual Lord, Focused Anger, etc. Hmmm.

neoflame · Jan 03, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

You could always have 3 characters chain Blackout on your target!

JR · Jan 03, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Oh wait, a SF build went 32-5 the first day of the ladder season and reached as high as #1.

It was 32-2, if I remember correctly. I played Ele in a few of those matches, it's ridiculous.

twicky_kid · Jan 03, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It was 32-2, if I remember correctly. I played Ele in a few of those matches, it's ridiculous.

Until people adapted that is (which they did).

Moa birds barely made it to the play offs using this the entire season. Other teams moved away from it as obvious flaws were reviled by other teams.

JR this is part is not towards you:

The so called "dummy skills" will always be around. That's because they work without a lot of complex conditions to happen first. When you have a team working together you want something that is going to work all the time w/o having to rely on 2-3 of your teammates to make happen. Simple bars are usually the most effective. For a team to function every part of your team needs to have a specific job to do and find the easiest way to do it.

Making this a stance will just pave the way for d/w to replace it. Making it end when the pet dies will make an already HUGE risk to running a thumper even larger and basicly remove them any combat at VoD.

Deal with SF not the thumpers.

Clinically Proven · Jan 03, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

I was having a similar discussion with a guildy of mine yesterday on this skill and making it a stance. As it kinda relevant I thought I'd repost it here.

The basics of the discussion was why would making RaO a stance kill it off:

Here's the intro from said guildy:

Quote:

many different stances are used heavily despite wild blow. Every other ranger/warrior atack speed/move speed buff is a stance/enchant, why should RaO be excepted?

An argument that's seen a bit of play in this thread, response as follows:

The benefit of a Thumper is pressure, that pressure is in the form of frequent KD from hammer bash (primarily) and irresistable blow (secondary).

The alternative to RaO is TF, which rolls around every 10 seconds for 10 energy and has a lower boost - 25%. Reducing TF from 33% to 25% pretty much made the TF Thumper redundant as it is.

RaO is 25 energy with a 20 second recharge. At high Expertise its still a 13 energy investment.

But for the sake of illustrating my point:

For a warrior primary with 2 pips regen Wild Blow on a TF thumper will result in net energy regen of 1.66 every TF recharge to lock out the TF and render the thumper useless. A very heavy price as it basically excludes the warrior from using further energy based skills and the 10 second recharge means you have to camp the Thumper get the TF on recharge.

Maths for those who care: 1 pip regen is 1 energy every 3 seconds ; 10 (TF recharge) /1.5 (2 pips) = 6.66.

6.66 - 5 = 1.66 energy gainied every 10 seconds.

That is, that would be a net zero: You can lock out the thumper but you have to lock out your own warrior to do so.

Thus, there's no point using Wild Blow on a TF Thumper, even though TF is a stance.

However:

If RaO was a stance a warrior has 8.33 energy regen for every RaO recharge and the longer recharge means you don't have to camp the Thumper.

Thus, if RaO was a stance you can effectively lock out the Thumper's speed boost and attack boost (and hence pressure/KD) with Wild Blow and still have a viable warrior frontliner.

Maths: 20 (RaO recharge) /1.5 (2 pips) = 13.33

13.33 - 5 = 8.66 energy gainied every 20 seconds.

Using a Paragon with Wild Throw, that is, not requiring 'time to target allowance' and with better energy management that restricts a warrior, means you could lock out a TF Thumper, if RaO was a stance you could easily knock that out too.

..and that is why making RaO a stance kills it off.

tomcruisejr · Jan 03, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Listing obvious counters is key.

[skill]signet of humility[/skill]

bungusmaximus · Jan 03, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Well when I'm monking in alliance battle I just use (fill in moronic skill here that would never work against a team even remotely close to competence) to deal with (fill in anything you want here, because alliance battle are for idiots so the build doesn't really matter anyhow).

SAVE THE THUMPERS PEOPLE! Why such an emphasis to keep this skill from entering the useless bin? Rangers still have viable builds in top pvp and some of them actually require some intelligence to run effectively. I'm not saying the skill is ridiculously overpowered, but why must we keep all the "Guild Wars for Dummies" skills viable?

I say make it an unprecendented 30 energy stance that ends when a pet dies or someone shouts "Get a build Noob!" in public chat.

Whahahahaha, don't hold me for an idiot, it was just an example. If it works for me it should be perfectly fine. I just wanted to point out that thumpers aren't overly dangerous to me.

Patrograd · Jan 03, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Listing obvious counters is key.

Listing counters that dont work against thumpers, like Guardian and Aegis is even more key imo. :-)

Patrograd · Jan 03, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It was 32-2, if I remember correctly. I played Ele in a few of those matches, it's ridiculous.

I played against [izzy] and this build on Monday night and a couple of things surprised me,

Firstly, the build is very weak defensively, we rolled them from the stand inside 2 minutes.

Secondly, the build savagely punishes even relatively minor errors, wiping us when we pushed into their base just a little too hard and a little too early costing us the game before 5 minutes were on the clock.

Xenex Xclame · Jan 03, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Make it a stance. Personally I don't think there should be any (duration) skills in GW which cannot be either interrupted or stripped. There are plenty of stance elites in the game, why should RaO be exempt?

Defy Pain ,Endure Pain,Warrior's Cunning,Deadly Riposte,Riposte,Protector's Defense.

By your definition these skills dont exist.
Now for what everyone else sees,these skills have a duration and can not be removed, RaO is not the only one.
these are only the warrior ones, i can post more but , you can also look them up.

Seamus Finn · Jan 03, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Until people adapted that is (which they did).

Moa birds barely made it to the play offs using this the entire season. Other teams moved away from it as obvious flaws were reviled by other teams.

Sorry but this quote is too funny. If I'm reading it correctly, this is statement is made in order to refute the strength of a searing/thumps/cspacebarspamathon ftw build. But did you read what you typed? A guild ran this "heavily flawed" build the ENTIRE SEASON and finished in the top 32.

At the risk of stating the obvious, your statement actually proves the contrary.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 03, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Sorry but this quote is too funny. If I'm reading it correctly, this is statement is made in order to refute the strength of a searing/thumps/cspacebarspamathon ftw build. But did you read what you typed? A guild ran this "heavily flawed" build the ENTIRE SEASON and finished in the top 32.

At the risk of stating the obvious, your statement actually proves the contrary.

Weak teams making playoffs and high ranks with degenerate gimmicks is nothing new - the same thing has happened in every season Guild Wars has ever had. It's the nature of the ladder that one-dimensional build-based offenses allow bad teams to dominate, and it doesn't mean that the build is necessarily overpowered. More often, it means the build is too easy to run and actively discourages interesting or tactical play.

Zoo X · Jan 03, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

there was a problem with this skill at the time you could use it even without pet, as the skill works now, and keeping in mind pets do gain DP, i fail to see why RaO should deserve a nerft
thumpers were born for pressure not for giggle

taxed · Jan 03, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Back to Rage Against One for a second...
What if the skill was nerfed with relation to Adrenaline, rather than Energy? Keep the skill viable for Beast Master Rangers, and kill it for thumpers.

Maybe something like "you cannot gain Adrenaline while under the effects of RaO" or only gain 1/2 adrenaline....

Sir Mad · Jan 03, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Troll has a 3 second cast time. If an interrupter can't catch that, there's not much hope for him.

I can't believe you didn't catch the irony