Curse

Randomway Ftw · Jan 11, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

In 8v8 you had a decent chance to counter most fotms, in 6v6 you lack the utility, and you will lose because you face a certain build, therefore build wars.

The question to people who want to change altar mechanics is, do you want to make altar mechanics better or do you want to make altars easy to cap? Because many of these suggestions seem like it's the latter. You think you can cap and win more with a different mechanic.

Sir Vengence VI · Jan 11, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Hope they dont screw it up more

Mental Leteci · Jan 11, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

Guess you don't observe HA much. What's more popular atm ? Monks or N/Mo(Rt). Take a wild guess.

Actually, monks lately.

axe · Jan 11, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Actually, monks lately.

LOL! That took me a minute to get the joke. So to add to it, you thing N/Mo are bad now, you should have seen them in 8v8.

Mental Leteci · Jan 11, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

LOL! That took me a minute to get the joke. So to add to it, you thing N/Mo are bad now, you should have seen them in 8v8.

I'm serious. People are starting realize that N/Mo don't work that great. 1st of all they can't hold that good. Energy isn't the only things that's needed for healing. Would you prefer one heal with 5 energy to heal for almost the same amount as the one for 10 energy, but you need to actually have skill and know how to use channeling or would you actually go with the mass energy solution so you can spam 10 energy heals?
I would also like to add that there is many unskilled players here (including you, not saying that you don't know how to play, but that you're not experienced enough). If you think that 8v8 would make N/Mo healers more powerful you're wrong. What gives them energy? Spirits. Go figure. It's not just them who get extra 2 slots, you're playing the same game. Everything can be countered, but not in 6v6. In 6v6 you gotta decide against which build you're gonna lose because you can't counter them all.

I really don't understand this: look how it's overpowered in 6v6, imagine it in 8v8. No one actually knows how it would work in 8v8, really. If you would like to whine about builds in 8v8 you should whine about this:
3 W/R with fear me and drunken blow
1 oath shot ranger
1 smoke trapper
2 paragons
1 apostasy necro

But yet, the thing I just wrote here can be countered. It's hard of course cause apostasy has the range over the whole map, but it's still possible.

Y O U Lo Se · Jan 11, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I really don't understand this: look how it's overpowered in 6v6, imagine it in 8v8. No one actually knows how it would work in 8v8, really. If you would like to whine about builds in 8v8 you should whine about this:
3 W/R with fear me and drunken blow
1 oath shot ranger
1 smoke trapper
2 paragons
1 apostasy necro

But yet, the thing I just wrote here can be countered. It's hard of course cause apostasy has the range over the whole map, but it's still possible.

How would that be overpowered? Weak offense and weak defense. 2 paragons can hold a team pretty well in 6v6 but in 8v8 2 paragons wouldn't be enough. Only some lucky dazes with smoke trap could cause a wipe.

Alleji · Jan 11, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

If you would like to whine about builds in 8v8 you should whine about this:
3 W/R with fear me and drunken blow
1 oath shot ranger
1 smoke trapper
2 paragons
1 apostasy necro

Sounds pretty scary. Nerf OoA plx.

axe · Jan 11, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

If you think that 8v8 would make N/Mo healers more powerful you're wrong.

LOL sorry we were on totally different wavelengths, I thought you were making a joke referring to the Sig Monk spike (by saying "actually there are more monks than N/Mos) So I in turn was reffering to N/Mo blood spikers back in 8v8.

Sorry I totally thought you were making a joke. My bad.

And yes in reality I dont see as many N/Mo healers, they are however fairly common. And in 8v8 the return of N/Mos wont be as healers.

Also I want 8v8 back, so I wasnt trying to say this or that will be overpowered, I actually was making a joke :P

crucifix · Jan 11, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I play spiritway almostevery night, and hold with it almost every night also. i would never think of using a monk to heal in that party, it just wouldnt be as efficient as a n/mo.

oh and a wep of rememdy rit= pwnage.

my point is that in these certain builds, non monks work better. lets just hope that we revert to 8v8.

Legendary Shiz · Jan 11, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I think we all obviously hope it changes back to 8v8, but if they would have at least put some effort into making 6v6 a fun playing atmosphere I believe it could have been at least semi-succesful. Three quarter of why it's hated so much now is because certain skills are so imbalanced that they dominate 6v6 so much.

I'll continue to HA reguardless of the party size, but like everybody 8v8 would be a nice change up/back.

elektra_lucia · Jan 12, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

I play spiritway almostevery night, and hold with it almost every night also. i would never think of using a monk to heal in that party, it just wouldnt be as efficient as a n/mo.

oh and a wep of rememdy rit= pwnage.

my point is that in these certain builds, non monks work better. lets just hope that we revert to 8v8.

Weapon of remedy necro rit = boring. Your point is mute. The build is made to suit the necros; therefore, it sacrifices on other things.

Devina Fava · Jan 12, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

Three quarter of why it's hated so much now is because certain skills are so imbalanced that they dominate 6v6 so much.

Indeed. The whole problem with 6v6 is that you don't have enough utility, as many other people have said. Right from the offset I was saying that we went from eight professions and eight a team to ten professions and six a team, more or less. With less personnel you had to counter a greater variety of threats, it was always going to be a bit much of an ask. It's already a strain on a two monk back line kitted out with moderate condition removal to cope with a condition heavy team, all other things being equal. Get better protection against that, and you sacrifice your hex control. Come up against a hex heavy team, and... You almost want RC and Divert in the team, but then you need healing too...

Furthermore, with more skills and less personnel, you are more likely, as we are seeing, to encounter the situation whereby certain skills become harder to control. With strengths in numbers the imbalances even out better, with less people in the team any variance is more likely to widen the difference.

tomcruisejr · Jan 12, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devina Fava

Indeed. The whole problem with 6v6 is that you don't have enough utility, as many other people have said.

i still don't get the "not enough utility argument". say if you add 2 players with the utility that you need and the other team added complete counter to your utilities, then it's back to the same ballgame again.

i still think you need that 2 players for the extra damage. or maybe for the extra defense (for holding?)

Bastian · Jan 12, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

i still don't get the "not enough utility argument". say if you add 2 players with the utility that you need and the other team added complete counter to your utilities, then it's back to the same ballgame again.

i still think you need that 2 players for the extra damage. or maybe for the extra defense (for holding?)

Well, since IWAY only ever brought maybe 1 utility character, I can understand why you may not understand this concept. (Not really trying to rag on you, but on FoTM's in general - not to mention a bit of friendly humor)

IMO - for a balanced group - your utility characters are the ones that bring specific skills to help counter the current metagame and FoTM's. This way, the skill of a team is more of an impact of how far they get in HA as opposed to the build they are running and are up against.

The reason why 2 more character slots for utilty > 2 more character slots for FoTM builds is because FoTM's usually revolve around one or two types of game mechanics. Therefore, they are dedicated to bringing 2 more characters that usually fit into those mechanics. Its the mechanics of the build that are being countered through the use of the utulity slots - not just individuals. Therefore, utility characters in 8v8 make skill > build.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 12, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

I want the mods to keep his posts up, simply so that Anet can see what incompetant retards they are listening to.

Sorry Mendes, I had to delete his flamebait BS posts. We have to keep the discussion on topic, and free of useless trolling. Also, he's banned. We wont tolerate trolls in gladiators arena section. Let that be warning for others, and lets get back on topic.

Lord Mendes · Jan 12, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Sorry Mendes, I had to delete his flamebait BS posts. We have to keep the discussion on topic, and free of useless trolling.

"Omg! Pro 8v8 moderating!!"
<3

Y O U Lo Se · Jan 12, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Lol, everyone thought it was Anets fault that HA was - but I just found the real reason:

Quote:

In the past, the priests spent a great deal of time observing potential problems and shortcomings of Heroes' Ascent before acting,

Say's the Scribe, so it must be true.

tomcruisejr · Jan 12, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

Well, since IWAY only ever brought maybe 1 utility character, I can understand why you may not understand this concept. (Not really trying to rag on you, but on FoTM's in general - not to mention a bit of friendly humor)

IMO - for a balanced group - your utility characters are the ones that bring specific skills to help counter the current metagame and FoTM's. This way, the skill of a team is more of an impact of how far they get in HA as opposed to the build they are running and are up against.

The reason why 2 more character slots for utilty > 2 more character slots for FoTM builds is because FoTM's usually revolve around one or two types of game mechanics. Therefore, they are dedicated to bringing 2 more characters that usually fit into those mechanics. Its the mechanics of the build that are being countered through the use of the utulity slots - not just individuals. Therefore, utility characters in 8v8 make skill > build.

so do you think that giving a team build enough utility to counter almost all the build makes it an overpowered build? im wondering.

Y O U Lo Se · Jan 12, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

so do you think that giving a team build enough utility to counter almost all the build makes it an overpowered build? im wondering.

I think you don't understand what he says?

He's saying that utility characters will make skill > build instead of rock paper scissors as it is now...

Bastian · Jan 12, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

so do you think that giving a team build enough utility to counter almost all the build makes it an overpowered build? im wondering.

Not necessarily. However, a good team (skill wise) running a balanced build (with some thought as to the metagame) is almost always going to be overpowered compared to the overpowered FoTM's if the skills are balanced. The reason for this is simple. Balanced builds draw upon many different skill uses and game mechanics. Whereas, FoTM's generally load up on one type of game mechanic. For example - IWAY is a melee heavy pressure build. It used to rely on high dmg through order of pain (or apostacy or both) - eviscerate, eoe, frozen soil, and a trapper for keeping the orders safe or using the aoe dmg from traps to keep people out of wards. If you knew this - you knew how to counter it, and you cuold effectively beat Iway the same way. Bloodspike relies on spirits for energy and lifestealing damage to go through prot skills. Countering bspike is not about infusing (although maybe a little), its about tactics, interrupts, and shutting down the necros or more importantly the caller. These types of skills load up on one type of game mechanic to make them extremely overpowered - especially for newer teams. Also, it makes them easy to run for people trying to get into HA. (And I would also say a good building block for those people trying to get into HA - as long as they don't rely on one build for r0 to r9+, but for them to learn how to play those builds so hey understand what shuts those builds down).

However, a balanced build - what does it rely on? Skill. There is nothing overpowered as far as game mechanics in a balanced build - that is why it is balanced. It may run a sort of adrenaline spike or pressure - or some type of offense. But there are many outlets for it to be both a defensive and offensive threat. As well as shutting down the game mechanics for other groups. That is why if the skills are balanced in the game - a good balanced team has a very good chance vs. anyone.

I hope this makes sense and answers the question.