Curse

Bread Fan · Jan 09, 2007, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Nadia how can you not comprehend that 8v8 is so much more creative and challenging? I for one enjoyed 8v8 cause it was actually balanced as opposed to how HA is now. Playing in a guild group or a decent pug it felt so much more rewarding with a balance build cause each person had their task and everyone would gel. After a loss people would comment what perhaps went wrong and make corrections to the build. Now it's the all about gimmicks and it has NEVER been this bad. Another thing is I can't see why people are whining about rank discrimination there are tons of unranked groups looking for peeps in id1.

Epic Monkey Battle · Jan 09, 2007, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I only started to get into HA at the tail end of 8v8, probably no more than a month before the double fame weekend that lead to 6v6. I agree with the people saying that in 8v8 you can incorporate more utility. However, I do see where Nadia is coming from by asking why can't 6v6 work with some changes.

I think a lot of the people that want 8v8 back are the ones that played 8v8 for many months and got used to it, which is totally fair and understandable. But all Nadia is trying to say is, don't throw away 6v6 before it has a chance to be fixed by anet. If it totally sucks after the test weekend, then I'm all for reverting back to 8v8.

Bread Fan · Jan 09, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Well to be honest. I think it's bullshit that I have put in many months, kicking back enjoying a game and for a company to COMPLETELY change it so they can attract new players and sell more product yet shunning out the people that have supported it in the beginning. Crazy way to run a business.

Double fame 6v6 weekend ~ clever

The Silver Star · Jan 09, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Well frankly, trying to "fix" Heroes Ascent now is to late. People have left not to come back. However 2 days for testing? thats crap we know that 2 days of something doesnt work because let me think... emm... its 2 days? yep jsut 2 days to play and decided whether its good or bad so most likely the only feedback they will get will be A+++. And not only that but its on a weekend.... i dont know about you but on a weekend there is usually something ebtter to do than play GW. And frankly 6v6 doesnt work its not what skills were balanced and designed around 8v8 was good but changing anything in HA now feels more like ebating a dead horse.

Dodo The Extinct · Jan 09, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Hey, I`d rather have 2 days of testing than continue playing HA the way it is.......I`m just glad A-net is doing something.

God Apprentice · Jan 09, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Gaile, I was wondering what prompted you all to decide to change HA from 8 to 6 in the first place. Everyone has ideas etc, but it would be nice to get an answer from you

leguma · Jan 09, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Also leguma, I wasn't claiming that builds don't have backlines and I realize that the term "monk" is usually used for simplicity's sake. You happened to say something like "every HA build will require a 2 monk backline"--you can't seriously expect someone not to say something about that. A lot of the fotms out there right now don't have them. Paraway doesn't have one, Fearway doesn't have one (apparently) and neither does ele ball. Ele ball comes close since its members function in both offensive and defensive capacities, but that doesn't make them any more "backline" than, say, a warder with Heal Party.

Oh yes, I can so see how having a build with no monk but 5 copies of heal area, 5 copies of healing ring and a couple of seeds is so very different to having a build with 2 monks each with 8 skills dedicated to healing and prot. I can also see how if the healing came in the form of rit spells or spirits, or if the prot came in the form of rit spells or spirits or paragon shouts or whatever it would not be the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

And no, our build was 5 ele spikers with no self prot/dmg reduction (but they did have Aura of Restoration) and a kickass prot/healer (me). Altar maps were dealt with by allowing the other teams to write us off (since we only had one monk and no /Mo Ele secondaries) and capping as late as possible. We capped at 1:10 on courtyard and held off Yuna's Ele and another (apparently) ranked team that I admittedly did not recognize. We didn't play any relic runs. I felt reasonably comfortable as the only monk and would be more than happy to do it again.

I can totally see how that build is viable because the other teams undestimate you and ignore you, and I am quite sure that a team with 5 W/Mo would acomplish the same thing. However, the fact of the matter is that that build would have tremendous problems on relic runs, holding the hall and in facing just about any other team that does not simply look and see 1 monk and decide that you can be ignored.

You can cut it any which way you like, but the vast majority builds that are capable of playing and winning each and every HA map, and holding the Hall for a reasonable ammount of time will need two monks. Regardless of the fact that they are primary monks, necro monks, necro ritualists, ritualists or whatever; regardless of whether the healing and prot skills are cenralized on one person or spread out across the entire party, you will need those 2x8 skill slot for protting and healing your party and the Ghostly Hero.
You can pick at straws all day but it makes no difference whether they are 16 or 15 or 17 slots, it makes no difference if you have more healing or more prot, and it makes no difference wether it is possible to win against teams that simply give you the win by making stupid mistakes, regardless of how many monks you have in your party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

And if you meant to say "the team that playes better" why didn't you say that to begin with? Saying "The better team wins 1v1" is kind of ambiguous.

I'm sorry for thinking that the better team is naturally the team that plays the best. I should have known that it is the team with the most fame/rating/FoW armors. I know better now.

luilui · Jan 09, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

I don't understand why do we need a reason to go 6v6 or 8v8. I look at it like making dinner for ppl, fish or beef, if more ppl like fish then i'll cook fish, if more ppl like beef then i'll cook beef, do they really have to prove fish is healthier?

To me the difference between 6v6 and 8v8 is the return of spike, which i don't mind as long as not too many. (Although at the moment i fear of 8 men monk spike..... 6 X 135 + 2 utility characters.)

Ppl keep talking about fotm, but we all know nothing anyone can do about that. Creating a decent working build requires too much effort, patient for an average tomber. On top of that creativity has never been rewarded in GW. You made a build if it doesnt work you wasted your time and effort and ppl make fame over you; if it works one week later ppl copy it and make fame over you (not in the sense of beating you but using your build); if it works great you'll be famous and get ganked. So yea why not fotm?

Instead of complaining about balance and gimmicks and such, i rather complain about why creativity is not rewarded. Observer mode totally rip off creative ppl (although it's a great thing). Frequent map/victory condition change is impossible. My suggestion in the other post is closest to reward creativity. I'll repeat it here.

Every one or two weeks, one or two RANDOM elite skills will be chosen and if your team is using the chosen skill(s) you'll get double(or more) fame. The time period should be long enough for ppl to test build and benefit if they made anything successful, but not so long for everyone to copy; the number of required elite skill should not be too many so it becomes too much of a restriction; the bonus reward should be enough to at least cover what you lost in the testing period. So the idea is if you want to be creative you'll have the chance to be rewarded, if you don't want you can still get what you are having now. If WoH is chosen then everyone can be happy, if it's grenth's balance then you'll have to be good. It's not a very complicated idea for Anet to implement, and it takes no effort to pick an random elite skill.

Cass · Jan 09, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

Every one or two weeks, one or two RANDOM elite skills will be chosen and if your team is using the chosen skill(s) you'll get double(or more) fame. The time period should be long enough for ppl to test build and benefit if they made anything successful, but not so long for everyone to copy; the number of required elite skill should not be too many so it becomes too much of a restriction; the bonus reward should be enough to at least cover what you lost in the testing period. So the idea is if you want to be creative you'll have the chance to be rewarded, if you don't want you can still get what you are having now. If WoH is chosen then everyone can be happy, if it's grenth's balance then you'll have to be good. It's not a very complicated idea for Anet to implement, and it takes no effort to pick an random elite skill.

Hehe. Nice idea with an excellent motivation! I'm sure it will be abused to no end, as most everything is, but I'd support something crazy like that.

Nadia Roark · Jan 09, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

Nadia how can you not comprehend that 8v8 is so much more creative and challenging?

I think you're mistaking me for a diehard pro 6v6er, which isn't exactly the case. I don't particularly care to rehash my opinion again but I can tell from this sentence alone that you haven't bothered to pay attention to it even once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

I for one enjoyed 8v8 cause it was actually balanced as opposed to how HA is now. Playing in a guild group or a decent pug it felt so much more rewarding with a balance build cause each person had their task and everyone would gel. After a loss people would comment what perhaps went wrong and make corrections to the build. Now it's the all about gimmicks and it has NEVER been this bad. Another thing is I can't see why people are whining about rank discrimination there are tons of unranked groups looking for peeps in id1.

It's nice to see that you've finally decided to join the discussion in a meaningful way. I tend to agree with you re: 8v8 balance versus current balance but I don't think the 6-man format necessarily damns HA as being inherently broken. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to claim that it's "never" been this bad, since old school spirit spam was probably the low point of tombs, when you could lay down a forest of fertile seasons, go afk, and hold all night.

The rank discrimination brings up an interesting point, and I think it was this attitude ANet was reacting to when they made all the changes that so many of us are complaining about. I find it hard to believe that the lack of utility in 6-man builds failed to occur to them, and as a result I wouldn't be surprised if the "Build Wars" state of HA wasn't somewhat intentional.

As I can now see leguma has evidently ceased taking part in this dialog in any serious sort of way I'll take my leave for now, but I'll be more than happy to resume discussion with him should he choose to maintain some modicum of civility. If you don't agree with me that's all well and good, but this sarcastic nonsense isn't helping anyone.

xOdin · Jan 09, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Something needs to happen soon...

My team beats almost every map and manages to still get shitty fame runs... why?

Because no one is playing and i always get skipped to halls, even though i manage about 6 hall wins each night, i can never seem to get a noticably good fame run.. 2 fame or 4 fame hall wins are not the kind of fame i want to be getting.

Anet needs to attract more people to heros ascent, I even had a 1v1 in halls... wtf.

More maps + more players = good fame & happy HAers

The Mighty Odin

Franco Power · Jan 09, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Odin thats a lot depending on which hours you play aswel, I just went on a run, no skips, lost in courtyard (>.> stupid jagged bones), if i play in about 5 hours, i ll probably be skipping broken tower and uw.

Riotgear · Jan 09, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I find it hard to believe that the lack of utility in 6-man builds failed to occur to them, and as a result I wouldn't be surprised if the "Build Wars" state of HA wasn't somewhat intentional.

Considering that TA managed to be quite balanced with three non-monk characters, it probably didn't seem infeasible to have four.

Build Wars is more an artifact of skill or mechanic imbalance than anything, a result of when things get too strong to keep under control with general counters. I'll blame the Nightfall power creep for that far sooner than I'll blame the conversion to 6v6.

TB_ · Jan 09, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

The big question is will these changes add anything useful, ya know like an option to skip the cutscenes weve seen thousands of times? Or how about updating the maps so they dont look like they were made for Quake 2? Or perhaps a party window which isnt in the way on smaller screens? Or an inteligent system to prevent people flooding the HA with the same builds? Or a new favor system so people who are forced to play off peak can actualy benefit? Or sending all PvP players to an int dist by default so no matter what time of day it is the dists are full? Ya know... useful things... like new maps, but I know we wont get them.

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 09, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TB_

The big question is will these changes add anything useful, ya know like an option to skip the cutscenes weve seen thousands of times? Or how about updating the maps so they dont look like they were made for Quake 2? Or perhaps a party window which isnt in the way on smaller screens? Or an inteligent system to prevent people flooding the HA with the same builds? Or a new favor system so people who are forced to play off peak can actualy benefit? Or sending all PvP players to an int dist by default so no matter what time of day it is the dists are full? Ya know... useful things... like new maps, but I know we wont get them.

Yeah, a good chunk of the HA community leaving GW sure isn't as important as skipping cutscenes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Build Wars is more an artifact of skill or mechanic imbalance than anything, a result of when things get too strong to keep under control with general counters. I'll blame the Nightfall power creep for that far sooner than I'll blame the conversion to 6v6.

I'll blame 6v6 before Nightfall. I've already explained why somewhat thoroughly, I'm not repeating it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Gaile, I was wondering what prompted you all to decide to change HA from 8 to 6 in the first place. Everyone has ideas etc, but it would be nice to get an answer from you

It'd be nice, but we won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

I for one enjoyed 8v8 cause it was actually balanced as opposed to how HA is now. Playing in a guild group or a decent pug it felt so much more rewarding with a balance build cause each person had their task and everyone would gel. After a loss people would comment what perhaps went wrong and make corrections to the build. Now it's the all about gimmicks and it has NEVER been this bad. Another thing is I can't see why people are whining about rank discrimination there are tons of unranked groups looking for peeps in id1.

Exactly what I've been trying to say. Balanced was rewarding. Now there's absolutely NO point to run balanced. 6v6 just doesn't give balanced enough room. The first spirit spam way back in the day was pretty bad, but I'd agree, not as bad as this.

Riotgear · Jan 09, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

I'm not repeating it.
...
Exactly what I've been trying to say. Balanced was rewarding. Now there's absolutely NO point to run balanced. 6v6 just doesn't give balanced enough room. The first spirit spam way back in the day was pretty bad, but I'd agree, not as bad as this.

Kind of funny that you say you're not repeating it, then repeat it later in your own post.

Like I said, complaints about zergway, spirit spam, etc. are as much issues of scaling and mechanics as they are player count. A solution on the other side of the problem would be to make gimmick builds weaker or more counterable. Ideally, if a build is based too much around one concept, they SHOULD be significantly lacking in some other area that can be exploited to beat them. The fact that this is not the case is a problem in itself.

Things like requiring Song of Concentration are an example of problems caused by mechanics.

Bread Fan · Jan 09, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

There is nothing wrong with song of concentration. In 8v8 you could bring a main interrupter as well as a shock war etc and if the secondary interrupter couldn't interrupt song there is something definetly wrong and you deserve to lose.

Misread your post but just another example why 8v8 is better. People bringing song in 6v6 and it is hard to have to interrupt that as well as ghost.

Riotgear · Jan 09, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Knockdowns can be stopped by Ward of Stability. I didn't say Song of Concentration was a problem, I said that the fact that it's seen as required at the moment is a symptom of a problem. A problem like, for example, the altar capping mechanics sucking.

For the record, I do think it needs to go back to 8v8, as 6v6 allows the sort of lop-sided builds you can't get in 4v4 without the strong counters to gimmicky crap that 8v8 can, and that reverting would ultimately be the simplest solution. However, I believe 6v6 is a viable matchup, provided the afforementioned lopsided builds lose their punch.

Vital · Jan 09, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Is "Rank Discrimination" really that big of a deal? You do realize that many lower ranked people play with r6-9+ groups because they have shown their skill through being in a PvP guild or networking with people in the PvP community. Is there any reason to complain that a group forming a r9+ group won't take an unkown pug that is r5?

The "rank dosent show talent or skill" rant is very true, and I can tell you it goes both ways. There are many r9+ people out there that others would never let into a group because most of the community know they simply suck, or rage, or for other numerous reasons.

I think people need to get creative when trying to break into HA or GvG. Find a decent guild, network with the higher ranked guilds and people, keep a positive attitude and be dependable.

If someone says, "omgz bambi get teh F out", well don't play with such idiots. Form a very competant rank "bambi or wolf or no emote" team and kick their ass. But you would have to be very patient, and most people lack that virtue.

Thanks

Thom · Jan 09, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Two things:
-HA was dying long before 6v6. There were significant amounts of rage quitting as a result of going to 6v6, but the answer isn't to go back to 8v8. 8v8 was dominated my unstoppable holding builds, which in my mind wasn't a great balance either.

-The problem with HA is the objectives. You have several 0 and 1 control point maps and maps which revolve around the mechanics of non-kiting NPCs. Zero and one control point maps mean you are forced into straight up 8v8 battles which inevidably turn into spike trades if the teams are at all good. In 6v6, it is easier to pull a weird gimmick to gain advantage, "build wars". The beauty of GvG is that you can realize that you have 3+ control points, so if a team is built for 8v8 you can simply refuse to fight 8v8 until 25 minutes into the match. Tactics in the HA maps simply aren't that good because the objectives aren't interesting. Every pvp map created after Prophecies has showed more sophistication than all of the Tombs maps save the relic run.