Curse

God Apprentice · Jan 08, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

I will be looking forward to whatever fresh changes to HA there is that weekend. Hopefully this will lead to better things

elektra_lucia · Jan 08, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

You guys need to stop being so personal. For many the new skills and ability to change PVP characters easier, was a great update.

"Reconnects - Useless unless you can actually connect to the game."

Well there was me thinking you could connect with modem unplugged. Now I know what I've been doing wrong for the last 19 months XD. j/p.

Almighty Zi · Jan 08, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Who really cares if 6v6 HA can work, that's not the point. Many people don't want it to be 6v6, if it changed to work better for 6v6 it would not be HA anymore it would be a different arena with a HA sticker slapped on it. We don't want that we want HA back.

This makes no sense. If 6 v 6 HA can be made to work and give us all a decent balanced challenge which is better that its previous incarnation of 8 v 8 then why would anyone want the old HA back?

Decelo · Jan 08, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almighty Zi

This makes no sense. If 6 v 6 HA can be made to work and give us all a decent balanced challenge which is better that its previous incarnation of 8 v 8 then why would anyone want the old HA back?

Is it me or am I the only one who thinks there was a better atmosphere on vent/ts with 8 players and not 6?

Kabale · Jan 08, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Is it me or am I the only one who thinks there was a better atmosphere on vent/ts with 8 players and not 6?

I think it's more likely that with being forced to play with less players, you undoubtedly lost some personalities that may have made the atmosphere more enjoyable, not necessarily the ones who were no longer able to play, but also others who lost the will to play.

Saphatorael · Jan 08, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

There's been enough arguments against my original statements that I've changed my mind, and actually would have no problem with a return to 8v8.

But keep in mind... it's not that most of the people on these forums want 8v8 back, that everybody wants it (Base Rate Fallacy).

I'm still fond of my own idea of having another 'fun weekend', or maybe even longer, to check out how NF would've affected HA. No double fame though, as it will make some people more enthousistic about the entire thing than it would normally be (same thing which happened to 6v6 HA. The majority liked the event alot because of the double fame)

Nadia Roark · Jan 08, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

If would be great if you can tell us/ME why it's so counterproductive, since it's not just one person saying "why don't you bring 8v8 back because we're screaming for it" but many. I think it's pretty logical that if you made this game for these people then you should give them what they want. Maybe the crying/moaning level of this forum will go down if you inspire us.

Yes; ANet will be interested in keeping us happy but that doesn't mean that the loudest, crankiest portion of the population can wrap them around their little finger. On my site, when people clamor for game changes we listen to them if they can provide us will detailed reasons as to why their course of action would be the funnest, the most balanced, or most accessible. I'm not saying it hasn't been done here--I've seen a few pretty good cases--but some people (*cough*Alleji!*cough*) are being vague at best and insulting at worst.

As a moderator somewhere else I think I can safely say that players who complain "Do x or I leave the game" are invariably ignored not because we don't want to help them, but because we can't make everyone happy and they're not really helping us by threatening to leave. Furthermore, it puts us in a position where the players may in the future expect us to cave instantly to their requests.

There is a "political" side to forum/game moderation and it shouldn't be overlooked in situations like this. If the devs caved tomorrow and brought 8v8 back (presumably with little or no testing since I dont know if it's being looked into at this point or not) the sentiment would quickly develop that if we whine enough they'll leap into the fray and save us from whatever it is that we don't like. First it's 8v8 petitions; next thing we know it's like another monk strike in THK, or we have a coalition of several dozen players who promise to burn their copies of Guild Wars if they don't get better drops. No matter how justified you think it is, I guarantee GMs/Admins roll their eyes mightily when we stay stuff like "do it or I leave."

Let them do this weekend event thingie and see how it pans out. ANet will make their changes at their own pace. Pressuring them here or making names like "Gaile Hates HA" or "Izzy Fails At Skill Balance" accomplishes nothing, and reveals the complainer for the whiny, demanding git that he is. If 6v6 still sucks after the 19th that's fine--I'm sure ANet will be more than happy to listen if you come back here and explain why civilly.

Messner · Jan 08, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

I think it's more likely that with being forced to play with less players, you undoubtedly lost some personalities that may have made the atmosphere more enjoyable, not necessarily the ones who were no longer able to play, but also others who lost the will to play.

R.I.P. David

Earendil · Jan 08, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

If would be great if you can tell us/ME why it's so counterproductive, since it's not just one person saying "why don't you bring 8v8 back because we're screaming for it" but many. I think it's pretty logical that if you made this game for these people then you should give them what they want. Maybe the crying/moaning level of this forum will go down if you inspire us.

It's a basic technique in child raising. If my 5 years old girl throws a tantrum in a WalMart screaming, asking me to buy her a toy, it is strictly forbidden to me to buy her the toy to calm her, though her demand might be reasonable otherwise. I will deny the reward to her behavior so that eventually she learns that this kind of behavior does not bring rewards.

Protest postings in trade channel in HA, "bring 8v8 or I quit" positions and flaming posts/threads, all belong to the same category. Instead of raising the chances of 8v8 being brought back, it diminishes them.

It is safe to say that Anet knows by now what guru posters want. The decision of 6 v 8 though is not related only to what experienced HAers want - there are other issues there - and those were metioned by Gaile and many posters, most important being "to bring new people into HA". I saw no constructive suggestion from experienced HAers on how to encourage new people into HA - in fact any idea towards this goal is being shot down systematically: "noobs suck", "go learn", "build f lists", "we had it harder", "you're an lazy a**".

You cannot negotiate something with someone that completely refuses your point of view. Anet cannot consider you legitimate partners of discussion as long as you refuse to acknowledge there are issues more complex to HA than "fun for the R9s" and "bring back 8v8 or I move to WoW".

axe · Jan 08, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

It's a basic technique in child raising. If my 5 years old girl throws a tantrum in a WalMart screaming, asking me to buy her a toy, it is strictly forbidden to me to buy her the toy to calm her, though her demand might be reasonable otherwise. I will deny the reward to her behavior so that eventually she learns that this kind of behavior does not bring rewards.

Protest postings in trade channel in HA, "bring 8v8 or I quit" positions and flaming posts/threads, all belong to the same category. Instead of raising the chances of 8v8 being brought back, it diminishes them.

It is safe to say that Anet knows by now what guru posters want. The decision of 6 v 8 though is not related only to what experienced HAers want - there are other issues there - and those were metioned by Gaile and many posters, most important being "to bring new people into HA". I saw no constructive suggestion from experienced HAers on how to encourage new people into HA - in fact any idea towards this goal is being shot down systematically: "noobs suck", "go learn", "build f lists", "we had it harder", "you're an lazy a**".

You cannot negotiate something with someone that completely refuses your point of view. Anet cannot consider you legitimate partners of discussion as long as you refuse to acknowledge there are issues more complex to HA than "fun for the R9s" and "bring back 8v8 or I move to WoW".

Nice post and I agree 90% of it. However protest is a good form of persuasion as well, and it is used every day in the real world as well. But I am agreeing that we need to be more open minded about HA and "share" it with our fellow gamers.

Also there were some good suggestions in an older thread on Heroes ascent one of which was an LFG system which was implemented by Anet (probably had nothing to do with the thread I am referring to, but never the less) Anyways most of the suggestions just got buried in multiple pages of garbage and I dont know if anything constructive in that thread was easily extracted by anyone interested in the subject. Still I wanted to quote your post because it is very much how I am feeling about the current situation as well.

JR · Jan 08, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

It's a basic technique in child raising. If my 5 years old girl throws a tantrum in a WalMart screaming, asking me to buy her a toy, it is strictly forbidden to me to buy her the toy to calm her, though her demand might be reasonable otherwise. I will deny the reward to her behavior so that eventually she learns that this kind of behavior does not bring rewards.

Protest postings in trade channel in HA, "bring 8v8 or I quit" positions and flaming posts/threads, all belong to the same category. Instead of raising the chances of 8v8 being brought back, it diminishes them.

I'd like to see you run a succesfull business if you treat your customers like children.

Nadia Roark · Jan 08, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

I can't speak for Earendil but I wasn't so much attacking the practice of protesting, merely the manner in which it is currently being carried out. Players have demonstrated here time and time again that they want 8v8 HA back, but I have seen very few of them attempt to explain why the change back to 8-man is necessary--be it for the preservation of the game or to encourage new styles of play.

Persoanlly, I think the best way to effect a change back to 8v8 is to participate in the upcoming HA event. Personally I don't plan on taking very many of you seriously if you sit it out on principle, since it will be completely impossible for you to argue the "new" 6v6 against the old 8v8 if you never gave the former a try. Approach their changes with an open mind and offer honest, clear complaints when they arise. The only way we as a community can possibly see our wishes through is to be patient and reasonable. Someone earlier drew a comparison to a science experiment or a math problem or something: we only want to be changing one variable at a time here so we can find out exactly what's wrong and how to fix it. The first step, as it were, is for us to evaluate the new maps and victory conditions. Just deal with it, and take the rest as it comes. There's no use getting worked up over this.

And JR: just because ANet might not capitulate to whiners doesn't mean they're "treating us like children." I think if they're listening to what we say--and sending CR reps out here to deal with us--they're treating us all right.

Earendil · Jan 08, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I'd like to see you run a succesfull business if you treat your customers like children.

I'm tempted to say that many companies actually treat customers as children (just see the advertising part). And this is a gaming business not an accounting or law firm. And I cannot consider the HA trade spam protest or the "wish you get fired then die in a car crash" post as anything but childish.

Childish actions usually receive child oriented replies.

However I see a point in that Anet, unlike a parent, is not responsible of the child/protester's evolution. If I'm the owner of the shop I'd be happy to sell that girl a toy, regardless of how she convinced her parent to get the money. I'm pretty sure that if 8v8 would actually fit Anets economical model they would be less hesitant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I can't speak for Earendil but I wasn't so much attacking the practice of protesting, merely the manner in which it is currently being carried out. Players have demonstrated here time and time again that they want[ 8v8 HA back, but I have seen very few of them attempt to explain why the change back to 8-man is necessary--be it for the preservation of the game or to encourage new styles of play.

There have been many clear and rational posts about the advantages of 8v8 - they got buried usually under pages of junk but there is one main reason that everyone agrees on:

8v8 advantages the skilled players.
In 8v8 you have more space for utilities. You can make a balanced build that can counter with reasonable success gimmick builds. When a group of skilled people play in 6v6 they have higher odds of losing a game against a less skilled team running a gimmick. Therefore its understandable why the more skilled players advocate 8v8 - they hate losing to less skilled people (don't we all). It's a build vs skill issue.

The other reasons, like 8v8 being more noob friendly or even "8 people on vent are more fun that 6" are anecdotical. The FoTMs were common in 8v8, are comon in 6v6, will always be here in a form or another, and are better countered through skill balances than player count changes.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 08, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

8v8 advantages the skilled players.
In 8v8 you have more space for utilities. You can make a balanced build that can counter with reasonable success gimmick builds. When a group of skilled people play in 6v6 they have higher odds of losing a game against a less skilled team running a gimmick. Therefore its understandable why the more skilled players advocate 8v8 - they hate losing to less skilled people (don't we all). It's a build vs skill issue.

The other reasons, like 8v8 being more noob friendly or even "8 people on vent are more fun that 6" are anecdotical. The FoTMs were common in 8v8, are comon in 6v6, will always be here in a form or another, and are better countered through skill balances than player count changes.

Yea, part of it is that it's buildwars. But I can honestly say that in 8v8 I had much more fun than 6v6, winning or losing, low ranked or high ranked.

Nadia Roark · Jan 08, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Well said. Leaving aside the complaining about what's being run right now in tombs the build vs. skill issue is an interesting and important one.

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 08, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Yea, part of it is that it's buildwars. But I can honestly say that in 8v8 I had much more fun than 6v6, winning or losing, low ranked or high ranked.

This can be explained why in a fairly simple way.

Reminder: Balance requires more skill than fotms.

8v8 allowed room to counter fotms. Being able to counter the fotms while running a balanced build means balance > fotm.

Balance requires more skill = more fun to play + can kill fotms = enjoyable HA.

In 6v6, you can't fit all the counters to the fotms. This means your build will probably get rolled by a lesser skilled team running a fotm. Hence, fotm > balance.

fotm > balance = no point to run balance = skill level drops.

Skill level drop + only being able to run fotms to be successful = less fun = broken HA = why play HA?

Map and objective "revisions" won't do anything according to this. Fotms will still be ran, and balanced can't counter them all with the limited room available. This keeps fotms being better than balanced, which keeps HA broken.

8v8 please. I'd rather run balanced and be successful than run balance and let a fotm we can't counter due to lack of room roll us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendil

The other reasons, like 8v8 being more noob friendly or even "8 people on vent are more fun that 6" are anecdotical. The FoTMs were common in 8v8, are comon in 6v6, will always be here in a form or another, and are better countered through skill balances than player count changes.

Skill balances will help a little, but 6v6 just limits builds too much if you don't want to run a lame fotm. There will always be gimmick fotms, no matter how much you balance skills. Without the extra 2 spots to counter all the fotms, its almost pointless to run anything but a fotm.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 08, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Awesome post Bacon. Everything you've written is so true. Nothing more to add really..

Nadia Roark · Jan 08, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that the map/victory changes can't do something about "build vs. skill." It seems to me like most of these fotm teams are built to hold. Players realize that with 6-minute tombs and lots of skips, the only way to rack up the fame (and now moreso than ever really) is to be able to hold against two other teams for 2 minutes. More maps should entail a wider variance of skips. So if the days of the Zaishen-BT-Courtyard/HoH skips are numbered, it could make it harder for a build like that to dominate the entire tournament without any real effort or skill.

Also we should be open to the possibility that a skill balance could open up some room for added utility. I agree with you if you're saying that with the existing skills effective counters are difficult to come by in 6v6, but we should be open to the possbility that buffs/nerfs can fix things just as well as a change in player format.

leguma · Jan 08, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Also we should be open to the possibility that a skill balance could open up some room for added utility.

Please explain to us how this would be possible? Regardless of how much the devs ballance the skills and change them, each and every team in HA will need 2 monks (I'm using the word monk here for ease, but you can replace it with necro/monk or necro/rit, or whatever else is currently buing used). One monk cannot function in a 6v6 environment because it is by far too easy to shut down and overpower, so the number of monks cannot go below 2. Now, if you consider that for every two characters in your party, you need a monk, and also consider the fact that each and every other game type in GW has a much better character/monk ratio, you will understand that 6v6 is seriously flawed in terms of flexibility. Additional skills that benefit the party's defenses such as wards and the likes don't enter the equasion simply because they are omipresent across all game types.

The less flexibility your build has, the fewer other builds it can counter, and the more important the skills you have on your bar become. Thus, the build become more important than how you play it. You can turn this arround and toss it any which way, but the simple fact is: you can't have just 1 monk in a 6 man team, and 2 monks give you the poorest monk/character ratio. It's plain math, has nothing to do with FOTM, the objectives of the maps, how many maps there are or any other factor.

drekmonger · Jan 09, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

Please explain to us how this would be possible? Regardless of how much the devs ballance the skills and change them, each and every team in HA will need 2 monks (

Please.

Once upon a time, it was unthinkable to run less than 3 monks in GvG. Back in old PvP Tombs, I had to pull teeth for hours to get people to try builds with 1 or 0 monks that later became popular (IWAY and FoC Spike, in particular). People right now are running 2 or 3 monks in HvH -- for the most part beatable by an offensive build with 0 monks.

There's always been a tenancy among the general PvP population to place too much stock on monks and other defensive characters. Game rules should be changed in every PvP mode to punish this, as overly defensive builds make for boring matches. True whether we are talking about 6v6 or 8v8 or 4v4 or 24v24.

Under the current ruleset for altar matches in HA, defensive teams are rewarded. But -- under a slightly different ruleset, offensive teams could thrive. If a mesmer is shutting down your 1 monk -- sic your mez or your warrior or your assassin on him. If a warrior is chasing down your monk, shut him down with blinds. Or wait for him to overextend and splatter him with an assassin. There's more defensive tactics in the game than just running more monks.

I'll agree that a majority of HA players seem to prefer 8v8, but I hope people will be fair when they test out the changes on the 19th.