Curse

horta · Jan 18, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Hi there...

I was thinking about this issue and i would like to have your opinion about this.

What are the best 2 monks backline atm in GvG?

My guild runs this team:

http://gwshack.us/8d22c

From testing i believe they dont have that synergie that its always nice to have on them.
We run them along with dual Aegis on some other /Mo chars.

Any thoughts apreciated.

Edit: forgot to say that we run another char with expel, so monk dont really have to worry so much about it.

Burton2000 · Jan 18, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Virtually the same but LoD instead of ZB as ZB is very crappy in 8v8.

mike1480 · Jan 18, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Problem with heavy prot backline monks is that they are weak against grenth's dervs and heavy enchant strippers.

Our guild has tried this interesting modification:

Glimmer of Light, Heal Other, Words of Comfort, Dismiss Condition, Holy Veil, Signet of Devotion, Return, Dark Escape

Divert Hexes, Gift of Health, Protective Spirit, Reveral of Fortune, Shield of Absorbtion, Gaurdian, Dismiss Condition, Hex Breaker

-There is also a draw conditions in the build dedicated to anti-Blinding surgers and deep wound removal on spikes

moriz · Jan 18, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

you can't have a backline without taking the rest of the build into account.

there's no such thing as the "best" monk backline. it all depends on the entire build.

Neo-LD · Jan 18, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you can't have a backline without taking the rest of the build into account.

there's no such thing as the "best" monk backline. it all depends on the entire build.

QFT. Backlines need to be created with the rest of the build in mind. No draw in the build? RC becomes more attractive. Little or no Heal Party in the build? LoD becomes more attractive. Few hex removals in the build? Divert Hexes, Blessed Light, and Purge Signet become more attractive. Etc etc etc.

But its not like there is nothing to discuss here, after all certain monk templates and backline pairings are quite popular right now this is worthy of discussion. Right now I like using a BL + ZB combination similar to the one in the OP in the context of the Eurosplit build that we have been running lately. However, there are some key differences. I dont think that monks have room anymore to take both Dark Escape and Return. Just look at the ZB monk: no room for RoF OR Gift.

Also, backlines are just as dependent or more on the preferences of the players that use them, rather that what the supposed 'optimal configuration' would be. For example, ZB and Infuse are typically found on the same monk in most backlines. But between me and my usual monk partner, (Nyla), I am much more comfortable with Infuse, but Im also pretty cruddy at ZB, whereas Nyla rocks at ZB. I love B-Light instead. So in our backline, the B-Light monk has Infuse instead of the ZB, even though that is not the norm.

JR · Jan 18, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

There is some synergy to be taken into account between backlines and builds as whole. For example in a build with no Wards, Blind or other Melee mitigation you may want to run Aegis chain on your backline.

However, you can use suggested backlines as an example. This is currently the backline I enjoy running the most:

Zee Bee
Monk/Elementalist

Divine Favor: 13 (12+1)
Healing Prayers: 4 (3+1)
Protection Prayers: 14 (12+2)

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Infuse Health (Healing Prayers)
- Zealous Benediction [Elite] (Protection Prayers)
- Spirit Bond (Protection Prayers)
- Shield of Absorption (Protection Prayers)
- Dismiss Condition (Protection Prayers)
- Holy Veil (Monk other)
- Glyph of Lesser Energy (Elementalist other)

YAA Prot
Monk/Warrior

Divine Favor: 12 (11+1)
Healing Prayers: 14 (12+2)
Protection Prayers: 7 (6+1)

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
- Gift of Health (Healing Prayers)
- Dismiss Condition (Protection Prayers)
- Shield of Absorption (Protection Prayers)
- Holy Veil (Monk other)
- "You're All Alone!" [Elite] (Warrior other)
- Purge Signet (Monk other)

Neo-LD · Jan 18, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

JR would you mind explaining the reasoning behind yaa on a monk? I had been meaning to ask ever since I spotted you guys using it on obs.

Warskull · Jan 18, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Right now ZB is definately one of the two. ZB is a rock solid skill. The second monk is still up in the air. I see a lot of teams running LoD.

JR · Jan 18, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

JR would you mind explaining the reasoning behind yaa on a monk? I had been meaning to ask ever since I spotted you guys using it on obs.

If you have a Warrior or Dervish extended on you, you just YAA him and he is no longer a threat. 10 second Cripple/Weakness that you can cycle. For 5 energy it really makes it worth it in terms of damage mitigation. Just having it on your bar basicly means that their Melee always has to be in range of Condition removal which really punishes teams without midline Draws. Even when they do have something like a Smiter with Draw it stops them being able to effectively train your backline. In the past if you had extended Melee on you the only option to relieve the pressure would have to call for a Warrior or significant caster damage on them in order to make them pull back, which disrupts your offense a lot. Another bonus is it's value in split situations where you need to send a Monk back to deal with any Melee in your base.

If you call for a big push you can even use it offensively, snaring badly positioned monks or other soft targets for your own Melee to beat on, or snaring flaggers that are pushing deep to get a critical cap.

Bankai · Jan 18, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Very interesting. I like your reasoning.

I like LoD infuse+ZB a lot myself.

JR · Jan 18, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Very interesting. I like your reasoning.

I like LoD infuse+ZB a lot myself.

Right. Another example of Monk synergy with your build as a whole. With no Light of Deliverance or Heal Party on a runner or off-monk I would certainly drop the YAA for an LoD.

My preffered LoD bar is basicly entirely the same, just with LoD instead of YAA. I don't run Infuse on that guy - because it synergizes badly with Gift, and to be frank a 14 spec Gift of Health is hard to give up, due to it's amazing efficiency for a 5 energy heal. Juggling LoD and Gift on the same bar can be somewhat tricky to get used to, but is entirely manageable with a little experience, and you really get the best out of your bar.

Infuse works well with ZB as a self heal, and doesn't require a high spec to be effective, so I am happy with keeping it on that character. That character really doesn't need Gift as a heal, due to having ZB and Glyph of Lesser Energy to fuel using it.

Legendary Shiz · Jan 18, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

YAA, you're crazy JR. I really wanna try that sometime soon.

BTW, I don't see sig of devotion

MaaKotka · Jan 18, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Doesn't return do pretty much same thing as YAA while not being elite? Well longer recharge, but jumping is still useful against melandrus dervishes which aren't too rare in current meta. And superior rune with infuser.. i'm shocked

Are those 2 points really worth being easier spikable?

As for monks I think that dual BL:s are still consederable choise and also dark escape and return. Those /a skills make you just so much harder to kill. Anyway I haven't found any monk build to be superior to other, it is more what your team build needs.

Royale · Jan 18, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Zee Bee
Monk/Elementalist

Divine Favor: 13 (12+1)
Healing Prayers: 4 (3+1)
Protection Prayers: 14 (12+2)

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Infuse Health (Healing Prayers)
- Zealous Benediction [Elite] (Protection Prayers)
- Spirit Bond (Protection Prayers)
- Shield of Absorption (Protection Prayers)
- Dismiss Condition (Protection Prayers)
- Holy Veil (Monk other)
- Glyph of Lesser Energy (Elementalist other)

YAA Prot
Monk/Warrior

Divine Favor: 12 (11+1)
Healing Prayers: 14 (12+2)
Protection Prayers: 7 (6+1)

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
- Gift of Health (Healing Prayers)
- Dismiss Condition (Protection Prayers)
- Shield of Absorption (Protection Prayers)
- Holy Veil (Monk other)
- "You're All Alone!" [Elite] (Warrior other)
- Purge Signet (Monk other)

Sup rune on your infuser and 14 healing on the other monk just for a more powerful GoH seems a bit inefficient to me. Is your main reasoning for those specs due to Grenth's dervishes or what?

Thomas.knbk · Jan 18, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

YAA, you're crazy JR. I really wanna try that sometime soon.

BTW, I don't see sig of devotion

zee bee equals es oh dee on steroids.
/goes to masturbate on a 14 spec gift of health

JR · Jan 18, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Doesn't return do pretty much same thing as YAA while not being elite? Well longer recharge, but jumping is still useful against melandrus dervishes which aren't too rare in current meta. And superior rune with infuser.. i'm shocked

Are those 2 points really worth being easier spikable?

As for monks I think that dual BL:s are still consederable choise and also dark escape and return. Those /a skills make you just so much harder to kill. Anyway I haven't found any monk build to be superior to other, it is more what your team build needs.

Woops, the sup was a mistake. Fixed.

Return is a 15 second recharge with a short duration Cripple. Great for mobility, but I really don't rate it that high in close flag stand battles, where the guy you are Returning too isn't going to be far enough away for the distance of the Shadow Step to make nearly as much difference as the Cripple it's self.

Not a huge fan of Blessed Light at the moment. The heal is vastly inefficient compared to Gift of Health, it's only really worth it if you are getting the most out of that AND removing a hex. Even with both of those I really don't see much of a reason to use it over just Gift and Veil.

Ruricu · Jan 18, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

If you have a Warrior or Dervish extended on you, you just YAA him and he is no longer a threat. 10 second Cripple/Weakness that you can cycle. For 5 energy it really makes it worth it in terms of damage mitigation. Just having it on your bar basicly means that their Melee always has to be in range of Condition removal which really punishes teams without midline Draws. Even when they do have something like a Smiter with Draw it stops them being able to effectively train your backline. In the past if you had extended Melee on you the only option to relieve the pressure would have to call for a Warrior or significant caster damage on them in order to make them pull back, which disrupts your offense a lot. Another bonus is it's value in split situations where you need to send a Monk back to deal with any Melee in your base.

If you call for a big push you can even use it offensively, snaring badly positioned monks or other soft targets for your own Melee to beat on, or snaring flaggers that are pushing deep to get a critical cap.

Only one piece of flawed logic I see in that post... As long as the opposing team has at least two melee classes (as most do) they can effectively train all they want... they just have to stay relatively close together, which isn't uncommon during a warrior train.

JR · Jan 18, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruricu

Only one piece of flawed logic I see in that post... As long as the opposing team has at least two melee classes (as most do) they can effectively train all they want... they just have to stay relatively close together, which isn't uncommon during a warrior train.

You may be surprised how unappealing it is to have two melee training the same target with chained Shield of Absorption and Blinding Surge.

calderstrake · Jan 18, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There is some synergy to be taken into account between backlines and builds as whole.

Most important point in this thread so far.

We currently run 2x Mo/E LoD + ZB with Aegis chain. ZB on the defensive split is a real no-brainer and with LoD on the forward push, you can maintain multiple targets without draining your energy pool so fast.

I want to get a different backline for another build, but moving away from the Aegis and GoLE is hard when it works so well.

Seamus Finn · Jan 19, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Actually if there is no heal parties in the build, and you are running a very offensive build in general, I really like to run the Healer's Boon monk(I stole it from Red Bars) that uses a GoLE to power out huge heal parties. I suppose a Divert or maybe Blight is nice with him, ZB tends to not get the bonuses. Basically since drain enchant is dead, mes tends to use the shatter for damage so you really just need to prekite the grenth as long as you can I suppose. But he can really power heal your party through the initial push if your build can stomp heads fast...