Curse

Divineshadows · Jan 23, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Hi, I'm curious, how do you fail to score kills with a balanced pressure build? Every single group I played with over the weekend managed to do it with ease. I expect and yet dread to hear answers like "we had no snares," "we ran out of energy because we didn't have +11 pips of energy regen from Soul Reaping," "we had no source of melee damage," or "we had no spike component to finish off low players." But, I'd like to hear it from you... How do you fail to score kills with a balanced pressure build?

I bet the answers to all those questions come down to inability to adapt. I mean, just from reading the update notes about HA map objectives it was completely obvious that winning was about having killing power, mobility, and snares.

Even if they stuck with abusing soul reaping for 15 pips of energy regen and didn't want to use any melee, they still could have modded the build to include a deep freeze (even at 25 energy on a 15 second recharge it can be spammed under this build) and perhaps even an imagined burden.

It stands to reason that someone from [ftl] would be bitter about the weekend's test. I mean, after all, that guild is one of the guilds benefitting the most from the current crappy format of altar holding.

Sunrah Nubian · Jan 23, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Seph

Why would you say that skill gets dominating again?? All these changes do is make all the altar maps into 1 big pure chaos, pretty much based on luck who gets the points.

I know you are a high ranked (12+) player but I have a very hard time understanding this viewpoint. I played with many different groups this last weekend, running many different kinds of builds, and the groups I was in were able to consistently do well on three way maps and it was not accomplished through kill stealing. How did we accomplish this miraculous feat over pure chaos? We did it through tactics and positioning, through the realization that the new formats required movement buffs and snares for the other team, through the idea that by looking at the radar you can see if you are about to get pinched between two teams and get out of that poor positioning. The problem on a lot of those maps is that many people had not comprehended the tactics fully (or even at all) and were not really playing to win. They were holding on to some bizarre notion of how HA "should" be instead of adapting and enjoying the new format. The thing I like best about the new formats was that you could not set up camp with pets, spirits, and minions and let the ai play for you like many nearly retarded teams do today.

Also for those that say pressure builds do not work in the new format, I also do not believe this to be true. While it may be easier to run a pure damage or spike build, I was able to play a few pressure builds. One of the builds I played in had a crip/apply ranger, another was running a Mantra of Recovery mesmer whose only form of damage was 71 pts through the skill mistrust, and that damage only applied if the caster tried to cast with the hex on. Neither of which does much damage, and the teams I was on did very well with both of the builds. The only criticism of the weekend that I agree with was that there were too many variables to accurately assess the quality of the changes. Teams had to be skilled in two formats (build making and tactics) to succeed in the new formats.

Regardless, it seems I am in the minority of posters, but I was extremely happy to not be required to have ward of stability and song of concentration in the build. Also extremely happy to not have to tailor the monk bars to trying to keep an idiot npc alive on an alter. The only thing I would change was the hoh relic runs, and those could easily be fixed by lengthening the time between the auto ressurections, so you would have more viable tactics other than just pick up the relic/run/body block. It would also be good to put death penalty back on that map. That way, you could just work on dp'ing out the team in the lead and then try to run a relic. Of course, it would also be possible to change the map so body blocking is not so simple, but I really do not think that is necessary.

As to the whole 6v6 vs 8v8 thing, I think the new formats would be just as fun, if not more fun, in an 8v8 environment as well.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 23, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Hi, I'm curious, how do you fail to score kills with a balanced pressure build? Every single group I played with over the weekend managed to do it with ease. I expect and yet dread to hear answers like "we had no snares," "we ran out of energy because we didn't have +11 pips of energy regen from Soul Reaping," "we had no source of melee damage," or "we had no spike component to finish off low players." But, I'd like to hear it from you... How do you fail to score kills with a balanced pressure build?

One trick pony is never quick to learn or adapt, thus the crying from [ftl] jagged bones farmers. Cause that is their "pressure" build.

IMO Anet is trying to make Heroes Ascent much better than it is. Because right now this place is cesspool of lame, noob and pathetic. The new altar mechanic is better than the old one, because is faster, more dynamic and more interesting. However the changes for the good wont be complete if they wont revert Heroes Ascent to 8 v 8, as only this format can guarantee proper balance of builds.

And to answer the question of op, we will see if they care about us, if they will give us the change back to 8 man teams, something we've been asking for months. Because you've got to understand, that even if some proposed changes are nice, the real problems are 6v6 and proper skill balance that is currently ruining Heroes Ascent as high-end competetive arena.

phasola · Jan 23, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Another great idea from TGH. Feel free to comment

.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...27#post2475027

B Ephekt · Jan 23, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I enjoyed the new alter mechanics. IMO, it takes more skill and coordination to know when to push and when to play defensive than it does to ward up and seed a ghost with an ultra defensive build. The random objectives in halls keeps things interesting by encouraging balanced, or at least offensively oriented builds, instead of providing an environment for scrub builds (Mystic Wrath, Blood Spike, Spirit/Jaggedway) to hold with minimal effort.

As for those saying that pressure builds couldn't kill, either your build was trash (Jagged bones anyone) or you're bad in general.

Life Bringer · Jan 23, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Regarding the thread phasola posted you say feel free to comment. I dont think I could without using language that would get me banned from the forum. All I will say is that ass lone samurai is the sort of person who has caused anet to make the ridiculous changes that they have. He is an ingnorant person who should take his pve fow armour covered arse and never dare to comment on pvp again. The only person who thinks the game should be "rebirthed" should not be allowed to play gw and obviously sucks because they cant compete in the current environment. Sorry I posted this here but had to get it off my chest and the other thread was closed.

coleslawdressin · Jan 24, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

As for those saying that pressure builds couldn't kill, either your build was trash (Jagged bones anyone) or you're bad in general.

No, I disagree. It isn't that it can't kill it is that pressure builds are at a disadvantage in general. ANET needs to be less reluctant to go reverse their mistakes like 6v6. Broken went 3-way under the old mechanics of cap and hold the altar. There is no reason that it needs to be three-way now... Two way won't make teams run holding builds because they still need to kill to win. I would be okay with changing broken back to 2-way and keeping Courtyard 3-way for some variety. Plus Courtyard was designed to hold 3 teams.

Clinically Proven · Jan 24, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Once you understand the point that holding builds were not a major issue in 8v8, you come to realize that these changes are crap.

I certainly remember 8v8 holding builds. I played 8v8 builds with a Dedicated Oath Shot fertile/symb ranger brought along especially for holding or e/mos and n/mos with HH, Healing seed, HP, MoP et al.

Whether its 8v8 or 6v6 makes no difference at all, it's the atlar mechanic that encourages overly defensive builds not how many people in the team, if you cannot see that then you sir, fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

....if they wont revert Heroes Ascent to 8 v 8, as only this format can guarantee proper balance of builds.

(my bold)

A completely unsubstaniated statement. Prove it.

Black Strobe · Jan 24, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayame ftw

We tried Ha when on Friday evening. After a couple of runs we saw the update was completely stupid and refused to play until the weekend was over. We rage quitted after running around a team on broken tower for 10 min trying to score a kill with a pressure build….
So we did so GvG/PvE instead... its sad but true. I think this happened to allot of Ha guilds

Sure it happened to alot of players, that refuse to use their brains.

We had 2 copies of Gale, Death Charge on the Ele with Foes and Shockwave, Pious Haste on our Dervish and an Assassin with Shadowprison and no problems at all with teams running around.

B Ephekt · Jan 24, 2007, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

No, I disagree.

Well, congratulations on having an opinion. Now, mind explaining why you disagree? Nothing else in your post supported your opening statement.

Quote:

It isn't that it can't kill it is that pressure builds are at a disadvantage in general.

I personally had much success with a dual dervish pressure build this past weekend, which leads me back to my original statement.

God Apprentice · Jan 24, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Hi, my name is Soul Reaping+Jagged Bones+Quickeing Zephyr. I give N/*s lots of energy to do whatever they want. It's about eleven additional pips of energy regenration, or fifteen total pips of energy regeneration. I quoted the post of a guy whos guild just so happens to run said build that abuses Soul Reaping to give N/*s lots of energy to do whatever they want. "WTF" indeed.

(This was the best response I could come up with without calling you a complete and total idiot. I realise it's fairly lacking, too, but it's not like you asked a real question or anything)

Well you quoted me and presented a point but the point I was making is that it's not providing 11 PIPS of regen, it is providing energy.

Randomway Ftw · Jan 24, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinically Proven

I certainly remember 8v8 holding builds. I played 8v8 builds with a Dedicated Oath Shot fertile/symb ranger brought along especially for holding or e/mos and n/mos with HH, Healing seed, HP, MoP et al.

Whether its 8v8 or 6v6 makes no difference at all, it's the atlar mechanic that encourages overly defensive builds not how many people in the team, if you cannot see that then you sir, fail.

(my bold)

A completely unsubstaniated statement. Prove it.

Holding builds were not a major issue in 8v8. The main reason people complain about holding builds right now is because they feel that the matches are boring because they last too long, and feel that the so called "holding" builds lack the ability to kill them and needlessly prolong the match, they feel that it is a form of griefing. The difference is that defensive builds in 8v8 and 6v6 is that so called defensive were still capable of getting kills, and most balanced builds had room for the utility to counter those builds (for example pd = no spirits from spirit spammer.

I'm assuming the example you stated of a holding builds is bloodspike, first of all bloodspike lost its incredible holding ability with the nerf to soul reaping from spirits. After the nerf, Bloodspike would almost always collapse on an altar map to two high pressure teams if the pressure teams knew what they were doing.

Near the end of 8v8 the only bloodspike that was popular was 7 necro, 1 rit og spike, which had significantly less holding power than the previous versions, it lacked energy, and the ablility to withstand long term pressure.

BTW defensive utility does not equal holding build, for example fertile season is a lifesaver against spikes, while healing seed allows you to keep targets alive that are under heavy pressure (ghostly hero).

Defensive builds were not limited to HA either, GvG has VoD builds which prolong the game until VoD and use their strategy, and skills which have been optimized for VoD to win.

In short 8v8 has more utility, and more possiblities which means that their is less of a chance that a gimmicky strategy will remain uncounterd, leading to more emphasis on player skill. Their is nothing wrong with people holding through player skill.

ayanaftw · Jan 24, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

i do like the new hoh update they added, its a little refreshing from the same old rules.

what anet should really do for a weekend event is to unnerf everything (cept spirit spam). just a weekend, it'll be fun

they can call it nostalgia weekend or something like tat.

Senator Tom · Jan 24, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Basically, the current fame gain system promotes holding, so why did they go and nerf holding now? The fame gain system should be changed according to the changes to tombs gameplay (1 fame per 10 kills on deathmatch, per relic capped, etc.). Even if they do that, tombs will still suck. 8v8 was much more fun when it was semi balanced and you'd see a little bit of everything (iway, rspike, bspike, balanced, uber holding, etc). At this point in the tombs timeline, its pretty much jagged bones and cookie cutter balanced. The limit of 6 people per team limits the capabilities to deal with certain builds. 8v8 gets rid of that problem. Overall, I don't think that anet cares about the views of the active, experienced tombs players, but rather the views of the nubs who are like r2 and want to pvp but "zomg qq cnt get intwo good grupes".

Kind of off topic, but I just can't stand the r3 nubs that dont understand what high rank pvp is like and they come into this thread posting without having a clue as to whats going on and what the real problems with tombs are.

And finally, my way to solve tombs
have a 6v6 and an 8v8 :O
this will make all of the vets happy at the return of 8v8, and the scrubs who like 6v6 will stay happy (yes, all 5 of them)

Divineshadows · Jan 24, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Well you quoted me and presented a point but the point I was making is that it's not providing 11 PIPS of regen, it is providing energy.

When discussing energy management on these forums, the posters have traditionally quantified the energy management in terms of "pips" of energy management. Old monking threads from the boon prot days broke down how many effective "pips" of energy skills such as offering of blood, mantra of recall, energy drain, drain enchantment, power drain, etc. gave you.

Another way you can quantify incoming energy is in terms of energy gained per minute, but again this unit can easily be converted to pips as well.

God Apprentice · Jan 24, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

When discussing energy management on these forums, the posters have traditionally quantified the energy management in terms of "pips" of energy management. Old monking threads from the boon prot days broke down how many effective "pips" of energy skills such as offering of blood, mantra of recall, energy drain, drain enchantment, power drain, etc. gave you.

Another way you can quantify incoming energy is in terms of energy gained per minute, but again this unit can easily be converted to pips as well.

Ok better to understand and with a ps about almost insulting my intelligence. That's how I look at it as energy gain per min, sorry just wierd to see it referred to as "pips".

Ok back on topic now.

mikkel · Jan 24, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringer

Im sorry mikkel but frankly you are talking out of your arse. You say that if the majoriy of pvp ers will start playing an aspect of pvp if changes are made they should be changed. That is frankly ridiculous: I have been ha ing for most of my time on GW (along with a lot of gvg) and it is not our duty to adapt to what pve ers want in ha it is upto them to adapt to the ha format, it works both ways, I would love FOW armour but I will nenver get as I dont enjoy pve enough to spend the time to get it I would love it if it were easy to get it and Im sure my ha friends would too, this does not mean that FOW armour should be made cheaper because ha ers want to get it more easliy. Im sorry and I know this is going to sound arogant but wisdom does come with age/expirience and it should be the rank9+ people that should be being listened to as they know about ha better than anyone else because they have played it most, people who have little expirience of ha and find it hard should not be being listened to.

If anyone is talking out of their ass here, surely it's you. I made it abundantly clear several times that I was *not* saying that PvE only players should influence the direction that PvP is taking. Nor have I made any claims to what would make anyone play anything else.

Do yourself a favour and read posts before spouting unsubstantiated crap and how you just totally put someone down for something you didn't get.

Makkert · Jan 24, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

I read the threadtitle. Then I stopped.

I just couldn't be bothered to read whatever the OP has to say when the threadtitle is such a QQ emo question like there were dozens exactly like that before him, and all answered.

Stixxx · Jan 24, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

In 8v8 was there ever a constant problem with holding builds? The two most overpowered things that people used to hold halls were pre-nerf bloodspike, and old spirit, only one of these builds lacked the ability to kill something (spirit spam), the other was perfectly able of killing by spiking until the infuser ran out of energy, the build was just overpowered all around.

Once you understand the point that holding builds were not a major issue in 8v8, you come to realize that these changes are crap.

I agree on your thoughts on 8v8, but it isnt 8v8. Its 6v6, and the only builds that hold halls nowadays are the lame holding builds that EVERYONE is running. Is it either jagged bones, the old dual paragon, spiritway, zergway or eleballs, it doesnt matter. If someone makes an effort an creates an entirely new build, he only gets to test it on the first 2 maps because anywhere beyond those points he WILL meet a very defensive build that shuts him down.

Once you understand that holding builds were not a major issue in 8v8, but they are in 6v6, you come to realize that these changes werent as bad as you might think.

I might get flamed to bits for this, but as far as i can see almost 50% of players who are whining and complaining about these changes, are only doing it because, for 1 weekend, theyre steady fame flow got shut down.

Also: During the weekend i havent seen any guilds win that usually DOMINATE HoH. No [ftl], no [PIMP], no [Girl] just to name a few. could be that they play on different times tho.

Bryant Again · Jan 24, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

I read the threadtitle. Then I stopped.

I just couldn't be bothered to read whatever the OP has to say when the threadtitle is such a QQ emo question like there were dozens exactly like that before him, and all answered.

But you were bothered enough to make a post and provide no meaningful discussion?

The OP does have a point. If ANet listened to the HA players, it seems like they would've changed 8v8 back. This is of course assuming most HA players want 8v8. I'm just assuming from the poll made in this forum.