Curse

Patccmoi · Jan 23, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I'd like to say that for me this was the best change to HA done yet by far. I didn't like the altar mechanic before because of how it lead to a heavily defensive metagame that made game more boring than anything imo. Mainly, now i had FUN playing HA (and we had quite good success too). I don't really care about fame farming so the fact that it's now possibly harder to win 20 in a row doesn't really bother me, i felt like we had a realistic chance to win any game and we went on pretty good consec runs of 8-9 games too facing all kind of builds.

While people might say that it's now a scrubfest with no tactics i'd differ TOTALLY on that point. After being ganked/screwed up on the new altar maps, we adapted our tactics and our % of winning there improved significantly. HoH is very strategic now with altar capping (can't comment on Murder Ball, didn't get to try that one) and much more intense. Before there was some strategy, but in fact they were quite simple (gank holding team, song of concentration, interrupt/knock enemy ghost if possible, use the insane amount of defense in your build to survive).

Most of the people i know in game and everyone i played with, a good many of them actually being mainly HAers for a good while (rank 9-11s), loved the changes.

I think that the current changes are far better balanced for a 6v6 HoH and it didn't feel at all like 8v8 was so important for balance anymore because the rid of the 'holding the altar' mechanic freed up so many skill slots and sometimes full player slots to add other needed utility. I think that it can open up a LOT of viable options for balanced builds. Before we did various good setups that would easily go and win HoH, but without packing 1000 defensive skills we couldn't hold efficiently. Now that holding isn't about stalling but about actually achieving something, builds don't need a stalling power anymore. And we didn't play neither spike OR AOE all the time i HAed this weekend and we had very good success againt both, so i don't buy that HA is now all about AOE and spike cause it's not my experience at all. I think that spike and AOE is simply the easiest way to beat so-so teams.

Dutchie · Jan 23, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

As i said before, HA is boring, and keeps getting more boring with all these changes/tests. You can bassicly do 3 types of builds: Zergway (fear me/par), Spirit/Jagged way, Huge aoe damage. Personally i dont think any of these builds take a lot of skill to play. Not trying to whine, but if you would consider bringing back 8v8, think of all the cool builds you could make!! And different builds mean more competition between builds which means more fun

! Because with half of the fights now, you can bassicly resign before the fight starts if you see their build.

Conclusion: I'm getting pretty tired of playing the same builds all day, and having to roll 25% of the fights because you cant kill each other.

Deaths · Jan 23, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

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The evnet Showed that nothing big changed.
Altar Maps are now Death Maps.
Hall of Heros has 3 Options. Two of them are well known (Relict run and Death match) The Third one is a Copy of Hero Battle (Hold the Flag Stands).
The new map is Burial (I am happy its back, was removed long ago) and Scared (Finally) is removed.
Some Skill Ballance (Skill Ballance is nothing newfor old Hags).
On first day of Event i meet alote of Old HA Players back in HA. We talked together and the most of em are playing now PVE or just quit game (they just back come back if something really big changed).
Now they just do the same thing before event beguns. Like me they are a bit disapointed.

I hope A-net will not do the same mistake like in the 6vs6 DOUBLE FAME event. The big rush in that event was not the 6vs6. It was the Double Fame. I know alote of PPl that gained in that event more then 2k Fame (Reaching r6 or r9 in 5 days Oo).
I worked very Hard for my r3 r6 r9.(After reliase of Prophecie u needed to win two matches to get 1 Fame and Burial was 6vs6 so it was not easy to win the second match

). After i got that rank every time a ..... change come up into HA in fame reward or map construction (no new maps just a few changes that made the HA easier) and every noob could reach with easy r3 r6 r9. Now iam a bit pissed. Since 1 year i am not playing alote HA. Iam so close to r 10 but to think that i will work hard for r 12 and then a change will come in Fame reward and every noob is getting r 12 is making me mad. Thats why iam waiting for another double fame event (i will spam there and will try to get r11) or fame change. And if there will not come a change i will not play HA.

To get back live into HA Double Fame is needed (or changes in the Fame reward). Alote of my friends are thinking the same way like me.

Again there are no new maps

(How there can be new maps in GvG pve and TA and nothing for HA?????)

B Ephekt · Jan 23, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

-Burial Mounds: I'm happy to see this map back in the rotation, it was unique and one of my favorite maps.

-Broken Tower/Courtyard: The new alter mechanic is much more fun than the old cap and hold, or interrupt and energy deny the ghost, mechanic. I like the fact that it encourages offensively oriented builds rather than boring defensive builds. The time limit should be reduced to 6-8 minutes, however; 10 is a bit too long.

Broken Tower seems a bit small and constricting for a 3-way match, I think 1v1 would be best on this map. Courtyard is big enough to support 3-way, I think it should remain that way.

-Scarred Earth: I never disliked this map for some reason. I don't mind it's removal though, but please add a map in its place!

-HoH: I like the random win conditions and new game types for the most part, but didn't get to play enough HoH matches to say much more.

-New Maps: I was disappointed to see no new maps; all we got was a swap out with a previously removed map. RA, TA and GvG have gotten new maps with each new chapter... so where's the love for tombs? I think the tournament could stand 3-5 new maps, with more 1v1 annihilation game types and some new compelling win conditions.

-6v6: I know this might not be the focus of this thread, but 6v6 still seems far to limiting in terms of utility and skill over build. At this point I'm sure most sensible players have realized that 6v6 was a bad move, so please reinstate 8v8 and make any forthcoming changes with this as the basis. Please do not simply reinstate 8v8 without mechanic, game play or win condition changes! These changes are a step in the right direction, please create them with 8v8 in mind.

Katina · Jan 24, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Russian Goddess Katina's feedback.
Yes, it is the most important input because lets face it, I'm all that matters.

Map Changes: I like burial mounds being brought back. The two 1v1 Maps is better than having you jump from a 1v1 straight to a Mini HoH type map (Broken Tower). My only problem is that either way, a team is going to be ganked. It's still unfair to a team in the map.

I wish for Broken Tower to go back to being 1v1 because it gives EVERYONE a fair chance to progress onto the next map. A team was ALWAYS ganked this weekend, and any team, good or bad, no matter who is on it, will lose 12v6. And most of the time, the good team will be the one ganged up on.

Plus you're putting this new Broken Tower WAY too early, seeing how it is almost exactly simular to HoH, with one winning condition less. I don't understand how you go from this 3 way alter map and then go back to a 1v1 map, such as Dark Chambers.

6v6- Absolutely HORRIBLE idea to keep it this way. You ruined Halls and there are plenty of people to back that up. You ruined halls by 6v6 and having the heroes. You fixed the heroes, so when are you going to fix the 8v8? Stop listening to the PvE shits and change it back to 8v8.

You're fixing something in the first place that was never broken. You're ruining your own game. You have so many complaints about 6v6 and you ALWAYS did. So own up to your mistakes and have courage instead of hiding around your BS. Fix the mistake you caused.

-Katina
Xo Xo

Klenn · Jan 24, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

My only concern with the new/test HA mechanics is that on the kill-points maps it's too easy for say a team with major AoE to steal kills from say a team with major degen/pressure. This issue is only present because there are 3+ teams. My solution is

- Revert these maps back to their original form
- Add new map(s) with the new kill-points system BUT with only 2 teams on the map

I like the idea of the kill-points maps, and it's fun, but it's not fair with 3+ teams IMO, and maps like courtyard would be weird with only 2 teams ( probably just because I'm used to playing courtyard with 3 teams all the time, but still...

)

On the other hand, perhaps it's intended that certain types of builds are just better for certain maps?

In any case, I'm eager to see what the decisions will be.

Lord Hares · Jan 24, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

first of all english is not my main language so you'll prolly find a lot of mistake in my post

My opignion on change.

The return of Burial 1vs1 without the possibility to run like pro drok runner is indeed nice. But at this point why don't make scarred 1vs1 too ?
New maps are needed, instead of mod the conditions of maps who where designed for something else why don't just make new maps well designed and more 'fun'. Imo the best example is the HoH map as relic run. If all teams know what to do, you'll never run a relic, cause stairs are gg to bodyblock (enjoy the 3el earth*2teams)

If you want to make more variety in HA, just add more maps and a random pool of maps at some points.

Example : zaishen, UW, Burial, <a random map of a pool of 3>, Scarred, Temples, Dark Chambers,Courtyard, <a random map of a pool of 3>, maybe 1 last 1vs1 map, HoH

Now about the 'new' victory conditions, do an arena HA is not the best thing you can do.

2 examples :

Kill Count -> in arena you always 1vs1 so you sure noone will 'steal' 'your kill' so you can run whatever build you want. In a 1vs1vs1, you must run a spike or a mass aoe dmg build (did you find a degen build this week-end ?)
Murderball -> can be fun but must be on a well design Murderball map. As i've already said hoh map imo is not well designed for it

About the new HoH chest, it's nice to see finally something balanced

(no more 2*drops for you and nothing for me

)

About skill balance : You have a lot of work to do about it BUT, and it's a very personnal opignion, first fix your mind about the maps/conditions of victory and then adapt some skills cause nerf/boost skills who are not used anymore is useless for pvp (but maybe for pve farmer addict it is

).

Team size : i'm pro 8vs8

vapor311 · Jan 24, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

My opinion on the test event:

Burial Mounds - Nice to see it's return

Broken Tower - If any map deserves to stay with Kill Count, broken tower is it. I also believe that it should stay 3-way. Two way Kill count is dumb, but there has to be a better algorithm designed to credit who the kill goes to. Something perhaps along the lines of total damage received irregardless of when the damage was done. Honestly I don't know.

Scarred Earth - Glad to see it go personally

Courtyard - I believe that only one map should have to have the Kill Count dynamic. I would keep Courtyard at the traditional 3 way alter cap. Alter capping KotH is not a bad game type but when it accounts for 33% of the maps, people will design builds to abuse the mechanic. It's the nature of the beast.

Hall of Heroes - I love the idea of the random victory conditions. I would however add an alter capping match in there and remove the Murder Ball. The Hall of Heroes map was just not designed with a relic running game format in mind. I do like the changes to the Chest behavior as well.

With that said I also want to comment on the party size, if only for the mere fact that I'm hoping that the idea will get passed on to someone in the decision making process. Six vs six will never be a success for Heroes Ascent. The existing maps were not designed for six people party sizes. Quite a bit of thought and care went into the original map designs. The modifications that are being made just further pervert what was originally intended. Continually applying band-aids to the problem will not make it go away. A choice has to be made as to what HA should be. If you want a 6 man arena type, make a 6 man arena type. Design and build map objectives that play well for six on six. Stop modifying the maps that were designed for 8 on 8 play to work for 6 on 6. It's not working.
If however, a move to a 6 on 6 arena was made to artificially increase the number of teams playing, then fix that problem. Address the reasons why players aren't playing HA instead of using artificial means to rig the tournament (ie making party sizes smaller and removing maps).

Liveundead122 · Jan 25, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

im glad burial mounds is back

kill count idea is awesome but should only be for one map

6v6 should stay. it makes ha unique to pvp. it also keeps gvg fresh.

anets doing an awesome job. the fact that time is being spent to make a FREE game more exciting for its players is un heard of. regardless of what is done, ill probably adapt and play no matter what so go nuts in the changes. ill still be happy with the game.

other people should quit complaining.

Patrograd · Jan 25, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

I liked the removal of the silly holding builds. No altar capping is good for the game imo

Broken tower was pretty silly though. needs a change to the way the winner is decided. I think it would be better with the kill count RA mechanic myself. got a bit fed up of chasing teams around after a while

phasola · Jan 25, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

8v8 plx. That is all.

Cloud5646 · Jan 25, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I loved the kill count mechanic it definatily welcome assassins to HA, please keep it!

Lorekeeper · Jan 26, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

---- HA weekend dominated by around 3 builds... not my idea of different and diverse builds... why couldnt i run a condition or hex build? Well... they cant compete in kill count matches because they cant match the direct dps potential of builds like grenthsway. Builds with grenth dervish enjoyed way too much success over the weekend.... further highlighting the need for balancing of this avatar... please! Its making a mockery of top level pvp.

---- Murderball is an absolute mess, ive never seen such a massive amount of aoe dmg focused in such a small area before. Is it possible to get someone safely through multiple snares (ward foes, cripple, water hexes) while being nuked by the combined offense of 2 opposing teams? Dont forget we only have room for 2 monks! And taking into consideration the horrible energy management available to monks after the inspiration line destruction... i just cant see how this mode can work... the HOH map has 3 narrow corridors, easily blocked by 3 players and gets flooded by ward against foes.... running a relic within 60 seconds is nigh on impossible. Most of the time the runner wont even reach the stairs before the allied monks run out of energy to keep healing. All you need to do is bring snares and huge dps and no relic runner will get through... good thing that bringing snares and high dps are now the only requirements to win HA maps.

---- 1st possible solution is to remove the time limit on running the relic at least giving us a chance to get through all the snares... then the monks can worry about keeping the relic runners alive.
---- 2nd possible solution is for there to be 3 relics available for capture 1 for each team (imo would introduce some very interesting tactics)

---- 3 way kill count with 10% dmg bonus... grenth dervish heaven... bonus does not benefit degen teams... matches would result in the better teams ganking the weakest team in terms of defense in order to rack up kills. Or if a famous HA guild or GvG guild was present... they would get ganked.... 12vs6? gg no thank you...

---- possible solution: make broken tower 2 team instead of 3, change the altar bonus. Health boost + energy boost is universal. Dmg bonus dependent on type is not universal enough. The map has an altar... it needs to provide the focal point for the battle... otherwise theres no need for this map anymore. Surely a kill count mechanic would be suited to a more open battlefield?

---- reinstate holding mechanic... however... keep alliance battle style capping mechanic. Party members must be near the altar in order to count towards the capping.
---- Put death penalty back.
---- Holding team gets 10% boosts every 2 minutes. In order to kick a team off the altar... you either make them back away from the altar and out of nearby range... allowing your team to begin overcapping... like in Alliance battles OR you can kill off the players on the holding team. Heros near the altar contribute 4 pips. Placing the hero on the altar allows hero to claim a bonus built into the altar. This should be extra health and energy. If nearby range is too small... make it within the area of the altar... or just make it aggro bubble range, but that might be too large. This means a stalemate will occur at the start of battle... since all teams will move within capping range. What happens after this is the interesting thing... teams will have to try to push opposing teams away from the altar or to fully engage and kill these opposing teams. However.... with not just 1 but 2 other teams... things might get a little chaotic and risky if you act as the aggressor.
(not sure whether this will work better as a 2 team fight of a 3 team fight)
-- before any sort of holding mechanism is reintroduced the skill ''song of concentration'' needs to be changed so that it does not effect the ghostly hero and claim resource.
-- Also... a proper analysis of the strength of 'holding' builds needs to be carried out and skill balance done in order to prevent these kinds of builds dominating altar matches.
-- In contradiction to the above point, in an ideal HA meta... the map rotation should act as the most significant balancer of builds. Holding builds would obviously hold advantage on altar holding matches but on maps that require mobility, split tactics and ability to wipe out enemy teams these kinds of builds might not have much success. And so hopefully people would not run them due to them being a 'one hit wonder' type of build.

---- burial mounds, great map however, im sick of fighting spirit spamming builds who camp their rez shrine base and refuse to leave. This results in a waiting game in which time is wasted and teams opt to resign rather than wait to see if the camping team comes out of the base. More needs to be done to provide an equal battlefield for 1 vs 1 and not provide such a defensive opportunity.

---- suggestion 1, introduce vod mechanic where after 8-10min the priests leave the rez shrine and make their way towards the obelisk altar. Have the priest move about 5-10 steps every minute after the 8-10min mark. As per usual killing the priest disables the rez shrine.
---- suggestion 2, i would be prepared to wait and see if the new 'diversity' required in HA will settle into a meta where these defensive builds arent run anymore. It is very difficult to judge the meta on a 2 day event... so maybe my fear of spirit spamming jagged bones teams will be unfounded in the future. Even pre-test weekend HA was dominated by the jagged bones builds... regardless of the relic run maps which i would normally think would help weed them out... obviously not.

---- capture the point in HOH is an interesting addition... encouraging split style tactics and a move away from mindless killing. Very good concept. Only concern i have is that the HOH map is not ideal for this type of play. Interestingly enough... the Vault map looks IDEAL for sector control type conditions. Now THAT would be awesome.... truly awesome.

one thing i really must insist on... is the skill update. Please, pretty please can you finalise and implement a skill balance update separate to the HA updates.... i just cant take GvG seriously atm and wont be able to until i am able to create builds without worrying about them being obsolete after the update.

last point i have to make is that i am very glad that you guys at anet have given the HA community this chance to test things in game. And even more thankful that you are showing the willingness to hear our feedback. I hope that my evaluations have helped in some way. Im looking forward to the next set of tests... or indeed if you are ready... to the full update.

conjurer · Jan 26, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

I would like to have 8v8 again, more than anything in this game, but for that anet should reballance alot of things, like many many nf skills, I'm not sure they will do it. (to avoid insane holding spikes with paragons)

byggryn10 · Jan 28, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Burial --- Love that its back. There were way too few 1v1 team formats before

Scarred--- Good riddence. Ppl hated this map when you could get 4 fame under the old format and before the levers. ALWAYS hated this map.

Others--- I liked the rotation in HoH. Now pure hold teams can east my shorts (you heard me 6 man monk spike). The death count maps I found less to my liking. 10 minutes seemed like an age. And the stratedgy was.......pray NOT to be the team that got ganked by the other two. Cap early...get ganked. Kill to fast and get a lead...get ganked. Have a tag that others recognized...you get the pattern. Under that format I'd like to see a timer of more like 6 minutes and perhaps just two teams.

Pushing Up Daisies

Yu Liang · Jan 28, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Burial Mounds - Bring it back to 6 teams glory! Man those old days were fun.

Broken Tower/Courtyard - Timer was too long imo. After about 6 minutes the winner had been decided and people were leaving. Maybe keep one as the traditional Altar Map?

Hall of Heroes - Brilliant, I absolutely love Murder Ball ^^ - It's great fun. Come to think of it I love all the HoH Scenarios.

Skill Changes - OK, but not "the skill change to end all skill changes" I expected.

As for people saying "welcome in more new people" - I really don't see how that's ArenaNet's problem or how they can fix it. It's people's attitudes that need to change for that to happen.

Randvek · Jan 29, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by byggryn10

Burial --- Love that its back. There were way too few 1v1 team formats before

Scarred--- Good riddence. Ppl hated this map when you could get 4 fame under the old format and before the levers. ALWAYS hated this map.

Others--- I liked the rotation in HoH. Now pure hold teams can east my shorts (you heard me 6 man monk spike). The death count maps I found less to my liking. 10 minutes seemed like an age. And the stratedgy was.......pray NOT to be the team that got ganked by the other two. Cap early...get ganked. Kill to fast and get a lead...get ganked. Have a tag that others recognized...you get the pattern. Under that format I'd like to see a timer of more like 6 minutes and perhaps just two teams.

I am quoting your post because I agree 100% with everything you said. I like the idea behind the kill count maps, I really do, but 10 minutes is far too long, and being the team ganked is brutal. Keep it to an even number of teams, shorten the time, and it would definitely be worth a second try.

All in all, a good weekend.

Gaile Gray · Jan 29, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randvek

I am quoting your post because I agree 100% with everything you said. I like the idea behind the kill count maps, I really do, but 10 minutes is far too long, and being the team ganked is brutal. Keep it to an even number of teams, shorten the time, and it would definitely be worth a second try. All in all, a good weekend.

We agree with you: 10 minutes just wasn't practical. You'll see some differences that you can assess soon, and we hope you'll let us know how it seems in the next trial.

Maiyn · Jan 29, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

I thought the changes were a lot of fun.

Keeping a ghostly hero alive with two teams ganking him and you and your monk partner was/is completely insane, so I was very happy to see the capping requirement gone.. This new method is extremely interesting.

I do wonder if that fear me stuff or the spirit / minion thing would only be worse under 8v8 conditions. I know a lot of people have brought this up already... still don't know about team size.

I wonder is the actual hall of heros map really properly designed for some of those changed? Body blocking is EXTREMELY easy on that one Just a comment really.

Still really hoping for some sort of vod mechanism, and new maps. Really happy with anet for trying to fix the pvp problems, because that is really where GW shines in the gaming world atm.

Take my comments with some skepticism, I had not played tombs very much at all since that double fame weeked.

I am definitely a casual halls player, but I am an experienced casual player!

Hirum · Jan 31, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I think alot of these changes were excellent concepts, but there are still some balance issues that just cant be addressed with current HA settings.

The purpose of Heroes ascent is to work through different maps, that require different strategies and concepts, ultimately bringing you to the final challenge, The Hall of Heroes.

There are a few challenge settings currently in HA. Each requires more of a certain aspect from each team:

Altar matches require team endurance and defensive coordination. But if you dont have a proper offensive strategy to defeat the current holding team, then you dont have a chance. Teams must also determine at what time and when they should attack or cap the altar.

Relic runs require more team coordination than any of the matches in my opinion, this is why holding builds are very innefective against balanced teams in these settings.

Multiplayer requires you to not only defeat one team in a 1vs1 setting, but carry over and defeat another team. You gain advantages if your team is done first because you can push through and gauge the next team you are to face. You also gain slight advantages if you cap flagstands, and you get a very nice advantage if you rush on a team that has just collapsed another while they are still in a recovery postion.

I think the current situation in halls is not demanding alot of of different strategies from each team. You can play a holding build with little offensive strategy or team coordination and win The Hall of Heroes based completely on your defensive capability with huge energy gains for huge healing spells(spirit spamming, minions), or by creating a build that has a huge array of defensive skills and one massive spike that will eliminate a ghost after a 2 minute time marker promising the win(mystic wrath, ele heavy builds, healing ball).

Of course one build is going to be better at a map than another build. But instead of creating maps such as murderball where its, "who can kill the most stuff", make it "who can coordinate offense, defense, and pvp strategy better than any other team in the arena".

Bring back the Vault!! If you have not completed atleast one relic run, one multiplayer, one 1vs1, and one alter match, then you dont go into halls! Make each team prove that they are skilled, well rounded, and worthy of fame! Increase the fame recieved for winning an alter match, and make the ghost ressurect every 30 seconds without penalty of death! If your going to have a 3 minute match, you shouldnt be able to eliminate a team at 2 minutes!