Curse

KCCH · Feb 18, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

The 8vs8 week is almost over,cant say i am sorry for that,mainly for the hours it takes to form a party (1,5-2 hours forming has become not uncommon),and now i remember why i stopped ha for a while when it was still 8vs8,to most other changes (buildwise)it brought about, it is possible to adjust ,to a degree.

Looking around in my own guild(25 active ppl)AMp,a pure r8/9 ha-guild i see ppl hanging around in the guildhall, just not coming online or even doing pve,just being put off by the time it takes making a party and the fact that when you finally put one together ,1 or 2 ppl have to go or can make at best 1 run, due to the 1-2 hour wait.
If you played ha 6 hours a day the wait is 4 hours now and maybe 1,5 to 2 hours actual playing ,at best!

If Anet wanted ppl to come up with some new inventive builds they took a strange road,just a regular skillbalace will do the trick, without the annoying,wearing ppl down ,8 man team forming hours.(and besides that,ha being, 2vs2 or 25vs25, only higher ranked groups will try new builds,most below r9/10 will just find a proven build and play that)

The argument ,given on some fansites,that 8vs8 would bring more builds in ha doesnt hold up and never will in my opinion,even be4 they made it 6vs6 there were gimmick-builds(vimway,bspike,iway etc.)and there will always be ,party-size wont change that(wether it is 2vs2 or 25vs25).

I was speaking to a friend of mine who is in a simmilar guild as i am, earlier this week and he held a little poll in his guild with the outcome that 90% didnt want 8vs8 back(on our own forum its 11 votes-10 for 6vs6 and 1 for 8vs8),but told me also that on some german fora 70% wanted 8vs8 back.I my view those 70% must have spent, at least this week, more time on fora then actually ingame in ha.(I will always be amazed how the opinion on the fora are always that far off from what most actual ha-players want.)

Another thing is that now-a-days-lots of top-gvg-guilds do well in ha again,not surprisingly cause it is gvg in a different setting and with some other goals now.
I even saw a thread here by some guy saying that was the main reason why he liked 8vs8 in ha and wanted to keep it 8vs8, so you could practice your gvgbuilds in ha..what is that about..do we now have to have a complete map just so ppl can test their gvgbuilds?????????????Go find a nice gvg-alliance and practice testbuilds with your alliance.Why must all pvp be about gvg?Some just like ha or ta..then make ta 8vs8 too!

I`d say keep 8vs8 for gvg,4vs4 for ra&ta and,you guessed it,6vs6 for ha! Shocked

Vermilion · Feb 18, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCCH

I even saw a thread here by some guy saying that was the main reason why he liked 8vs8 in ha and wanted to keep it 8vs8, so you could practice your gvgbuilds in ha..what is that about..do we now have to have a complete map just so ppl can test their gvgbuilds?????????????Go find a nice gvg-alliance and practice testbuilds with your alliance.Why must all pvp be about gvg?Some just like ha or ta..then make ta 8vs8 too!

I`d say keep 8vs8 for gvg,4vs4 for ra&ta and,you guessed it,6vs6 for ha! Shocked

Funny, because this is the kind of opinion Ive seen on all the hardcore HAers.

Has the change from 4v4 to 8v8 been a problem? That seems to be pointed out a lot by 6v6 supporters after all. I didn't find the change that difficult, and if it was, it would be mostly due to the change in mechanics and skill level.

C2K · Feb 18, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

6v6, heroway, and now kill count are what killed HA, with a little bit of never ever seeing new maps too.

HA died when people were able to farm up to r9+ within weeks with IWAY. It created a sense of security for players who knew how to press "T" and never had to worry about anything in a tactical sense.

Furthermore, it destroyed creativity in creating HA builds. I'm not saying gimmick builds are without their merit, but players see gimmick builds and say "OMG I can't win!! b0rken!!" and then come to the conclusion that the only way to beat the build is to play the build.

This is not everyone of course. I've seen some killer guild teams with great teamwork rock HA. There are even quite a few PuGs that have been impressive over the past years.

The problem is there are HAers that want to farm HA in a manner that a PvE player wants to solo farm UW.

CR3AT0R · Feb 18, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Bring back 6v6
6v6= Less pugging, less shitspike.

Vermilion · Feb 18, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by CR3AT0R

Bring back 6v6
6v6= Less pugging

Is this part a joke? Pugging is a good thing. -.-

Canius · Feb 18, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

8v8 supporter..........
Though I would like to see restrictions such as no more than 2 of any primary Class per team....but spikers...bah....nothing when they're rushed right

Randomway Ftw · Feb 18, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

no more of 2 primary class per team is an incredibly stupid idea, it will unfairly limit creativity in builds, but it will still be easy to make a spike gimmick, or other type of gimmick. (for example iway will just swap a warrior for dervish and laugh)

And one more thing: Kill Count = FTL, Altar Holding = FTW

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I don't think I'd mind a kill count on a map--Broken Tower should definately be reverted to a holding map but I wouldn't mind a killing spree on Courtyard, or maybe even in the Halls rotation. For the life of me I cannot begin to understand why Kill Count was eliminated from Halls alone--if it needs to be removed from any map it's Broken Tower, hands down.

In my opinion the game format that really needs to die a violent death is capture points. If I wanted to play capture points I'd go AB, and there's a reason that I don't: because it sucks. Capture point games are invariably wild, haphazard matches with little more strategy than "Run over here! OK now run over there! Stand there for a minute! Bring the Ghost!" etc. The improved Murderball is a bit more interesting than the old one, and I do kind of like the idea of alternating victory conditions in Halls.

I think i see it totally opposite.

Broken Tower SHOULDN'T be kill count, but it SHOULDN'T be a freaking holding map either. Did you forget that Broken Tower was always whoever caps first wins when it was holding HoH? Broken Tower being a holding map would favor heaviliy defensive builds just like before. Holding maps, just like kill count, severly encourage gimmicks. Because the objective are too simplistic. 1 is to just STAY ALIVE, in which case you pack as much defense as possible. And the other is just to kill, in which case you pack as much spike as possible. And honestly, spike builds are often the builds that are the best as packing tons of defense cause all they need is 1-2 offensive skill per char and at the same time they're the best in kill counts cause they spike a lot.

Holding AND kill count both encourage spike builds in general. Especially with Song of Concentration existing (not sure i'd want it nerfed in any way though). It doesn't mean other builds aren't viable, but it encourages them.

On the other hand, there is ONE format (our of pure death match) that encourages build versatility and discourages gimmicks, and it's... capture point. Why? Because your build need to be able to split, to fight in different groups, etc. Saying that it's just wild running around with no strategy can't really give me any impression other than that you didn't grasp capture point maps tactics at all. Because those maps require if anything much more complex tactics considering you have to be able to keep points as much as possible while taking out enemy teams or capture squads to prevent the same while taking care of Ghostly Hero and making good use of him too... If there's one map i'd seriously like to see as a Broken Tower map, it's capture points. Not because it's AB, i don't give a damn about AB (i think it'd be great if you could actually choose your team, but you can't and so it sucks out of messing around). If it was in Broken Tower and people got to play it, maybe they'd realize after playing it repeatedly that certain strategies win and others don't and that your skill in applying those tactics is what matters the most in this game type. And imo a map encouraging tactics such as splitting and skirmishing requires MUCH more tactical depth and encourages better teams much more than when your objective is 'stay alive' or 'spike a lot'.

KCCH · Feb 19, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

Funny, because this is the kind of opinion Ive seen on all the hardcore HAers.

Has the change from 4v4 to 8v8 been a problem? That seems to be pointed out a lot by 6v6 supporters after all. I didn't find the change that difficult, and if it was, it would be mostly due to the change in mechanics and skill level.

Assuming you mean change from 6vs6 to 8vs8,then yes its a big problem;but as clearly stated not skill or mechanicswise,all that can be adjusted too, but party-forming wise(ha should be dynamic and fairly quick to form a party ,Anet itself states that they know how hard it is to find and schedule 8 ppl for gvg,why make it equally hard for ha?),although i dont see Anet making itself very credible when changing HA form 8vs8 to 6vs6 to 8vs8 to 6vs6 to 8vs8 etc.,and as said i dont get the point of all maps having to be about gvg,why then not make ta and ra 8vs8 too?Again,and this is my personal view,i think Anet hit the jackpot with the format of ta :4vs4,ha:6vs6 and gvg: 8vs8

LifesRestorer · Feb 19, 2007, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCCH

I even saw a thread here by some guy saying that was the main reason why he liked 8vs8 in ha and wanted to keep it 8vs8, so you could practice your gvgbuilds in ha..what is that about..do we now have to have a complete map just so ppl can test their gvgbuilds?????????????Go find a nice gvg-alliance and practice testbuilds with your alliance.Why must all pvp be about gvg?Some just like ha or ta..then make ta 8vs8 too!

I`d say keep 8vs8 for gvg,4vs4 for ra&ta and,you guessed it,6vs6 for ha! Shocked

a man who tests his GvG build in HA is stupid. it's a completely different metagame, and once again, those who are trying to compare GvG and HA 8v8 wise simply don't understand the mechanics of the game.

this game was not built for a balance of a 6v6 team. Notice how all the pvp arenas in this game go up in 4's. TA/RA = 4, HA/GvG = 8, AB/Fort Aspenwood = 12

inplacing a 6v6 will make it unbalanced, and the only way to be able to change this is a skill balance, which will probably result in GvG/TA being unbalanced.

HA to the OLD 8v8 please.

axe · Feb 19, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCCH

The 8vs8 week is almost over,cant say i am sorry for that,mainly for the hours it takes to form a party (1,5-2 hours forming has become not uncommon),and now i remember why i stopped ha for a while when it was still 8vs8,to most other changes (buildwise)it brought about, it is possible to adjust ,to a degree.

Looking around in my own guild(25 active ppl)AMp,a pure r8/9 ha-guild i see ppl hanging around in the guildhall, just not coming online or even doing pve,just being put off by the time it takes making a party and the fact that when you finally put one together ,1 or 2 ppl have to go or can make at best 1 run, due to the 1-2 hour wait.
If you played ha 6 hours a day the wait is 4 hours now and maybe 1,5 to 2 hours actual playing ,at best!

If Anet wanted ppl to come up with some new inventive builds they took a strange road,just a regular skillbalace will do the trick, without the annoying,wearing ppl down ,8 man team forming hours.(and besides that,ha being, 2vs2 or 25vs25, only higher ranked groups will try new builds,most below r9/10 will just find a proven build and play that)

The argument ,given on some fansites,that 8vs8 would bring more builds in ha doesnt hold up and never will in my opinion,even be4 they made it 6vs6 there were gimmick-builds(vimway,bspike,iway etc.)and there will always be ,party-size wont change that(wether it is 2vs2 or 25vs25).

All the wait time to for a non-spike build, the whole "didnt make inventive builds" argument, and your R8/9 active guildies not playing quite simply was because of Kill Count maps in 8v8. It rewarded spike builds and alot of good teams simply couldnt make it past Broken Tower consistantly if they werent running a spike build.

Also Im a little bummed that they had a holiday festival during the 8v8 time period. I really do not think 8v8 was given a fair chance.

Also the first day that 8v8 came back (before everyone and their mom was running spike) there were TONS of people, and I believe that those people WOULD be regulars of HA if the kill count was removed, or something was done about the spike builds.

Alleji · Feb 19, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

Also Im a little bummed that they had a holiday festival during the 8v8 time period. I really do not think 8v8 was given a fair chance.

8v8 wasn't given a fair chance because it wasn't old 8v8. It was 8v8 with objectives (poorly) designed for 6v6.

I don't even know why you're bringing the festival into this. It sucked anyway. If anet gave PvPers a good PvP event, they'd be doing exactly that and not farming mini-pigs or whatever.

On a different note, wasn't 8v8 supposed to end on friday? 3 days ago?

Master Ketsu · Feb 19, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

a man who tests his GvG build in HA is stupid. it's a completely different metagame, and once again, those who are trying to compare GvG and HA 8v8 wise simply don't understand the mechanics of the game.

this game was not built for a balance of a 6v6 team. Notice how all the pvp arenas in this game go up in 4's. TA/RA = 4, HA/GvG = 8, AB/Fort Aspenwood = 12

inplacing a 6v6 will make it unbalanced, and the only way to be able to change this is a skill balance, which will probably result in GvG/TA being unbalanced.

HA to the OLD 8v8 please.

Quoted for truth. Its extremely hard to balance skills without making them unblanced in other situations.

Even now certain skills are overpowered in certain arenas while being fairly balanced in others ( Example: Zealous Benediction, Weapon of Remedy, two skills that are well balanced in 8v8 but overpowered in 4v4 )

I support making a class restriction on HA. Anet should run a test weekend where you are not allowed to have more then 4 of the same class in a team. There will still be gimmicks, but at least we wont have 8paragons, 6rits ,8 necro teams anymore that are so uncreative they make your eyes bleed.

kidkid · Feb 19, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I am currently rank 8, I have been through all the iway, bspike, everything u named 8 v 8, 6 v 6, and til now. HA with 8 v 8 plus this system isn't as good as the 6 v 6, everyone just spike for the kill count, no skills involved at all. I am not saying i am very experience about HA. BUT the recent change of HA isn't a good idea. 6 v 6 takes more skills in my own opinion. I hope 6 v 6 can come back. We already have 8 v 8 gvg, so i think HA should stay 6 v 6. HA will die away if 6 v 6 doesn't come back. Please change back to 6 v 6 Anet, thank you.

ksalanpang · Feb 19, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Quoted for truth. Its extremely hard to balance skills without making them unblanced in other situations.

Even now certain skills are overpowered in certain arenas while being fairly balanced in others ( Example: Zealous Benediction, Weapon of Remedy, two skills that are well balanced in 8v8 but overpowered in 4v4 )

I support making a class restriction on HA. Anet should run a test weekend where you are not allowed to have more then 4 of the same class in a team. There will still be gimmicks, but at least we wont have 8paragons, 6rits ,8 necro teams anymore that are so uncreative they make your eyes bleed.

then should anet ban ppl from running those aoe balanced builds with 2 a/w, 2 ele, 3 monks?

Experienced guilds/players know that every builds have its own weaknesses. With the right timing and enough patience. You can take down those builds. But like I said many times, kill counts could stop this from happening.

Mental Leteci · Feb 19, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidkid

We already have 8 v 8 gvg, so i think HA should stay 6 v 6.

This is the thinking of a noob. You can't compare HA with GvG, ok? I know some people who spent their whole time playing HA and only HA and probably suggested to others how good PvP is (by this I mean HA, not GvG) and that they should buy the game too, but then ANet takes something that has been here since the game was launched? What the hell? Why would people spend their time playing something just so they could disappoint in the end and not be able to sell the game now because everyone heard what shit it turned into. Luckily I've predicted this so I got away with it.

God Apprentice · Feb 19, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

HA died when people were able to farm up to r9+ within weeks with IWAY. It created a sense of security for players who knew how to press "T" and never had to worry about anything in a tactical sense.

Furthermore, it destroyed creativity in creating HA builds. I'm not saying gimmick builds are without their merit, but players see gimmick builds and say "OMG I can't win!! b0rken!!" and then come to the conclusion that the only way to beat the build is to play the build.

This is not everyone of course. I've seen some killer guild teams with great teamwork rock HA. There are even quite a few PuGs that have been impressive over the past years.

The problem is there are HAers that want to farm HA in a manner that a PvE player wants to solo farm UW.

Very much true. There is no variety because everyone wants to run Ritspike, and they do not change to another build until a new fotm is invented

Master Ketsu · Feb 19, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksalanpang

then should anet ban ppl from running those aoe balanced builds with 2 a/w, 2 ele, 3 monks?

Experienced guilds/players know that every builds have its own weaknesses. With the right timing and enough patience. You can take down those builds. But like I said many times, kill counts could stop this from happening.

No No No, Im not complaining about 8(whatever)way being overpowered. they are just too uncreative. Players need to learn that the same thing they would want accomplished by 6 rits can be accomplished by 4 rits, and two E/rt, if they spent time planning it out.

its the same secondary reason Magic THe Gathering ( which GW is loosely based off of ) Only allows 4 of the same card. While some cards really wouldnt be overpowered if you could have a crapload of them, its just plain uncreative and encourages cookie cutters due to simplicity.

ksalanpang · Feb 19, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

No No No, Im not complaining about 8(whatever)way being overpowered. they are just too uncreative. Players need to learn that the same thing they would want accomplished by 6 rits can be accomplished by 4 rits, and two E/rt, if they spent time planning it out.

its the same secondary reason Magic THe Gathering ( which GW is loosely based off of ) Only allows 4 of the same card. While some cards really wouldnt be overpowered if you could have a crapload of them, its just plain uncreative and encourages cookie cutters due to simplicity.

k got your point. I don't think that matters a whole lot still. Coz If your team (I assume guildies not pugs) know what exactly what they supposed to do, they could always foresee the spike and hopefully the infuser does his/her job to save whoever got spiked. And with a balanced team build (all-around), you could always find a way to counter them by disabling the other teams main defense. However with the current rules and changes, it's little hard to pull that out. It's still viable. It also matters to the composition of a balanced team. Also, one bad player on your team that's not doing his/her job can ruin the entire team too...that's why I don't pug unless I'm wanting it.

I like GVG better because of the tactics involved not solely because of the team build. Meh,..hope I could gvg soon when our guild doesn't suck that much.

Magic the Gathering was fun if you have money...lol coz you need to buy ownage cards

Anyways hope we all can make HA a better arena for all of us if possible!

DreamWind · Feb 20, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Screw this current crap HA metagame...just bring back holding altars and iway and lets get this show on the damn road. That was the last good metagame and HA has sucked ever since lets face it.