Curse

Kyune · Feb 15, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

With gale taken down a bit and the cast time on Gust reduced to one second, has any attempt been made at trying to incorporate the latter into their builds? And if not... would you consider bringing it if it had a 4sec knockdown a la Backbreaker (and probably a 10e cost to go with it)?

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 15, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

The weakness of the skill is the hex condition, not the KD length. Even with the new attractiveness of water hexes I wouldn't spend my elite on this. Better to bring Gale and have an unconditional KD that causes Exhaustion, as well as a free elite spot.

If you remove the hex condition the skill starts looking attractive compared to Gale. If that makes it too strong, give it a 15s recharge.

Riotgear · Feb 15, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

It's hard to make changes to it that'll justify running over it over the new, beefier Water Trident. If the hex conditionality was removed, you'd probably see it pop up on Mesmer bars, in addition to replacing Water Trident, and then it would probably be in the same situation as Gale, except arguably worse because you could spam much more. At 5e, you'd probably see warriors taking it too.

TLLOTS · Feb 15, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It's hard to make changes to it that'll justify running over it over the new, beefier Water Trident. If the hex conditionality was removed, you'd probably see it pop up on Mesmer bars, in addition to replacing Water Trident, and then it would probably be in the same situation as Gale, except arguably worse because you could spam much more. At 5e, you'd probably see warriors taking it too.

That's true, it certainly wouldn't be wise to simply drop the Water Hex requirement and call it balanced. However if it is ever going to see play that condition does need to be dropped, as it takes all the wonderful versatility of Gale and stomps it into the ground.

Kyune · Feb 16, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

The requirement itself is for a water or earth hex, and maybe that is in and of itself an issue and not so much the 'hex' part of it:

Of the 12 water hexes, 3 are elite and the nine left are A)Snares B)Rust C)Blurred Vision. Snares are the ones that see real play (some of them, anyways), and I'm relatively sure that snaring and KDing a single target is almost always simply redundant.

Which brings us to earth hexes: Stone Sheath, Iron Mist, and Grasping Earth.
The first is terrible, the condition on the second one is terrible, and I've seen the third played on dervishes with some gains, but in context with gust it's inappropriate to try to use the two in concert except maybe--and a big one at that-- on some kind of utility earth/* ele.

What about conditions though, particularly since they seem to be easily applied? I.E. New description for Gust: "Target foe is struck for 10...54 cold damage. If that foe is suffering from a condition, that foe is knocked down for 3 seconds."

Symbol · Feb 27, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Instead of making it a pumped up gale, why not change the functionality.

Gust
5e 3/4s 8r
Target foe is struck for 15...63...79 cold damage. If foe is attacking, moving, or activating a skill foe is knocked down for 1..3 seconds.

That way it would take some skill and investment in air to use effectively, but in the right hands it would be worth the elite slot.

Patccmoi · Feb 27, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Instead of making it a pumped up gale, why not change the functionality.

Gust
5e 3/4s 8r
Target foe is struck for 15...63...79 cold damage. If foe is attacking, moving, or activating a skill foe is knocked down for 1..3 seconds.

That way it would take some skill and investment in air to use effectively, but in the right hands it would be worth the elite slot.

So... people that don't get knocked down are people standing still doing nothing?

You should call it 'Wastrel's Paradise'...

Seriously though this version also seems way too good to me. I'd use it on warriors with 4 Air for 2s kd and be damn happy about it.

I don't dislike your idea as a whole though, but i'd remove the moving part. Making it knock people if they are attacking or activating a skill could be interesting. For moving targets, you have Water Trident.

I'd see it something like :

Gust
10e 3/4s 8r
Target foe is struck for 10...70...90 cold damage. If target foe is attacking or activating a skill he is knocked down for 1..3 seconds

Would still see use on Mesmers likely, but at 10E it'd be costy without Air Atunement. And it wouldn't allow for a 'Gale lock' since just moving wouldn't let you be knocked. It would be more of an interrupt that knocks with some damage, which seems decent for an elite skill. Damage is high enough to matter if you spec into Air and be worth it even if you don't knock your target.

Dunno, might be too good too, but seems more interesting.

Symbol · Feb 27, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

So... people that don't get knocked down are people standing still doing nothing?

Yeah, pretty much.

Quote:

Seriously though this version also seems way too good to me. I'd use it on warriors with 4 Air for 2s kd and be damn happy about it.

The breakpoint is supposed to be 8 air for a 2sec KD. Though that still isn't much to invest for a warrior. Perhaps bumping the cost to the 10e would prevent too much secondary abuse.

Quote:

I don't dislike your idea as a whole though, but i'd remove the moving part. Making it knock people if they are attacking or activating a skill could be interesting. For moving targets, you have Water Trident.

I thought about removing the "while moving" bit because it does seem too good in form I suggested. What about

Gust
10e, 1/4s, 10r
Target foe is struck for 20...68...84 cold damage. If target foe is attacking or activating a skill it is knocked down.

The KD doesn't scale, but it now activates fast enough to serve as a reliable all-purpose interrupt with a KD attached. That's definitely elite worthy IMO. The damage is non-trivial if you invest in air, so you could use it as a excellent spike assist, but it's not really high enough to be a spike threat by itself.

Patccmoi · Feb 27, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

I thought about .25s activation too but it seems kinda too good in a sense. It's like giving a really really good interrupt to Eles.

I mean, the skill would be fine and elite-worthy, the main question is should Eles have an interrupt as powerful as that? I felt that .75s activation at least limited it to some extent (only reliable on 2s cast skills for Eles, and for Mesmers it'd be decent but still hard for anything below 1s. You'd need 9-10 FC just to have .5s activation which, with latency, makes it still not that easy to nail 1s cast on reaction. Possible, but you need to be really babysitting the guy).

Phades · Feb 27, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

If any part of this skill is to change for the better, it really needs to not become yet another mesmer interupt that also happens to k/d someone. Otherwise it is similar to just asking for gale to get un-nerfed. To limit secondary abuse for something as strong as a nearly unconditional k/d effect and not possess exhaustion, it would have to be at least 15e if we are to observe the costs and effects of other k/d skills.

I do think the skill can change for the better, but what you guys are meshing together really sounds like a mesmer skill. The one change to it that makes the mesmer primary redundant, is making it a .25s cast time, but that just feels out of place for a elementalist skill currently and would feel too good on any physical damage dealer primary.

The skill should have a meaningful, but scaling knockdown time starting at 0s, to force a signifigant attribute investment to get a good knockdown time (Ether prism scaling for example). It could also have a conditional knockdown time bonus (1s?), if the target is suffering from a ele hex. The damage could be nudged slightly if the conditional hex trait is kept as well, or allow some other bonus effect if raising the k/d time is inappropiate, such as a short term snare, temporary AL adjustment (ally damage bonus), or something else. There are plenty of options to go for, rather than trying to make a "replacement" gale skill out of it. Doing that just reminds me of chain lightning nerfs, then later introducing invoke lightning.

Seef II · Feb 27, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

One thing: how's a 1 s knockdown work? Normally KDs are two seconds long.

Bump the recharge to 9~12, 2 s KD if hexed, 3 s if water/earth hex or something. 5e is really one of the better parts of this spell. Of course, running it on some W/E with stonefists and a hex team breaks the 2 s limitation.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 27, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I'd like to lean away from the 'powerful skill held in check by gimmicky condition' line of balancing, which is why I'd want to see the hex part removed entirely. Making it require a condition might be more interesting, since most air eles already carry spammable Blind or Weakness, but most mesmers don't.

Basically, if you make the skill only good when used with elementalist hexes, you end up having to base a lot of your character build around making this one skill work. In short, it becomes yet another gimmicky skill that's decent to overpowered on an air/water hybrid, but completely useless everywhere else. Balancing overpowered skills around difficult to meet conditions is why Gust and the rest of Factions sucked - there's no need to repeat Arenanet's mistakes by doing the same thing here.

Riotgear · Feb 27, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

The ideal targets for Gust's effect are the exact opposite targets as the ones that typically meet the conditions. The only way to make it better than Water Trident is to make it able to knock down monks that are doing nothing, unless the effect is changed (I like skill disables, how about you?)

I think I'm out of real ideas on how to improve it though. A good starting point would be to ask what role it was supposed to fill, but I think that role was being able to get 3-sec knockdowns without exhaustion (as if that was stopping anyone). So maybe the best thing to do is just let it rot.

Phades · Feb 28, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Making it require a condition might be more interesting, since most air eles already carry spammable Blind or Weakness, but most mesmers don't.

Yeah, but their spike target is going to get hammered with at least deepwound, if not more conditions just making the skill even more of a mesmer spike assist skill due to fast casting, instead of a flexable elementalist tool. Elementalist applied conditions are shorter duration or higher priority in removal as well, so even though they are easier to apply i have my reservations about if it would be a more favorable mechanic to use.

Kyune · Feb 28, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Yeah, but their spike target is going to get hammered with at least deepwound, if not more conditions just making the skill even more of a mesmer spike assist skill due to fast casting, instead of a flexable elementalist tool. Elementalist applied conditions are shorter duration or higher priority in removal as well, so even though they are easier to apply i have my reservations about if it would be a more favorable mechanic to use.

Edit: About a favorable mechanic...After seeing what discord has become, getting a condition seems like cake.

What I want to say is that because Gust is an elite that the issue is lessened, but it really isn't (pre-nerf Blinding Surge). Mesmers are just that much better at using an elementalist's skills.

In lieu of that, how about this? Move the skill to the Energy Storage line, and change the skill as follows:

Rename "Gust" to "Glyph of Tempestuous Wind". 5e, 1s cast, 15s recharge.

New Description: "Glyph. For 15 seconds, if the next spell you cast is an Air Magic spell, it deals an additional 10...54 damage and if that foe is suffering from a condition, that foe is knocked down for 2...3 seconds."

The additional damage would trigger separately, akin to life stealing and conjure element damage bonuses. (We don't want it stacking with armor penetration effects). As for the KD breakpoint, probably at least 10 energy storage and if lower, there shouldn't be a way to knock it up to 4s.

As for the net effect, it does further create a compacted damage situation, which isn't necessarily a great thing. However, this means 1.75s preparation. Furthermore, getting a knockdown on a target isn't completely arbitrary, though I could see it being used with enervating charge or possibly blinding flash in order to instantly meet the condition for a knockdown. Brute usage gets expensive fast though, as there is no elite energy management to power it. Rather, the skill (ideally) shines in a team situation where the elementalist can rely on someone else to drop conditions on an enemy. And finally, because it is based in energy storage, the benefit that a secondary (mesmer) would get is minimal.

The main argument that I'd have against this skill is that even though it can be used to buff any individual spell in the line, it's guaranteed to be tacked on the end of a lightning orb or something spiky for cheap gains.

In-game we see energy storage represented as having higher energy pools, but I think perhaps that could be expanded upon and hence the suggested new form/name for the skill. I know it's radical, but even if it isn't liked I'm hoping the idea will stimulate other ideas for something we can use to make the skill workable.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 28, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Having a glyph that adds 50+ damage to any air magic skill is just asking for abuse in 321spike builds.

Zui · Feb 28, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Kyune, I like the idea - It's great! Glyph of Tempestuous Wind should read "For 15 seconds, the next spell you would cast that deals lightning damage deals an additional 10...54 damage(Untyped), and target foe is knocked down for 2...4 seconds" though.

That way it wouldn't just be used in 321elespikes. It'd be used in321ritspikes too, and it'd be even more imbalanced.

/end sarcasam

Kyune · Feb 28, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

...Fair enough. Because Gust itself did damage I wanted to maintain that aspect of the skill, and had envisioned that the damage would be the same as to conjure element damage--an additional 'hit' and separately able to be reduced by armor/prot effects.

If it does too much damage it's a 321 spike skill.
If it does too little ignore it for gale.
As a hex, likely it ends up being too similar to other spells in the line and just be superseded by them.
As an enchantment...may as well just be a glyph. In either case, the best hope would be that damage gets removed from the skill and it just provides a reasonably good chance of things happening when conditions are met, and air's 'thing' is KD and blindness.
Can't increase KD, 3s was already pushing it with pre-umpteenth-nerf gale which was effective to begin with and then started to see heavy abuse with Savannah Heat and other remote AoE drops. Yet, at 3s Gust still not getting used.
Ease the conditions and it gets too easy for secondaries to use, raise them and it'll either be gone forever or used in discord-like teams if the corresponding effect is great enough.

That said, I'll stop trying now since I simply don't have enough insight into the game to be constructive here, or enough foresight to see how this is going to end somewhere positively.

suiraCLAW · Feb 28, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Gust 5/1/10
Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...54 cold damage and that foe is knocked down for 3 seconds. If that foe was not suffering from a elemental hex this spell causes exhaustion. If that foe was moving, this spell recharges 20...60% faster.

That would make it slightly better...

Patccmoi · Feb 28, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Gust 5/1/10
Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...54 cold damage and that foe is knocked down for 3 seconds. If that foe was not suffering from a elemental hex this spell causes exhaustion. If that foe was moving, this spell recharges 20...60% faster.

That would make it slightly better...

I like everything about it except 'if that foe was moving this spell recharges 20..60% faster'.

Why is that needed at all?! 5/1/10 is already truly spammable enough.

I'd be more tempted to but it 10/1/10 and raise the damage a bit though, to limit warrior use.