Curse

around · Feb 27, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

I know KGYU-style condition pressure is largely dead, but I was trying to design a build with the cripshot apply and barbed burning arrows ranger due to spread conditions, and my guild had a discussion over whether Dragon Slash (which I favour) is better than Bull's Charge. Dragon Slash gives you probably the highest DPS on a single character in the game, while Bull's Charge gives you more flexibility on the split, as well as letting you train a flagrunner or something on the way in.

JR · Feb 27, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Both are equally good for exactly the reasons you discussed. You also have to take into account the other Warrior, the amount of movement controll you have in your build, whether you want that Warrior to split... and other such things. Really this is why when discussing a single character you need to put it in the context of an entire build.

Give some more info and you might get some more definitive advice.

around · Feb 27, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Ok, sorry, I'll post up a sort of finished team build:

W/A Dragonslasher

Swords 12+1+1
Strength 12+1

Sever Artery
Gash
Sun and Moon Slash
Dragon Slash
Bull's Strike
Signet of Malice
Frenzy
Dash/Rush

W/A Hammer Warrior

Hammer 12+1+1
Tactics 10+1
Strength 8+1

Devastating Hammer
Crushing Blow
Fierce Blow/Signet of Malice
Bull's Strike
Frenzy
Dash
Healing Signet
Rez Sig

R/Mo Apply Cripshot

Exp 12+1+1
Wild 9+1
Marks 9(+1)
Prot 2

Apply Poison
Crippling Shot
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Natural Stride
Troll Unguent
Mending Touch
Rez sig

R/Mo Barbed Burning

Exp 12+1+1
Wild 8+1
Marks 10
Prot 3

Barbed Arrows
Burning Arrow
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Natural Stride
Troll Unguent
Mending Touch
Rez sig

Me/E Flag Runner

Domination 11+1+1
Fast Casting 9+1
Air Magic 8
Water Magic 8

Water Trident
Storm Djinn's Haste
Diversion
Blackout
Shame/Guilt
Wastrel's Demise
Power Return
Shatter Enchantment

N/Mo Tainted

Death 12+1+1
Healing 9
Soul Reaping 9
Prot Prayers 2

Tainted Flesh
Rotting Flesh
Putrid Explosion
Well of the Profane
Draw Conditions
Purge Signet
Gift of Health
Resurrect (only because it's the quickest casting rez)

Mo/A LoD Infuse

11+1+1 Healing
10+1 Divine
8 Prot
6 Shadow Arts

Light of Deliverance
Words of Comfort
Infuse Health
Dismiss Condition
Prot Spirit/Shield of Absorption
Holy Veil
Return
Death's Retreat

Mo/A BL

11+1+1 Divine
10+1 Healing Prayers
8+1 Prot
6 Shadow

Signet of Devotion
Blessed Light
Gift of Health
Spirit Bond
Dismiss Condition
Reversal of Fortune
Death's Retreat
Return

I realize that this is probably now in the wrong forum, so feel free to move it.

DIH49 · Feb 27, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

You have a barbed arrow so you don't need the sever spam from the Warrior. I would run a Bulls Charge for more KD.

Blame the Monks · Feb 27, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

A few thoughts... A "standard" d-slash runs:

prot strike
sever
gash
sun
dragon
rush
frenzy
res sig

Your version dropped prot strike for bulls strike and rush for dash. I believe these are bad changes because they take away from what you want the dslasher to do.

A dslash exists for raw damage. Other warriors are more suited for other roles, but a dslash is not there for splits, spikes, or anything but damage. His bar and in game play should be oriented around pumping out the maximum possible damage. A dslash should be in a stance almost all the time -- you should either be frenzying on someone, rushing between targets, or rushing as you carve prot strike sized chunks out of their backside. Your energy should be exclusively channeled into driving up your DPS either through a flurry of prot strikes or constant frenzy. If you use dash, you will have to be more conservative with frenzies (because you will not be able to cancel as much because of cost and recharge issues). Furthermore, dash is fine to overtake someone and bull strike them down, but for steady damage to a moving target rush + pstrike is much more damage. Finally, it makes a nice little minispike after a gash -- a quick sun + prot strike can draw a lot of prots, which can be a great way to get their monks to overspend energy.

Bulls strike is a great skill, and dash has its place as well, but for a pure DPS falsgstand warrior, I believe rush + protstrike generate more DPS and are a better choice.

JR · Feb 27, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

...

Agreed 100% with all of that post.

This is probably one of the most common and most effective D-Slash set-ups around:

Quote:

Dragon Srash
Warrior/Necromancer

Strength: 13 (12+1)
Swordsmanship: 14 (12+2)

- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Rush (Strength)
- Protector's Strike (Strength)
- Sever Artery (Swordsmanship)
- Gash (Swordsmanship)
- Sun and Moon Slash (Swordsmanship)
- Dragon Slash [Elite] (Swordsmanship)
- Resurrection Signet ()

As for your hammer warrior:

In a pressure build i'll pick KD spam over raw damage on a Hammer Warrior any day. As such I'd go with something like this:

Quote:

Earthshaker
Warrior/Paragon

Strength: 8 (7+1)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)
Hammer Mastery: 14 (12+2)

- Enraging Charge (Strength)
- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Earth Shaker [Elite] (Hammer Mastery)
- Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Hammer Bash (Hammer Mastery)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Remedy Signet (Paragon Other)
- Resurrection Signet ()

This is where the Bull's Charge guy starts looking more attractive - as a Warrior who will be stronger on splits - assuming you want at least one Warrior of the two to be able to split.

Quote:

Bull's Charge
Warrior/Paragon

Strength: 8
Swordsmanship: 14 (12+2)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)

- Bull's Charge [Elite] (Strength)
- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Sever Artery (Swordsmanship)
- Gash (Swordsmanship)
- Sun and Moon Slash (Swordsmanship)
- Mending Touch (Protection Prayers)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Resurrection Signet ()

That said, there are strong split hammer templates that can be decent at the stand also:

Quote:

Shove
Warrior/Paragon

Strength: 6
Tactics: 14 (12+2)
Hammer Mastery: 13 (11+2)

- Sprint (Strength)
- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Shove [Elite] (Tactics)
- Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Thrill of Victory (Tactics)
- Disciplined Stance (Tactics)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Mending Touch (Protection Prayers)

A little wacky for some peoples tastes, but we have run it with considerable success. It's slightly less pressure oriented at the flag stand, but very strong on splits.

So were you looking at running at least one Warrior that is strong in splits, I would suggest these combinations as possibilties:

Dragon Slash + Shove Warrior
Earthshaker + Bull's Charge

A note on runes: You can really only afford to run two attributes runes on Warriors, and generally a Strength rune really isn't worth it anyway.

- Superior Vigor
- Reduced Cripple Rune
- Reduced Blind Rune
- Minor Weapon Rune
- Minor Tactics/Strength Rune

TheOneMephisto · Feb 28, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

JR doesn't run super absorption on warriors?

I know that any competent warrior won't be using physical vs you either way, but absorption still has some nice benefits (NPCs) for free. Is the second reduced condition rune better than it?

Ensign · Feb 28, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Every time in the last couple of months an opponent has run Bull's Charge against me, I had not noticed that he had Bull's Charge and it had to be pointed out later. That's not a good sign for the strength of the skill.

Peace,
-CxE

Phelann · Feb 28, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Every time in the last couple of months an opponent has run Bull's Charge against me, I had not noticed that he had Bull's Charge and it had to be pointed out later. That's not a good sign for the strength of the skill.

Peace,
-CxE

Soooooooooooooooomeone hasn't fought smgggggggzzzzzzzzzzzooooooooorrrrrrrr.

twicky_kid · Feb 28, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

I ran Bull's charge and One your knees for a never ending bull's charge.

Because of the hammer attack speed it is timed perfectly when the target stands up if they are moving at all they will KDed again. If they don't move they get pummeled by a hammer either way its win win

Sword and Axe do not time well with Bull's charge.

Hauki · Feb 28, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

JR doesn't run super absorption on warriors?

I know that any competent warrior won't be using physical vs you either way, but absorption still has some nice benefits (NPCs) for free. Is the second reduced condition rune better than it?

Yes, it is. Sup. Absorb is worthless.

Nortos · Feb 28, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

i would say dragon slash is better as the rangers should be able to split effectively and water trident may sometimes overlap bull's charge also bull's charge+water trident+kd war is probably overkill.

Phelann · Feb 28, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nortos

i would say dragon slash is better as the rangers should be able to split effectively and water trident may sometimes overlap bull's charge also bull's charge+water trident+kd war is probably overkill.

you need tanks that are able to split.

and btw, people say overkill in this game like its a bad thing. overkill makes builds awesome.

DIH49 · Feb 28, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

JR doesn't run super absorption on warriors?

I didn't think anyone still ran absorption... I'd swap it in a heartbeat for a blind/cripple reduction or a vitae. It's a 3 dmg reduction against bad warriors, how fantastic.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 28, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I didn't think anyone still ran absorption... I'd swap it in a heartbeat for a blind/cripple reduction or a vitae. It's a 3 dmg reduction against bad warriors, how fantastic.

Absorption looks a lot more attractive in the enemy base or at VoD though. When large numbers of archers and/or knights are pinging you for damage, the -3s really start to add up. Combined with the warriors' naturally high AL, it makes archer autoattacks much less of a threat.

Not that that makes it worth bringing all the time, but I'd take it over a vitae on any splittable warrior.

DIH49 · Feb 28, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Absorption looks a lot more attractive in the enemy base or at VoD though.

In the enemy base you should only be on one NPC at a time, so the damage reduction from absorption is negligible. Easily dealt with by a Healsig. At VoD, 3 damage is almost meaningless compared to the massive damage dealt. 3 off of 60 is alright, I suppose. Rather have a blind reduction though. Oh, and knights have been known to use Fiery Dragon Swords =p

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 28, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

My guild ran a Bull's Charge/BHA Ranger for our split. It shuts down a monk for the duration of Bull's Charge, which is plenty enough time to kill them. We rolled near every other split group we faced simply because they couldn't heal.

Without BHA, I would definitally say the Dragon Slash is a million times better.

around · Mar 02, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Why Earthshaker and not Devastating Hammer? Wouldn't Devastating be easier to charge up and, well, spam?

JR · Mar 02, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Why Earthshaker and not Devastating Hammer? Wouldn't Devastating be easier to charge up and, well, spam?

The extra one adren that it costs to charge Earthshaker is really not that big of a deal when Earthshaker lets you do... uh... this:

Thomas.knbk · Mar 02, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

We run a Dslash warrior in a condition pressure build and it works quite well, but we do have 3 other quite splittable characters in the build.

And JR, how many times does that actually happen? I mean, it's ADJACENT range....