Curse

Lordhelmos · Mar 03, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I have to vouch for yes. I wont list reasons since you can find most of them around the other threads (BoA, Discord, Lamentation, etc...). Just want to see what the community thinks.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 03, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

blame morello for discord.

Well, it would've been fine, but then they don't nerf the stuff that's problematic in a timely fashion.

JR · Mar 03, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Currently the method used to balance skills within Guild Wars relies on infrequent and inaccurate large updates, with a vast number of buffs and nerfs which completely throw the game on it's head. This clearly is not the ideal approach.

To give a simple and recent example that everyone should be able to relate to, the most recent balance update. It nerfed ridiculous Shadow of Haste splits, and toned down Dom Spike, amongst other things, but then gave us Discord Spike and Rit Spike.

The problem is that the balance updates are more active, not reactive. They are trying to predict how skills will be used over the course of a season or more, and influence the direction of the meta. Skills are not being balanced purely on a basis of looking at how they are used and tweaking them.

I think we can all agree that skill balance in Guild Wars would be a lot stronger if there was no dates, no waiting for massive updates, just small balance tweaks whenever the game needs them. I can understand wanting to wait and see if people can counter certain gimmicks that appear (the 'suck less' philosophy of Isaiah), but really during that time it is just hurting the game. On top of this you really have to look at things like Rit spike and realise they are simply just broken, without a doubt.

Why not just go ok - lets tone down some of those key spike skills like Lamentation (lol?), and make the game a better place untill we really figure out what we want to do? To be blunt you could completely bump the Rit spike skills out of the game and it would do a lot less harm than keeping them in their current form would.

It is nice to buff things from a point where they are useless to a point where they see play, I completely understand that. It gives builds more diversity and makes the game a better place. That said, when you buff a .25 second cast damage spell with a 5 energy cost... you really are asking for spike... and nobody likes spike.

The ideal situation would be where skills were tweaked not by any schedule, but as soon as it becomes apparent that they might be a problem. This basicly pushes overpowered gimmick builds out of the game, and would vastly improve it.

For the longest time people have *****ed about new classes and skills causing issues to competitive PvP play. I agreed, it did seem that they caused a problem. That really isn't the issue though, when you get right down to the nitty-gritty it's simply bad skill balance. You could add many more classes and hundreds more skills provided you actually can put in the time to balance them properly and reactively, based on what you see on observer mode or what people are whining about.

It allows you to make much better changes too. For example, if a skill is a problem then instead of nerfing it out of the game you can continually tweak it downwards over the course of a few weeks, watching to see the effect those changes have. Instead of buffing a skill to ridiculousness, you can slowly tweak it upwards untill you begin to see it getting played. These are the benefits of the ability to balance skills regularly, not on a specific schedule of updates.

I would argue that the biggest problem with Guild Wars PvP (oh the clichè) is skill balance right now. The new AT system is a lot of fun, people like it. Real prizes worth playing for, the scheduling is a ***** but that's not an easy problem to get around.

Jade Isle is probably one of the single biggest issues players have at the moment, but ask yourself something. Would Jade Isle be such a problem if builds like Rit Spike were hit? Other things like the recent thread talking about limiting classes to prevent gimmicks, isn't that just a hackish way around bad skill balance? That really is pushing this thread off the track I intend though, my point is simply that I think people severely underrate the importance of proper balance and the effect it has.

TYVM

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44963

Lorekeeper · Mar 03, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

what puzzles me the most about this new era of the gvg ladder is that Anet promised that it would allow for skill updates to occur more frequently. We wouldnt have to wait until ladder locks for skill balances.

For about 3-4 weeks now we have been playing with the stupidly powerful ritualist spike which first reared its ugly head in Heroes ascent and is now responsible for elevating many average gvg guilds to top 100 even top 20 ladder positions.

Thing is, as soon as it became popular in HA... it was obvious something needed changing... it should have been changed before it made the move into GvG. But we are still waiting for the much needed changes, but while we wait the gvg ladder is being abused.

Thats not to mention the discord teams named ''neoway'' after the guild who i believe ran it first. There are numerous posts reporting on how its beaten eF and other high ranked guilds.

These 2 builds are destroying the fun factor of gvg and obliterating any sense of skill in the ladder. When you can field 4 heroes in a gvg build and beat top guilds filled with players proven to be of top quality, theres something horribly wrong.

its just one of the example of Anets reluctance to do the following

1) publicly identify there is something that needs balancing
2) actually balancing stuff before it ruins the game too far

i understand it might take a while to figure out what exactly needs to be done to balance these builds... but with 3 chapters of balancing experience, you might expect them to be able to solve these issues a little quicker than they seem to be doing at the moment.

At least let us know there are balance changes coming. So far there is little evidence of this new era of pvp being very different from previous eras.

sort it out

Ensign · Mar 03, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

I think the meta is slightly less diverse and slightly less fun than it was before the balance changes.

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Mar 03, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I'd agree that the meta as a whole is worse too.

That being said, i think that the balance change did a lot of good overall, in the sense that a lot more stuff is viable and interesting now. We're actually experimenting with new stuff (no SP-BoA, Savannah or Rt spikes) and there's some pretty original things that work really well and are fun to play.

But the problem is just a few builds. SP-BoA is one (i mean, we go in HA right now with 4/6 people in the team running hex breaker just to counter that even though i'd rather use my secondary for something else, clearly shows something is wrong), and the a few skills that make Rt spikes too powerful, and Discord.

A vast majority of the skill changes are good, but the problem is that they did a mistake on say 4-5 skills and they DON'T FIX THEM. It's been what, a month now? More? And they didn't fix a skill. I fully agree with what Lorekeeper said, ANet said 'oh, you'll love our new skill update system, we won't wait after seasons and will do it much more frequently now'... well all there was is 2 beta weekends, then they changed the skill and just leave them like that even though some stuff is obviously broken since a long long time.

Just like JR said in his post (great post btw), skill balance is something that should be done FAST when some skills are obviously broken. I mean, sure you can give it a week or 2 to see if people adapt if you truly believe that the skill is balanced this way (but seriously you can't look at Lamentation stats and think that this is balanced. You just can't. I don't even care about the rest of Rt spike, we charge them head on, casters using +10AL vs lightning shields and using Spirit Bond on spikes, using some interrupts to weaken the spike, AOEs to make them run around and clear spirits fast and we can beat them this way, but if they throw a Lamentation spike on someone it's a straight kill that you just can't prevent).

There was repetitive mention (by players, true) of the fact that the balance to Rt skills and to Sin skills is ready... so what's holding them back so long? Nobody cares for 'big updates' where you try to fix everything at once. If an update is ready, release it. Don't wait till every update for every part of the game is ready at once if it's going to take 2 weeks before you fix what needs fixing.

Dzan · Mar 04, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Big updates create more problems than they solve because you are introducing more variables to consider, so the potential effect of the update is unknowable.

Let's assume the next big update crushes rit spike, but nerfs/buffs like 40 other skills. Who knows what the resultant metagame will be? Certainly not A-net. It is impossible to determine the effect on the metagame of a nerf on a single skill when you change 39 others along with it. You can't see the trees through the forest, so to speak.

For instance, who knows what caused Effect X to happen in the metagame; was it the nerf to Skill A or the buff to Skill B or some third option interacting with the first two, or some even more complex combination? This type of game balance makes no sense to me. If they were to nerf or buff skills on a single, or at least small, basis they could have a controlled measurement of the effects of the changes and actually see what is happening inside the game.

Riotgear · Mar 04, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think the meta is slightly less diverse and slightly less fun than it was before the balance changes.

I'll take anything in the current meta over, say.... Jagged Bones spirit spam, Grenth+thumpers, or 5-mesmer Blinding Surge/SP Eurospike.

Quote:

the potential effect of the update is unknowable.

I can't say that Anet should hire some psychics, but some of the decisions resulting in the current meta are dumb.

Generally-speaking, what Anet failed to do was simply consider that any spell that does over 100 damage is automatically spike fuel, and consequently, needs to fall in line with other spike abilities. They're also overrated conditionality severely. 115 damage for 5e/1c/2r? Does that even SOUND balanced? Conditionality does not make that OK, you could make it require an adjacent dead party member, and people would bring someone just to suicide and be a full-time corpse so they could spam it out.

They also probably could have realized SP/BoA was overpowered a long time ago by, say, going into TA.

Lordhelmos · Mar 04, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I've had my share of long arguements on this so im past that point. All I can say is the meta is starting to have less and less diversity. Less diversity = less fun. This is probably not just because of the skill update, but because of the community adapting so fast to certain build strategies. Pressure and spike have been nearly perfected so if there is a skill imbalance, us long time players will exploit it instantly.

Hyunsai · Mar 04, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'll take anything in the current meta over, say.... Jagged Bones spirit spam, Grenth+thumpers, or 5-mesmer Blinding Surge/SP Eurospike.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

They also probably could have realized SP/BoA was overpowered a long time ago by, say, going into TA.

Well, this build was there for a long time, but before the update, in TA it was one or two tumpers in every team, so...

pah01 · Mar 04, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

The problem with skillbalance is that its an onion.

When something retarded gets nerfed ie Energising Finale, then the next retarded thing pops up ie Avatar of Grenth.

Sometimes skills are too strong because they allow you not to care about tactics. Hmm they killed our Npcs. Fine lets Dual surge, Dual spiritual pain all the NPCS at VOD when they ball up.

When you have multiple skills that are overpowered at the same time, people dont notice that there are still other retarded skills just waiting for somebody to notice them. ie Melandrus spamming wearying strike and Rampage as One Thumpers.

Therefore it was imposible to really consider Boa Sins a problem when you had some other clearly broken stuff running around.

Then when you have the game company updating things from crap to retarded all by themselves, Hello LAMENTATION, goodbye some poor guy, you have a problem that is not going to get fixed anytime soon.

JR is completely correct Skill updates need to be fast. I happen to think that the state of the game for the last 3-4 months before factions release was awesome in terms of actual balance, there wasnt really any major issues untill factions. If you dont balance frequently then all the retarded stuff never gets discovered before the next set of retarded stuff comes out.

If you are going to introduce 300+ new skills every chapter you better have a plan for making the game balanced fairly quickly after release, because it would be a shame to have a game that never really was balanced for for any length of time.

I think I said it before but there are two types of skills that need to be seriously looked at when being introduced to the game.

1. energy creation skills. Its simple Math to see whether or not this skill is balanced - just compare fuctionality to now useless inspiration line, Ask the question whether it can be abused like Energising Finale or Ether renwal. It should be obvioud whether or not the skill will be broken.

2. Skills that effect Melee, Ie will rampage as one significantly increase pressure and DPS of a thumper. Hmm why did we nerf Tigers Fury???

I now have to add a third because of Lamentation.

3. Skills that do over 90 damage. Hmm shall we make it 1/4 seconds cast so even Sarus cant catch it?

Joe

Div · Mar 04, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

The problem with skill balance is that they don't balance skills often enough, like they promised they'll do. If they balanced skills once a week, we wouldn't have all these ritspike and discord spike problems. Anet is lazy. End of story.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 04, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Hmm why did we nerf Tigers Fury???

Because of IWAY

IMO, the skill balance did more good than bad to the game. The gimmicks we have now aren't worse than the ones we had imo. Exept for Lamentation, which is retarded.

Riotgear · Mar 04, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

ie Melandrus spamming wearying strike

They posted this as a possibility in the NF skill preview, so they knew about it long ago.

Quote:

3. Skills that do over 90 damage. Hmm shall we make it 1/4 seconds cast so even Sarus cant catch it?

Any spell that does over 100 damage should automatically be 2-second cast time. 1s is acceptable with a huge recharge only.

Honestly, most skills that have popped up being blatantly imbalanced have fallen into one of several categories:

1. Skills that remove counters and let you get away with mashing buttons. Avatar of Melandru, Avatar of Grenth, Rampage as One, Shadow Prison, Harrier's Grasp.

2. I Win Buttons. Blinding Surge, Avatar of Grenth.

3. Skills that got overbuffed from Flare to Fast-Cast-5e-Lightning-Hammer, a.k.a. skills that got buffed to 100+ damage without going through the 321Spike Viability Evaluation(tm) stage. Discord, Spiritual Pain, Wielder's Strike, Spirit Burn, Gaze from Beyond.

4. Skills that didn't go through the Multiple Copies Gimmick Viability Evaluation(tm) stage. This includes all spike skills, Searing Flames, and practically every Paragon ability that's ever endured a nerf.

5. Soul Reaping abuse.

ideologue · Mar 04, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

If they hadn't nerfed anything...
Power leak = 39 energy loss
Energy drain = 17 energy steal
Enregy tap = 15 energy steal both 15 seconds recharge
even ether feast steals 10 energy for god's sake.

Nature's renewal: remove all enchantmetns in the radar
QZ: lasts 3 times as long as today, and costs 5 energy
Ether Renewal: just hit your infuse health non stop for 30 seconds see if the other team can kill anything

and i'll still have my + 40% enchantment axe ^^ non stop obsidian flesh in ha ftw.
pvp will be very fun indeed

Byron · Mar 05, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I guess this has been said already:

There are always some broken builds that give people like me room to complain. Looking back on NR/tranq, IWAY, triple smite, FC air spike, gale axes, OoV/OoP ranger spike, ether renewal, and so on, I realize something: there is never going to be a balanced meta. Scrub builds will always be around, they are part of the game. Much the same way scrubs are part of society.

Riotgear · Mar 05, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

There are always some broken builds that give people like me room to complain. Looking back on NR/tranq, IWAY, triple smite, FC air spike, gale axes, OoV/OoP ranger spike, ether renewal, and so on, I realize something: there is never going to be a balanced meta. Scrub builds will always be around, they are part of the game. Much the same way scrubs are part of society.

Balance is not an objective that can be reached, it is an ongoing process. You can not simply say "oh, there will always be gimmicks, let's not try to balance things." That's akin to saying there will always be crime, so we may as well just pull all the police off the streets.

When the top championships are dominated by identical Eurospike, or half of HA is the exact same build, then there are issues that need to be addressed. Yes, another gimmick will pop up, but as the strong gimmicks get nerfed, they switch to weaker successors, and eventually running a gimmick against good players is not enough.

Franco Power · Mar 05, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ideologue

If they hadn't nerfed anything...
Power leak = 39 energy loss
Energy drain = 17 energy steal
Enregy tap = 15 energy steal both 15 seconds recharge
even ether feast steals 10 energy for god's sake.

Nature's renewal: remove all enchantmetns in the radar
QZ: lasts 3 times as long as today, and costs 5 energy
Ether Renewal: just hit your infuse health non stop for 30 seconds see if the other team can kill anything

and i'll still have my + 40% enchantment axe ^^ non stop obsidian flesh in ha ftw.
pvp will be very fun indeed

You forgot to mention the days when Sissy boys, marvelous superheroes etc used to hold for hours straight by spamming spirits (example Fertile) on the altar, this was when GW came out and if newbies think things are unbalanced now, well... lol you really don't want to see how it was back then.

Thom · Mar 05, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Providing perfect synergies in the game text is a natural gimmick builder:
Necros requiring conditions, hexes to apply direct... it takes seconds to get from that game text of Discord to a successful gimmick (hmmm, we're pressure spike necros... how about some minions and a tainted guy).

Lamintation... A spike that requires spirits... hmmmm spirit pressure/defense and channelling spikes.

Regardless of how uber you are, you're looking for a way to slip laminations into a mixed spike.

HolyHawk · Mar 06, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

I'm not sure, but at times I get the impressiom that NF brought skills that really messed up something that was slightly more stable. Many skills came to spoil the classes (sick of seeing zb in 4x4?), and I'm not talking about meta changes, but about skills that override another skills. To name a few, Divert Hexes was introduced due to the addiction of too many powerfull hexes. It completelly kills teams with few hexes, and buy some time in teams with a lot of them, but it's still not that effective. Rts were buffed too much because they were hardly used after the communing balance (the latter which I though pertinent). SV buff, mending touch, discord, lamentation are not balanced. The method they seem to use is to change a skill to "hey, now I'm ubber, use me!" instead of creating worthy scenarios that a skill can find place.

I read the article about the next and last expansion, and more skills are coming, some of them pve only, but still leaving 100 of them to pvp. I'm curious to see how skills will screw up, because most of them screwed up factions for being dull, and most screwed nf for being too good.