Curse

rii · Mar 14, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Depends on what kind of split. Most of the time they'll only send 1,2,3 people to your base. If they split 4/4, which is rare these days but still hanging around, a lod runner will need help otherwise it'll get crushed. If one of your stand monks is ZB and you've got some anti-melee then leaving 1 monk at the stand is often worth it against really heavy splits.

Yeah though, against 1/2/3 man splits killing them is the best option.

Trevor · Mar 15, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Depends on what kind of split. Most of the time they'll only send 1,2,3 people to your base. If they split 4/4, which is rare these days but still hanging around, a lod runner will need help otherwise it'll get crushed. If one of your stand monks is ZB and you've got some anti-melee then leaving 1 monk at the stand is often worth it against really heavy splits.

Yeah though, against 1/2/3 man splits killing them is the best option.

If a team splits 4 to your base, chances are the two characters they leave at the flagstand will be able to rape a solo monk.

If you're running a monk runner, you should be extremely fond of turtling already, so if you can just have the monk stall enough to wipe their stand team. Or, just send a bit of offense back to help him if there's too much defense to push through.

rii · Mar 15, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor

If a team splits 4 to your base, chances are the two characters they leave at the flagstand will be able to rape a solo monk.

If you're running a monk runner, you should be extremely fond of turtling already, so if you can just have the monk stall enough to wipe their stand team. Or, just send a bit of offense back to help him if there's too much defense to push through.

While we're kind of getting into 'if' territory a little too much, if they send 4 characters to your base then those lot are going to be reasonably spec'ed to taking out up to and including a solo monk as well, and are going to have a monk of their own (+ some form of support character/s) and so aren't going to have massive problems assaulting most areas of your base (i.e. the GL area you're quite possibly turtling behind).

If your base monk is a LOD and you can leave a ZB at the stand (+any midline you've got) it might be worth it to send another monk back. Won't always, because it's circumstantial. Giving the definition '4 people' for a gank squad is a bit loose to argue about.

Yue · Mar 16, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

This bring's the case back to the original point. If you split a monk back to base, you're essentially playing into the split. A 4/4 split (a smart one at least) is designed to wipe a solo monk at the stand. Unless you're also built for splitting, you're going to end up getting your stand team wiped while not accomplishing anything at your base. This is not even including 4/4 splits that don't split monks.

=edit= And who the hell in my guild is named Trevor?

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 16, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

=edit= And who the hell in my guild is named Trevor?

His character name is 'Bacon PvE' so I'd assume...well...you know.

Yue · Mar 16, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I could have sworn that wasn't there when I checked last time.

Phelann · Mar 16, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

isn't that fellow in OUT

latbec · Mar 19, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Thanks. I've been out of GW and GvG for 3 months, so basically out of the loop, and this great thread has helped me catch up on stuff I have missed.

-Z-

JR · Mar 19, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

While we're kind of getting into 'if' territory a little too much, if they send 4 characters to your base then those lot are going to be reasonably spec'ed to taking out up to and including a solo monk as well, and are going to have a monk of their own (+ some form of support character/s) and so aren't going to have massive problems assaulting most areas of your base (i.e. the GL area you're quite possibly turtling behind).

If your base monk is a LOD and you can leave a ZB at the stand (+any midline you've got) it might be worth it to send another monk back. Won't always, because it's circumstantial. Giving the definition '4 people' for a gank squad is a bit loose to argue about.

If you have a Monk runner and are playing with the intention of sending him back to your base to stall splits then he should *not* be LoD. That character doesn't have nearly the self survivability to do the job properly, and essentially has a wasted elite while he is out of range of his team. The same goes for splitting offensively with this Monk, and if you aren't building to make the best of being able to split offensively with a Monk, then you have a semi-useless character. A split character should be able to split both offensively and defensively, equally well.

A split Monk like this should either be Shield of Regeneration (personal favorite) or Zealous Benediction (close second). This kind of character is both *very* hard for any offensive split to crack if you are hugging your lord, and allows you to have very offensively specced characters on your offensive split.

A competent Monk like this in the Lord area should really not be getting killed, or in a situation where he is - you should have a massive power play at the stand.

*lemming* · Mar 19, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

How about SoD runners? Seems like having a block effect that's difficult to interrupt is strong against the fairly popular dedicated offensive splits of the moment.

JR · Mar 19, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

How about SoD runners? Seems like having a block effect that's difficult to interrupt is strong against the fairly popular dedicated offensive splits of the moment.

Lacks a strong self heal. You could maybe get by with just SoD and Mending Touch... a bit sketchy and terrible against degen.

rii · Mar 19, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

If you have a Monk runner and are playing with the intention of sending him back to your base to stall splits then he should *not* be LoD. That character doesn't have nearly the self survivability to do the job properly, and essentially has a wasted elite while he is out of range of his team. The same goes for splitting offensively with this Monk, and if you aren't building to make the best of being able to split offensively with a Monk, then you have a semi-useless character. A split character should be able to split both offensively and defensively, equally well.

A split Monk like this should either be Shield of Regeneration (personal favorite) or Zealous Benediction (close second). This kind of character is both *very* hard for any offensive split to crack if you are hugging your lord, and allows you to have very offensively specced characters on your offensive split.

A competent Monk like this in the Lord area should really not be getting killed, or in a situation where he is - you should have a massive power play at the stand.

In the context of the build we run then our LOD doesn’t ‘…stall splits’ independently. We always, quickly, assist with numerous split-oriented (offensive) characters, preferring to turn the game into a split battle than attempt steamrolls against their weaker stand team, etc. Therefore, the ability to tank in the GL area isn’t so necessary, since the damage/disruption from our offensive split characters/ NPCs can easily fend off the enemy from getting a lot of alone time with our monk, and therefore the slightly (well, greatly) weaker LOD gets a nod over SOR, ZB, and so on, due to the assistance it gives at the stand in other scenarios.

When we do split offensively, it’s usually either a triple split of base-stand-their base, in reaction to a split by the other team, where the LOD is assisting our defence, or it’s against builds which have poor split capabilities, (and therefore our better split build can easily overpower them in their base and the weaknesses of LOD are masked), or it’s against a build with masses of flag stand anti-pressure (aegis, wards, etc), which to be successful against our build is generally of the order where anything they send back to the base is generally defensive in nature (E.g. Air E/Mo) and sending a monk to assist is just to keep blind of everyone so they can frenzymorepls.

While SOR and ZB are undoubtedly better split elites, and that fact I don’t dispute, LOD monks with mixed protection/healing usually hold up well enough against whatever they send when stood behind a wall of AL/block (with self heal/ mending touch) that mainly comprises our split characters.

If our monk runner was designed to tank our base while our stand team pushed then again I’d agree with you – but it’s not and therefore we just sacrifice split tank-ability for greater stand support.

On the subject of actually sending monks back on top of monk runners we haven’t run into a situation where it’s actually been necessary, my point was more than I don’t rule it out – we’ve had numerous games where they’ve had a potent split and their stand team has been lacklustre – and our monks have offered to come back because they’re literally doing nothing at the stand. My point wasn’t a piece of theory-crafting, where rational and competent opposition is assumed, it was a simple observation on what occasionally happens when over the course of a GVG night we play guilds from r<50->4k+.

Byron · Mar 20, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

More healer's boon runner IMO. It doesn't seem like the meta is supportive of a skirmish flagger lately. Most ganks require more than a secondray runner to deal with, and with the "nerf" of shadow prison, sins aren't nearly as scary on the solo gank. And very few splits bring enchant removal for boon.

A healer's boon runner also gives a great flexibility to the backline with its HP power. Most builds are either hex-based or condition based (NR/tranq) atm. Ideally, I'd pack an RC and divert backline with a Healer's boon runner. The heal parties are amazingly effective, allowing almost reckless offensive pushes. It's very hard to push an enemy out of your base when they have a monk casting 110+ HPs at liberty.

Farin · Mar 20, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

A healer's boon runner also gives a great flexibility to the backline with its HP power. Most builds are either hex-based or condition based (NR/tranq) atm. Ideally, I'd pack an RC and divert backline with a Healer's boon runner. The heal parties are amazingly effective, allowing almost reckless offensive pushes. It's very hard to push an enemy out of your base when they have a monk casting 110+ HPs at liberty.

Obs QQ much?

yule · Mar 21, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

just when i fall in love with my zb runner, someone comes and tells me healers boon tanks more. oh well... Thing that confuses me is, (assuming you are using storm djinns) wouldnt you have no energy regen on a HB runner? and what build would you use for it.

JR · Mar 21, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

The Healers Boon runner isn't really a replacement for the ZB/SoR runner. It fills a different role. It is basically the same slot that the old Ether Prodigy/Heal Party runners used to fill i.e. running flags, red bar support, limited split ability. The ZB/SoR runners are more primarily designed for giving a split solid support or being able to hold off an opposing split with relative ease.

One is a general purpose red bars go up runner, the other is a tool in a mobility/split battle.

Mental Leteci · Mar 21, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

We tried to use healer's boon runner, it doesn't work with storm djinn's haste that well, but if you'd use a Mo/A runner that would work.

Byron · Mar 21, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Obs QQ much?

Even though I and my guild are obviously QQ fanboys (fanpeople?), we've been doing similar 3-monk backlines for a while now. More specifically the HB runner, it is wonderful. Seeing QQ run it confirmed that it was a good idea. Nonetheless, they deserve the credit for pioneering it. I wouldn't be at all surprized to see it becoming the standard backline in a few days; great against hexes and NR/tranq. Lacking in split capability, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yule

wouldnt you have no energy regen on a HB runner?

There is GoLE, but I see your concern. Just take off HB until you need it, and/or don't run around the map all match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The Healers Boon runner isn't really a replacement for the ZB/SoR runner. It fills a different role.

Very much QFT. Healers boon doesn't split or defend nearly as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Mo/A runner that would work

Pretty nifty, the Mo/A, but no GoLE means that your runner will have to be more than just competent. Also takes away a third of the aegis chain...