Curse

Nysidious · Feb 22, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

I think that's the proper way to do it. Restricting one character's usefulness to running flags will make that character a good flag runner, no doubt. But that would only inhibit the usefulness in 8v8 situations.

Thats why i dont like monk flag runner because they are not going to be there to heal someone up anyway. Well mabye one or two ZB's inbetween flag runs but thats it. Ive seen alot of People run A CripShot Flag Runner With Mending Touch. Even vD has run it.

Phelann · Feb 22, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

A third monk is pretty useless during a push, actually.

I'd actually have to agree with byron here actually. The good part of having a third monk is that when he is up you can have every other non monk character in your group focus 100% completely on offense and stop worrying about silly things like staying alive.

Byron · Feb 23, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nysidious

Thats why i dont like monk flag runner because they are not going to be there to heal someone up anyway. Well mabye one or two ZB's inbetween flag runs but thats it. Ive seen alot of People run A CripShot Flag Runner With Mending Touch. Even vD has run it.

The problem with having a ranger running flags is that they can't do diddly squat while they are holding the flag. I've done enough flag running in my day to know that there are often extended amounts of time where the flag runner has to just hang out, holding the flag in the backline while the offense rallies. I love cripshot as an auxiliary flag runner, especially with the new nifty natural stride, but not as the primary flagger. vD probably had good reason to make the cripshot run flags for that match. Unfortunately, I don't get the chance to see them much, so I can't really comment any further.

ZB is moreso to stay alive and keep NPCs healed than provide heal support at the flagstand. At least, that's how I always saw it.

That's why E/mos were the standard before storm djinn's haste came around. They were mostly monks in their function anyway, spamming heal party and extinguish with their ether prodigy fuel. E/Mos have large energy pools and high utility without having to hold their weapons; logical.

Yue · Feb 23, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

If you're in the situation where you have to wait to cap, just have the ranger drop the flag for a midline caster to hold.

Byron · Feb 26, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

If you're in the situation where you have to wait to cap, just have the ranger drop the flag for a midline caster to hold.

Fair enough - but what happens when the ranger encounters a ganker in between his/her base and the flagstand?

Farin · Feb 27, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Have someone come back, snare, free kill.

mighty xxl · Feb 28, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Have someone come back, snare, free kill.

Why all the good advices only looks good on paper?
Byron gave a good example, the ganker isn't that stupid to just stay there and get snared and killed....

Thomas.knbk · Feb 28, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mighty xxl

Why all the good advices only looks good on paper?
Byron gave a good example, the ganker isn't that stupid to just stay there and get snared and killed....

If he runs away haven't you accomplished what you wanted to?

Farin · Feb 28, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by mighty xxl

Why all the good advices only looks good on paper?
Byron gave a good example, the ganker isn't that stupid to just stay there and get snared and killed....

Well it really depends on the skillbar of the runner. We usually have at least one snare in our runners and if he tries to get ganked he can snare the character trying to 'gank' him until the character sent back to help him arrives (usually 10-15 secs after).

Suedars · Mar 01, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

The problem with a ranger snaring is that most gankers have no problem removing cripple.

Seamus Finn · Mar 01, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

I would say that the real problem with a ranger runner is that you are running a ranger and thus need a good player. monk runners are wonderful because they are easy. Is there really any other (good) reason to run one?

Byron · Mar 01, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Have someone come back, snare, free kill.

It's not always that easy. Said ganker would likely see the counter-attack, and pull away. Going for the kill means investing two characters for an extended amount of time, giving the enemy advatage at the flag stand. Letting the ganker run away means he'll be back for the next flag, and the process needs to be repeated ad nausiam. All the while, this ganker is likely taking out archers and what-not.

The strategic premise of a gank is to develop number and territory advantages, so I would personally not like my team to play right into the ganker's intentions.

But, one character with skirmish ability (ie, E/Mo) would be able to fend off a typical gank and deliver the flag with only mild difficulty. Or, base defend while a secondary runner delivers flags.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Is there really any other (good) reason to run one?

Just that - it's easy to be made effective. What could be better than more heals?

Farin · Mar 01, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I have to disagree. First of all, you aren't really losing an advantage at the Flag Stand, both people have two of their characters split, one running flags and one doing something else. It's really not that hard to kill someone harassing your flagger if you have any brains or the tools to deal with it. It's usually hall dependent but a single good snare is more than enough to deal with a character. Don't understimate the damage of a burning arrow ranger when coupled with any sort of snare (with the most common being Freezing gust, gale).

It becomes harder when the other team starts splitting off characters to join that scrimmage, that's how flaggers die in matches with good teams involved, not just because one character solos the runner, that's just 100+ gvg gameplay (imo).

More on topic, I totally hate Monk runners just because they don't provide enough or any offense for my taste. Don't get me wrong, monk runners are good in builds that don't need the extra offense but I would take an EMo or an ERt anyday over a monk.

Byron · Mar 02, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

It's really not that hard to kill someone harassing your flagger if you have any brains or the tools to deal with it. It's usually hall dependent but a single good snare is more than enough to deal with a character.

Fair enough - I can't disagree.

Quote:

that's how flaggers die in matches with good teams involved, not just because one character solos the runner, that's just 100+ gvg gameplay (imo).

I suppose you are right. I think my dissent is a product of my frustration with the current meta. Thank you for the constructive critique.

jummeth · Mar 09, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Our runner takes both Prisons (Ice and Teinai's) AND Gale, its mostly for overcapping and then forcing a split since most runners lack any form of Hex removal atm.

Being on frozen isle, gale is just as good as a thrid ice prison. Just don't wand it with a smite =P

rii · Mar 12, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

While our runner has been subject to a lot of modification on the basis of personal preference I think it looks like this:

mo/a

div:10+1+1
hea:11+1
pro:10+1

reversal of fortune
dismiss condition
guardian
light of deliverance [e]
holy veil
words of comfort
disrupting dagger
dash

I personally think it's a bit messy but it works dam well. On the subject of LODs effectiveness I don't rate it as highly as heal party but it makes the difference against degen teams (obviously). As for pushes, it blatently doesn't make as much difference as for example a water snarer, but when you're on maps like warriors that have additional NPCs almost as soon as you push them a little back, the additional support can be useful in close games.

Of course, there is a lot of information not related in the runner build itself - the rest of our build is pretty pro-split, although we prefer stand pressuring, so at the sight of a pre-meditated gank we have several people jump at the opportunity to go back and duke it out. Lots of mending touch and self heals means the monk is quickly supported against daze/cripple, and lots of self heals turns it into an auxillary character, not someone we're begging for heals.

To the OP then I would say IDK to be honest, if I were to rate all of those prots in terms of split-goodness I'd go with shielding hands, since it's 1/4 cast, cheap, and has a good effect against sins and other melee/dps characters which are more common in ganks.

However it depends on how much support you're going to be given by teammates in the face of enemy ganks and so forth as to what else you take, up to and including your elite. ZB is probably the best tanking elite but if you're going to get lots of fast support then LOD is the most useful thing there is for a monk runner.

bigrob · Mar 13, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

i go with the new version of party healer: Healer's boon + heal party

heal so much more than lod so u dont need to spam it often.

and of course ele secondary for SDH and GoLE.

Nortos · Mar 13, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Zb runners are much better say if you have healer's boon or lod at main stand they have so much more survivability here's an example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

12+1+1 heal, 8+1 DF, 9+1 prot, 5 air

Light of deliverance
Words of comfort (mayyyybe orison)
Mending touch
Shielding hands
Holy Veil
Storm Djinn's haste
Aegis
Glyph of lesser energy

Ran exact same bar while i was guesting for friends guild. We pushed them back by 15 mins they had rit spammer, they sent 3 back to gank i ran back called for help no one replied, they went immediately on lord after bodyguard, i could outheal the sin, ba and rit spammer thanks to conditions but then after a while the ranger and sin both died from lord (lol) then because i had no conds to rely on to heal lord the rit spammer dps out dmged words of comfort only heal on the bar and using shielding hands to prot him although it also doesn't last nowhere near as long as a zb's.

In my opinion we would of won that match had i been zb instead of Lod, but also if they listened to me to send more back but that isn't the point.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 13, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

yeah, LoD's can do this: keep things up until a real monk gets back.

Yue · Mar 13, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Sending a real monk back is usually a bad idea. On most maps, that's suicide for the flagstand team, since most stand teams have enough shutdown to wipe a solo monk. Not to mention, it's much easier for the gank to collapse back at the stand and wipe the stand team before your real monk returns to the stand. It's much more effective to send offense back to deal with that kind of split and wipe it completely.