Curse

NeHoMaR · Mar 09, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

I remember writing in another thread about the "nerf" of IWAY, VIMway, BSpike, and all that incredible popular builds of the past, was indeed bad, and not good for this game, it's paradoxical because balancing seem to be good, but unbalance tend to keep pugs alive, because people love fast and easy success (playing the "overpowered" unbalanced builds) So, more balance = less pugs.

Even the teams that played balanced builds in the past, need the IWAYs, etc, for "fill the sack", I mean, for having an "enemy" to fight everyday. You can't fight a war without an enemy. A problem difficult to imagine in the past days, impossible to believe, it's now very easy to see; Not even Arenanet imagined this actual problem could happen.

sakura75 · Mar 11, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The decline of HA (the biggest casual PvP arena in Guild Wars) has a lot more to do with the decline of the PvP community than people give it credit for.

Even the most hardcore player wants the ability to tune out and do something less intense for a while. This is why quite a large number of the 'top players' simply play WoW or other competitors untill their guild is ready and formed up to GvG. It really isn't healthy for the game at all.

Totally agreed with JR.
The guild I was in was very active. Daily GvG and HoH (when waiting for members to get on for GvG). Used to pug alot to make new friends in HoH in good old times when Rift Wardens were still there and the 8v8 system was still available. The decline started with the introduction of too many members who wants to join the guild. Then some left the guild and joined top 10 guilds on ladder, others want a break and played WoW (some never returned).
HoH in its current system (6v6) is not challenging or fun anymore for me. Pug-ging is bad as well since you will not pass a 2nd or 3rd map and waiting for hours to assemble a team.
Introduction of titles was a big slap in the face of many players in the gvg community. We all know that rank was a joke, gladiator titles was not better and champion points... who needs them. Most hard core GvG-ers will meet each other on the map and knows each other by name, not by title.
GvG were the only reason I play GW, but since so many friends moved on with other games or took a break it is so hard to find a good team/guild to play GvG with.
For that reason, I am taking a break from PvP/GvG too and play some lame, boring PvE (waiting and hoping good old friends to return). It is a downward spiral, since I am not up-to-date anymore about new/current builds in GvG or new maps. So what GvG guild wants me?

If I know a remembrance of Guild Wars, I think of the Rift Wardens and 8v8 system in HoH. Of the Ranger spirit spamming and Elemental Air spike. Does Guild Wars treasure a remembrance with my name? Would the air over the Tyrian plains quiver with the sound of my guild's name? Or guild members look out for me to log on? Would Anet ever bring back the Rift?

NeHoMaR · Mar 11, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakura75

........For that reason, I am taking a break from PvP/GvG too and play some lame, boring PvE (waiting and hoping good old friends to return). It is a downward spiral, since I am not up-to-date anymore about new/current builds in GvG or new maps. So what GvG guild wants me?.......

Yeah, another big problem is some people still ignore us believing we are just whining, when indeed we are talking about the future of this game. I hope Arenanet people are smarter.

About PvE, not as off-topic as it seems, it's too easy when you are "hardcore" PvPer, and: easy = boring. I hope that "hard mode" will be indeed "hard" for PvPers.

krakenstar · Mar 12, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

First let me say it from a newcomers point of view:

Casual PvP is not dying. There are always a lot of newbies testing waters in the most casual formats. Just look at RA, AB, etc you will find it always packed. What is dying is most likely the higher end PvP. The problem is that there is a huge disconnect between the top and the bottom, in terms of knowledge base, skill base,learn curve required, lack of will/time to properly teach, elitism, frustration, and perhaps there exist no simpler mechanic IN GAME for someone who is interested in PvP to actually step into the higher levels from the RA and ABs.

In fact, RA and AB, the casual format are so poo-pooed upon that joke threads exists in every forum of almost every GW fansite I visit. But they ARE n00bs in the very true original sense of the word - Newbies, new to the game. Yes, you were once one too, and there are a LOT more skills to choose from to make even sillier mistakes with these days. Some will never be serious PvP players as they have no will, time, and/or inclination, but some will or can become your friend or respected foe in the high end if properly cheered.

The vets in the game has played 3 different release, absorbing the skill sets, metas of all the formats, step by step, as it evolved. They already know, a lot of them first hand what worked(works) against what, and what doesn't. They have spent all the time to learn and experienced these things. However, because they learned it via experience those knowledge can be summed up as Unconscious Competence. IE, "there are no easy way to explain it, but this the way it works you noob, listen up your way is just... dumb/wrong". Until we get more vets with Conscious Competency and is willing to teach/document that competence, that bridge will get wider as time goes on.

Arguably the most well organized body of information on GW is the guildwiki, hailed by most experienced PvP veterans (vets on this board) as the work of N00bs. While this might be true, why not help out by putting up good, solid knowledge that can help instead of insulting people who is less knowledgable, but yet is willing to spend time to attempt to help? Arguably the most well respected PvP body of knowledge lie in Guru. Have you look at the date of the last builds written on this site's database?

Some recent examples here:

Making A better warrior For PVP- A guide
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10128699

sure, wasn't the best ever written. but the authors caveats were completely ignored. This is written obviously for *very* new players, even just days/weeks old. Knowledge the best built in layers. Those players will absorb that article test it, learn more and get another guide they can test and learn from. There really isn't any need to bash it. It was bashed so much that the author requested the admin to close the thread.

How about this one?

Moriz's Tips for Tards: Warrior
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115806

Very nice guide. However could the title be nicer? I'm sure some new player already is very discouraged by losing (without understanding why) continuously. I found the guild very helpful, but I know that there are others that just can't swallow the thought of that's what their vets think of them - not just ignorant (ie lack exp & knowledge), but retarted.

Do you know why W/Mo mending/barfullofmoskills is so popular for newbs? Because its one of the few builds they can survive for longer then 10-15 secs in RA/AB. Thats how new they are.

Just an opinion, not a troll.

dgb · Mar 12, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

While this might be true, why not help out by putting up good, solid knowledge that can help instead of insulting people who is less knowledgable, but yet is willing to spend time to attempt to help?

Because you end up getting into arguments with tards who insist on removing frenzy from your build and putting in riposte. At the end of the day, most of the users on Guild Wiki are PVE-ers, and not so good at the game. They don't min-max for damage etc. which is fine, but then the y all feel that they can comment on PVP builds/articles etc. which is not fine. I'd be happy to contribute if I didn't have to get into long arguments every time I post something on there. If you're not a PVP player, stay away from editing a PVP article. It's something they can't grasp over there...

For example.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Talk:Frenzy

"Out of bitter, spiteful curiosity - is there any skill available in the game that's somehow worse than Frenzy? Something that'll get you killed even faster, some kind of spell or skill that just causes you to explode or something?"

"Frenzy is reckless. The people that I have come across are even MORE reckless. I don't see why any one would WILLINGLY take double damage. A smart warrior is rare to come by. I have cast Spiteful Spirit and Reckless Haste on so called "professional PVP warriors" and then sat there WATCHING them kill themselves. No really. I actually typed /sit. I always look to a skill bar to see if that warrior's using Frenzy to see their experience too. Not just IF they have it, but WHEN they use it. I was once healing in HA. In my team was a frenzy hammer warrior. He immediately picked up the resurrection orb and then dropped it and said "Sry. I forgot I ws a worrior". I wanted to kill him myself for that one. I just let Frenzy do that for me. On a side note, why use it at all? So you swing a little faster? A ranger can probably pull it off since they're not on the front lines taking as much damage as a warrior. Even then, Practiced Stance, Choking Gas and Flurry is enough of a combination that not only AVOIDS the double damage, but attacks fast too with a short bow. In the end, in all the time I've been in PVP and PVE, I have NOT ONCE seen some one use Frenzy wisely. "

There's a few people on there who understand the game and defend the point, but they are few and far between and generally have a tolerance that means they should be nominated as saints.

Zonzai · Mar 12, 2007, 07:04 AM // 07:04

I think HA was better before 6 man. In its original inception. Also, many of the other so-called 'improvements' made it less enjoyable and more elitist.

Lodurr · Mar 12, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

kraken makes a great point. There's a "second" or even "third" or "fourth" generation of high-end PvPers out there that have a huge barrier to getting into GvGs. Very few competitive guilds are willing to take on new GvGers, even when they display better knowledge and skill than you'd expect them to have, and when the newbies guild together to start GvGing, they're usually so far behind that they never get anywhere and lose players too fast to learn anything as a team.

Anet could help us out by keeping HA fresh, balanced, and competitive, which they've failed to do. How can you tell if someone's a good player when he's playing a button-mash build?

And I agree with kraken that high-end PvP is dying. I believe it's because of Anet's slow response to huge skill balance issues, and also the gimping of the ladder which has made GvG as a whole pretty unsatisfying for months.

krakenstar · Mar 12, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I'd be happy to contribute if I didn't have to get into long arguments every time I post something on there. If you're not a PVP player, stay away from editing a PVP article. It's something they can't grasp over there...

Point taken about GuildWiki's editors - I've noticed some of that myself, as new as I am. So why not write articles for Guru? They have a build library too. I don't think its been updated since prophecies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

There's a few people on there who understand the game and defend the point, but they are few and far between and generally have a tolerance that means they should be nominated as saints.

This goes with the point of my previous post. I believe most PvP vets have what's call Unconscious Competency. They learned it through layers of experience without documenting it down. When you do that you have a body of knowledge that is "just because", or only other vets can "feel you". when you write down something short. To take the examples from the Wiki Frenzy talk

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Talk:Frenzy

everyone who has been hating on frenzy makes me sad. seriously. Best PVP IAS, hands down. The only time the double damage is an issue is if you suck.

Most vets will nod their heads when they read this because they know thats true. But do you really think this will convince the people who are new? Or don't believe it? The truth is, the knowledge is there. And its not only too hard to explain for most vets - its that they simply don't even know how to explain it.

That's the difference between Conscious and Unconscious competence. It's also the reason the written word was invented in the first place. Without it I think our ancestors wouldn't be able to teach any numbers past 100 without counting it from 1 to every single student he has.

Guides are hard to write, specially original, good ones. The act of explaining things on paper is what translates Unconscious -> Conscious Competency, and that is truly a difficult task. But we need more good guides, for all level of play! It's hard to learn Calc without Grade 10 math. We especially need timing/field position/sit. awareness workshops/guides, the true difference between PvE and PvP.

Those things can be taught - they do it in the military all the time.

ack! I hope I didn't go away from the topic too much. But casual PvP is not dead. The other tiers are suffering.

Jetdoc · Mar 12, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

It really depends on how you define "casual" PvP. The choices:

1. PvEers "dabbling" in PvP - Primary locations - Random Arena and Alliance Battles - These areas continue to be bristling with activity.

2. Gateway PvEers looking to start PvP - Primary locations - Team Arena, Hero Battles and Heroes Ascent - This is the area that is dying, as "newer" PvP players are running into a declining PvP community coupled with continued rank discrimination from category #3 below.

3. Hardcore PvPers looking to "relax" - Primary locations - Team Arena and Heroes Ascent - As pointed out by others above, this area isn't as fun as it used to be for those GvGers just trying to blow off some steam and have some good natured fun.

#2, IMO, is the lifeblood of the PvP realm, as it is the main source of fresh PvP blood (which keeps the PvP community going strong). The lack of #3 players bringing the #2 players along is causing more and more of those gateway PvP players to simply go back to PvE.

The 8v8 weekend was a good example of how many gateway PvP players there are - the expanded party size allowed those players to attempt to PuG up where they previously would've been excluded.

Riotgear · Mar 12, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

I'm going to theorize that a lack of influx of new players is part of the problem. I work at CompUSA, and I seriously don't think a single copy of Nightfall sold after the first month of release. The collector's edition is on clearance right now.

I don't think GvG is as harsh as people make it out to be because of the ladder keeping bad teams with other bad teams for the most part. It's not like it's hard to get into a small guild that GvGs.

The problem with transitioning bad players off of bad builds is to get them to stop playing things that depend on people falling for stupid tricks. Yet it's hard to do that, because where they play, stupid tricks work better than playing a "real build." That's why E/D earth tanks, riposte tank wammos, and backfire/empathy mesmers are so heavily played. Conversely, try running a build with Spirit Bond in AB. It doesn't work, because no one focus-fires enough for it to do anything. You're better off just using ZB/gift and healing through it.

In general, most flagstand builds are actually BAD in scrub PvP because they lack independence and survivability, or are designed to disrupt rather than kill. As such, you can't tell an RA nublet to run a flagstand axe warrior, because they'll die, and go back to riposte. Those builds are designed to run with monk support, without one they're too fragile.

The biggest barrier to entry for places like HA or GvG is that it requires people to completely rethink how they play. Even TA is a bit harsh in that regard. To that end, the best thing to do is get people who are willing to learn, to drop everything and learn new tactics, as if they're learning a completely different game.

MaaKotka · Mar 12, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Few points for players who want to learn pvp side of the game.
1. You need to be willing to change guild
2. You need to play lots of casual pvp formats (ra,ab,ta,ha)
3. You need to play with efficient builds
4. You need to get unlocked all skills and items you need for most common builds for a profession you want to play
5. You need to take every possible chance to get to a new pvp guild. In other words when ever you play with a good and nice player you have to ask him if he is in pvp guild and then if you could join.
6. You need to be willing and able to play what ever build your new guild wants you to play
7. If you want to play monk do not expect your new guild to let you play monk in gvg before you have actually showed your skill in some less competetive formats
8. You need to listen what ever critique you will get from anyone and then think by yourself if he is right or not and if you get suggestions test them and then think if they actually are good or not.

These are some few points that came to my mind for those who are new to pvp.

MirageMaster · Mar 12, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

LOL, with all this shit.... forget it, who needs pvp.You cant do this, you cant do that.... you can only be my slave and so on... thx but i rather stay at pve.

MaaKotka · Mar 12, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

IMO If you want to learn pvp side of the game, you need to be willing to learn to play and listen what more experienced pvp players say.

BDZeres · Mar 12, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Some have quite rightly cited the change from 8v8 to 6v6 as a key cause in the decline of the HA community. I would like to focus on the impact this change has had for "gateway" PvP'ers as well as veteran GvG'ers, who played HA for it's cathartic effects.

The change from 64 skill slots to 48 skill slots is the fundamental reason for this decline in community. Not only has the 6v6 change greatly increased the viability of spike/gimmick builds (there are fewer skill slots available to use for interruptions, energy denial, energy management and general survival skills which are used in more balanced builds to counter spikes and gimmicks), but as mentioned by other forum members, led to increased rank discrimination (the logic being that player skill must now make up for the decrease in available Skill choices - lets face it, how many truly useful/versatile skills are out there?) and a stifling of true creativity in build design.

HA used to be a place where you could test out skill and player synergy in competitive, yet ultimately relaxed setting. The competition is now almost gone, replaced by button-pushing in response to the voice of your target caller. HA no longer encourages independent judgement, situational awareness
and reflective learning.

As long as your target caller is (somewhat) awake, your healers have had their coffee and the rest of your team can take orders like good little robots, you can be good at HA. PLEASE, do something about this Anet.

NeHoMaR · Mar 12, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

First let me say it from a newcomers point of view:

Casual PvP is not dying. There are always a lot of newbies testing waters in the most casual formats.

Newcomers? Newbies, n00bs? What the fu*k are you talking about? If inexperienced players are curious and wanna try RA I don't care at all my friend, that is NOT I am talking about in this thread. "Newcomers" just make a character and play exploring a "new" game, that's is not my point, I am sick of playing this game, completely sure more time than you.

By casual player I mean, play just for fun, not organized, not in organized guild, etc. Six months ago for example, you go to HA and enter a pug in 5 minutes, earn some fame, that is not possible now, that's why casual PvP is dying. 12 months ago for example, you go to TA as Monk and everybody /kneel on you asking "please" enter in my team, I will pay you.

Zonzai · Mar 13, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Casual GvG does not exist in this game. There is only elitist GvG and n00b GvG.

I've been in a few guild sthat have broke into the top few hundred, as a casual player but most casual guilds don't really GvG because it is not worth putting up with those that think they are the shiznit GvG 1337. At least, that's been my experience.

Drewfense · Mar 13, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Is not (was) this game the best online RPG for casual players? I am absolutely frustrated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

I remember writing in another thread about the "nerf" of IWAY, VIMway, BSpike, and all that incredible popular builds of the past, was indeed bad, and not good for this game, it's paradoxical because balancing seem to be good, but unbalance tend to keep pugs alive, because people love fast and easy success (playing the "overpowered" unbalanced builds) So, more balance = less pugs.

Then from the original Guild Wars press release

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC Soft

tactical battlegrounds where victory or loss is determined by skill and teamwork.

create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes."

The games original selling point and intent was a game that rewards skill over grinding. From your posts, you define those who have played since the game started as the grinders. By playing since the game started, by whatever means (IWAY, et cetera), they have an advantage over you. The easiest example being rank.

The other interpretation is by being balanced and not based on grinding for items or level such as other RPGs, the game is dependant on player skill. Therefore in a balanced game, the casual non-level or item grinding player can be on equal footing. Skill is the only denominator. Skill nerfs, new PvP character creation, level limit all point towards this interpretation. Also anet spokesman have preached it for a long time (yesterday WoC #10 with Izzy is an easy example).

There are two big problems with your interpretation. First off, rank really means nothing =/ I remember being low ranked (I joined PvP late too!) and thinking all the r9+ groups must go strait to winning HA. Really they don't. Good play gets you into the real good groups. If you stand out, people you play with and your opponents will notice. It is as simple as that. To create a game where "casual" players (I would sooner say inactive) would succeed, you would have to create skill imbalances. It takes skill out of the game and removes the competitiveness from PvP. Uncompetitive PvP = PvE = 6v6 Heroway HA.

As for the HA problems, the problem was more imbalanced skills again. Its touting an old horn, but as chapters have been added, more imbalanced skills have been made. Instead of addressing these imbalances, they avoided them by making HA 6v6. Another easy example is BSpike. Bring on Nightfall and it opens up the same problems because new imbalanced combinations emphasis the old problems and allow just as annoying builds in 6v6. I also think the old format was...old. I think anet made a great move in revamping the format, but 6v6 is just unattractive to most players.

NeHoMaR · Mar 13, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Who cares if rank mean nothing when you are NOT welcome in a r9+ guild/team at least you are r9+? (or family / personal friend of leader) Man, I am talking about the REAL things I see all days, not about "interpretations".

About "Casual GvG", how can I play GvG if I have no friends in game AND I am not in a guild? That neither was my point. My point is the past was better, a LOT better, for people that sometime play, sometimes don't. For example, how could someone this days go from unranked to r9 just playing pugs? I don't see that really possible, do you? (and again, who cares if rank is important or not? maybe I like the tiger emote because it's beautiful, and I can't get it anymore with pugs, being a casual player, THAT's my point)

krakenstar · Mar 13, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Newcomers? Newbies, n00bs? What the fu*k are you talking about? If inexperienced players are curious and wanna try RA I don't care at all my friend, that is NOT I am talking about in this thread. "Newcomers" just make a character and play exploring a "new" game, that's is not my point, I am sick of playing this game, completely sure more time than you.

... for someone casual about the game, you're sure pretty wound up about it. relax and take some deep breaths. Remember, breath is life; No breath, no life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

By casual player I mean, play just for fun, not organized, not in organized guild, etc. Six months ago for example, you go to HA and enter a pug in 5 minutes, earn some fame, that is not possible now, that's why casual PvP is dying. 12 months ago for example, you go to TA as Monk and everybody /kneel on you asking "please" enter in my team, I will pay you.

I had no clue that was your definition of casual PvP. Perhaps you should have specified by saying "PuG HA is dying" in the first place. There are already a lot of those threads around already, and it wasn't in the HA sub-forum. Sorry that I misunderstood, I'll leave your HA thread.

Drewfense · Mar 13, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Who cares if rank mean nothing when you are NOT welcome in a r9+ guild/team at least you are r9+? (or family / personal friend of leader) Man, I am talking about the REAL things I see all days, not about "interpretations".

About "Casual GvG", how can I play GvG if I have no friends in game AND I am not in a guild? That neither was my point. My point is the past was better, a LOT better, for people that sometime play, sometimes don't. For example, how could someone this days go from unranked to r9 just playing pugs? I don't see that really possible, do you? (and again, who cares if rank is important or not? maybe I like the tiger emote because it's beautiful, and I can't get it anymore with pugs, being a casual player, THAT's my point)

The casual form of GvG would be pugs created off of IRC, would it not?

Unranked to r9? I started HA a few months after factions came out while it was still 8v8. I formed unranked pugs using balanced builds. It took me 4 days to get r3 because I played only during prime time when bspike was common (I played infuser and scrubs on highly offensive builds with a decent infuser > new age bspike). You don't win halls every time, but you can get decent fame. I then very casually HAed over the next few months. I mainly GvGed, but that had little influence since those I GvGed with despised HA.

When 8v8 came back, I returned to HA, organizing groups. Normally a few friends and the rest filled with pugs. A couple hall streaks and I got to r7. By now r9+ groups that I didn't know were asking me to play. If I enter HA on either of my accounts (one being in a rank 150 guild), I get a barrage of join requests. Following the 8v8 period, I was still active in making and strat calling HA groups.

So yea...4 days for rank 3, I would say a month for r6 and another month for r9 albiet it was spread out surges of activity because of 6v6 and Heroway. I did it almost completely by balanced groups although I relish the 30 fame or so I got from IWAY. Difference between you and me? I actively formed groups. I realized you don't buy a box and deserve a right to win HA and get an emote.

Another way to put it. There are a ton of unranked to rank 3ish players in HA, but you rarely see "glf r3+!" because people lack initiative. If you put forth the effort to form pugs, the people are there. From doing so, you develop the friends list and make connections. If you don't want to do so, it is your own choice, but don't start pointing fingers because other people make groups from their friend list.

Your view is that a large portion of high ranked players got there by IWAY, BSpike, RSpike, et cetera back in the old halls. Halls is still halls. IWAY was replaced by assassins/savannah, BSpike with rit spike. What stops you from making similarly imbalanced or fame farming builds? The game is the most imbalanced as ever and their is the greatest potential for abuse. If you want a quick fame fix, make the next imbalanced spike build. If you become a good caller, it is incredibly easy to pug fame. Again, this requires initiative, inventiveness, and skill.