Curse

Ensign · Apr 15, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I guess after Avatar of Grenth went away, everyone simply decided to ignore enchantment removal all together.

Shatter was (and still is) rather popular. Mirror of Disenchantment is also really good now after seeing some spot use before. There's still removal out there, it's just a lack of effective spot removal for pesky enchants. You don't really want to be throwing Shatter or Mirror to remove an Attunement or Conjure after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Silly, because Drain Enchant is good again with Mantra of Recovery.

Drain is mediocre, but it is a decent spot removal. I wouldn't give it any special treatment with Mantra of Recovery, because everything is better with Mantra of Recovery...and, well, I don't think Mantra of Recovery is all that good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

RoF is a monk's knee-jerk reaction agianst surprises...I so would hardly say that monks "rely on it to make red bars go up".

The way I would describe it is that RoF is used to buy a Monk time. Fast reaction with RoF buys you time to evaluate and cast the spell you want to use to stabilize your target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Power Drain or GoLE imo. Drain just isn't worth the slot.

The value Drain provided before the recent patch was that it was effectively energy-neutral, and you could work your energy through low and no cost skills that way. Having a second enchant removal wasn't exactly a bad thing. However now there are two removals that you really want, Shatter and Mirror, and we lost another really good energy-neutral skill (Shame), so you really do have to push the active management angle now.

Peace,
-CxE

Zuranthium · Apr 15, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Power Drain or GoLE imo. Drain just isn't worth the slot.

GoLE is horrible on a MoR bar after the nerf. You're gaining 15 energy at most every 31 seconds. With Drain Enchantment, you gain 10 (plus or minus 2 depending on attribute) energy and remove 2 enchantments in that same time period. Definitely more worthwhile.

Power Drain is excellent and should definitely be brought on most every MoR bar, however it's not going to be enough by itself to keep you afloat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Shatter was (and still is) rather popular...

...Drain is mediocre, but it is a decent spot removal. I wouldn't give it any special treatment with Mantra of Recovery, because everything is better with Mantra of Recovery...and, well, I don't think Mantra of Recovery is all that good.

Shatter will probably always be popular because it's the best thing Mesmers can spike with.

Anyway...as I was saying, a MoR Mesmer only has so much energy. Everything doesn't get better under MoR because not everything can be spammed. Drain Enchant fits perfectly onto the bar because of the energy management. Also, why don't you like MoR?

~Z

Seamus Finn · Apr 15, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

GoLE is horrible on a MoR bar after the nerf. You're gaining 15 energy at most every 31 seconds. With Drain Enchantment, you gain 10 (plus or minus 2 depending on attribute) energy and remove 2 enchantments in that same time period. Definitely more worthwhile.

Gole still works nearly the same as it used to for mesmers. The only 15 energy cast before was shatter enchant(there is the shatter hex every now and then as well), which would now be 5 energy. GoLE was never optimal but it was EASY. Besides, mesmers don't need to consume energy and spam skills like an ele to be effective in a battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Power Drain is excellent and should definitely be brought on most every MoR bar, however it's not going to be enough by itself to keep you afloat.
~Z

If you are running power drain on MoR and can't keep your energy up 1 of 2 things are happening:

1: you are fighting IWAY, NR/Tranq etc. and have NOTHING to interrupt
or
2: you fail miserably at interrupts

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

If you are running power drain on MoR and can't keep your energy up 1 of 2 things are happening:

1: you are fighting IWAY, NR/Tranq etc. and have NOTHING to interrupt
or
2: you fail miserably at interrupts

P-Drain covers the costs of maintaining MoR + Diversion spam. That's it. You have to depend on natural regen for the other 5 skills on your bar. 1 of them will be a rez, so we will leave it out of this equation, and 1 of them is going to be Shatter Enchantment. Shatter is expensive; use it twice in 30 seconds (which should be the goal, the entire point of MoR is cast things more often than you normally could) and you've given yourself only 10 energy to work with over the course of 30 seconds for your other 3 skills! So to me, Drain Enchantment is rather necessary as one of those skills.

Also, with the meta right now, Shatter Hex SPAM is looking amazingly tasty. You'd definitely need Drain Enchant plus a another E-management to make that happen. Probably Auspicious Incantation, to use on Shatter Enchant.

~Z

Vermilion · Apr 16, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Mhm. Ive run drain,pdrain, and I guess shame on the same bar, and it works well enough. Other MoRs I see bring pdrain + gole if missing drain enchant. If you can consistently interrupt aegis, I don't see a huge reason to bring mirror. Its useful where? against aegis, multiple copies of conjures, (although most people run different conjures for this reason) and bonders.

Seamus Finn · Apr 16, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

P-Drain covers the costs of maintaining MoR + Diversion spam. That's it. You have to depend on natural regen for the other 5 skills on your bar. 1 of them will be a rez, so we will leave it out of this equation, and 1 of them is going to be Shatter Enchantment. Shatter is expensive; use it twice in 30 seconds (which should be the goal, the entire point of MoR is cast things more often than you normally could) and you've given yourself only 10 energy to work with over the course of 30 seconds for your other 3 skills! So to me, Drain Enchantment is rather necessary as one of those skills.

Also, with the meta right now, Shatter Hex SPAM is looking amazingly tasty. You'd definitely need Drain Enchant plus a another E-management to make that happen. Probably Auspicious Incantation, to use on Shatter Enchant.

~Z

If your idea of playing mesmer is having all your skills on recharge.... The point of MoR is not really to cast things more often than you normally could. You are playing mesmer, a class of opportunity. MoR allows you a better chance of having the skill you need to use available more often. Shattering on recharge? wow.

Ensign · Apr 16, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Also, why don't you like MoR?

It severely underperforms against teams that are worth anything. Mantra of Recovery is great against barrels and teams that play like barrels, that let you sit on their Monk's faces, but any Dom guy is awesome then. As you spend more and more time with Warriors in your face and having to kite, the less a faster recharge on Diversion matters. If you really want to mash on a couple of skills Mantra is fine, but when you have a whole bar of useful stuff you're not getting much benefit from Mantra at all.

Basically I think it's fine for players who can't handle anything more than spamming Diversion and Shame on one guy, but against better teams that guy's barely better than the same Diversion guy without Mantra. I say that from both ends, playing as a Mantra Dom guy and against decent Mantra Dom guys (most memorably, iPods). The Mantra doesn't do anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

If you are running power drain on MoR and can't keep your energy up 1 of 2 things are happening

Power Drain is actually a pain in the ass to use on a Mantra of Recovery bar, at least in a way that benefits from Mantra. The faster skills recharge, the more time that you want to spend casting. Spending time casting makes it a whole lot harder to hit interrupts. In fact the best time to hit Power Drain is when you're kiting a Warrior or otherwise not casting. Even when playing without Mantra I find myself having to cancel my own spells to hit Power Drains against a lot of teams, which really hammers the benefit of the skill. Under Mantra it would be even worse...

That is, if Mantra did much against teams that were worth anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The point of MoR is not really to cast things more often than you normally could.

Yeah, and occasionally that works out when you want a specific tool recharged more quickly than it would be otherwise. Ala, Shatter Enchantment in a 321spike build. More often, you find yourself kiting instead of casting more quickly, or casting 2-3 skills instead of using your whole bar because things have recharged faster.

If I only get to cast 5 spells in a 30 second window, how much better is 3 Diversions and 2 Shames than 2 Diversions, Shame, and two other skills of choice - say Signet of Humility and a Burn?

Especially when you're having to take advantage of opportunities as they come up, and not just cast when convenient for you.

Note that I consider dropping 5 good spells on a backline in a 30 second period to be exceptionally generous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Shattering on recharge? wow.

I haven't used my Shatter on recharge since the last time I played 321spike. I'm using it every 45-60 seconds on a good day now. If your Warriors are really charged and counting down significantly faster than every 25 seconds against a team ready for Warriors, they're doing a phenomenal job.

For fast spikes you're usually riding the refresh on the Enraging Charge, giving you a minimal, if any, benefit from Mantra on Shatter.

Peace,
-CxE

Patrick Smit · Apr 16, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

I'm a bit confused here Blame the monks. I know you show great skill in discussions (and probably also at playing), but RoF does mitigate damage, you throw it on, and the next packet will not likely do any damage, or may even heal quite a bit depending on the packet size. Rof acts befor the packets lands, GoH acts after, thats why i mentioned it as mitigating damage. So a person low on health and chased by a war or any other damage dealer is (IMO, maybe I'm wrong and i will learn then) preferably protted with RoF, which can buy some time to put on a real heal. I prefer to put on real heals for healing and prots for the damage mitigation. It allows me often to buy some precious time. WHat i mean by damage mitigation is the fact that the next packet doesnt land damage, so cant kill the player. RoF can prevent any single damage packet from landing up to 140ish, when this damage is around 70ish healing is optimal. GoH does act after damage has been done (or regardless of any damage at all), and has a slower cast. So if the target is being targetted i prefer to RoF (there are exceptions), while if not chased i would place a heal. I guess we are just experiencing a babylonian situation maybe.

The divine bonus healing of small prots can be ok (32-45 health) but is still rather limited compared to even SoD. Energy efficiency demands u better heal with heals, and prot with prots. Yes I know RoF heals as well, but u are not so much in control how much it will heal. Even more if the target is not a target anymore, then RoF will just dissipate, gaining only DF bonus. So maybe we agree on how to use of RoF but describe its use differently

Feel free to comment on this opinion as that is what it is, im not too old to learn i hope.

To add to the discussion, what would u do if u have choice betwen a heal or Rof if target is followed by conjure warrior and rt support? The heal most likely will perform better due the small packet sizes that limit the effectivity of rof.

yesitsrob · Apr 16, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

I don't like these skills anyway, completely mindless skills that give a warrior more damage. Not against warriors being able to deal good damage though

- Just not by sticking on an enchant every so often, pretty sad.

That short MINDBLAST meta was completely garbage

Blame the Monks · Apr 16, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

I'm a bit confused here Blame the monks. I know you show great skill in discussions

>.<

>So maybe we agree on how to use of RoF but describe its use differently

I think this is it. I think of rof as a quick reaction heal where the healing is based on the damage you take next. I think this way because rof is used to feel out damage, give yourself time to react with other skills, and heal large packet damage skills. I don't consider it a prot because only that one hit is reduced, and as your heal is based on that amount I find it more helpful to think of rof as a conditional heal, not as a prot. IE, in a literal sense, the next hit is negated upt o X but in terms of how it works it is really just a conditional heal. I certainly wouldn't try to use rof to prot up a target unless desperate. I think of rof this way to drive home that "preprotting" with a rof doesn't reduce the damage in any meaningful way, but rather in the right sitations its an efficient heal that also can stop one hit.

But if this doesn't make sense to you or it isn't helpful to you, ignore it.

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Note that I consider dropping 5 good spells on a backline in a 30 second period to be exceptionally generous.

Hmmm, I really wouldn't be expecting the MoR to be totally hammering on the backline though? That's the power of Diversion...it's useful against ANYONE. When your team scores a kill, though, it's nice to be able to chain Diversion on a Monk to push for more kills.

Similarily, I do not see the problem with wanting to use Shatter nearly on recharge if you have the energy ( = the goal). In this very thread people were complaining about a lack of spot removal. Just about every Elem is going to have an Attunement, every Dervish will have Heart of Fury, a decent chunk of Warriors are using Conjure now...you can deny ALL of those abilities and still have Shatter available for a spike a lot of the time (with both Shatter and Drain on the bar).

~Z

Byron · Apr 16, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I think of rof this way to drive home that "preprotting" with a rof doesn't reduce the damage in any meaningful way, but rather in the right sitations its an efficient heal that also can stop one hit.

RoF always felt like damage control, not damage prevention. To be used, ideally, to frustrate DPS pressure (eg, melandru dervish). Very little healing power, imo, but it gets a lot of use because there is not really a bad time to use it in general monk duties.

Ensign · Apr 16, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That's the power of Diversion...it's useful against ANYONE.

Randomly thrown Diversions on random targets is bad. At any particular point in time a team usually has one or two characters that you really want to be pumping Diversions into. I can guarantee you that those characters, in those situations, do a much better job on the whole identifying the Dom Mesmer as the problem than the Mesmer does picking out who they should be Diversioning.

It's useful against anyone in the sense that it actually does something (makes them not use a skill for a few seconds or lose one), but it's not like that actually means a damn thing in a lot of cases. Unless you're able to ninja a skill on a Warrior a Diversion on them is a huge waste of energy. It's similarly dead on characters that are inclined to run a flag. Diversion on Dom Mesmers is pretty bad as well most of the time. If you can't at least place the Diversions on the right targets it isn't worth a slot on your bar - let alone timing it well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Similarily, I do not see the problem with wanting to use Shatter nearly on recharge if you have the energy

15 energy to pull off an enchantment is terrible, only remotely good if you can hit an Attunement just as it goes up. I cannot envision a bar that would be so barren, that the best thing I could do with my energy is Shattering random enchants on recharge under Mantra of Recovery.

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Apr 16, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

If you plan to use MoR with Shatter Enchant + Drain Enchant in order to have more enchant removal, just run Corrupt Enchant as elite and save yourself the trouble and a non-elite skill slot (and with a Dom bar, non elite skill slots are nearly more important than the elite!). Corrupt Enchant is more or less always ready when you want it especially if you fit some fast recharge, it has an ok side effect, and it's very cheap. GoLE isn't actually better than AI anymore as long as you have a 15E spell on your bar so you won't lose much in going /N.

I'd see a bar with Corrupt Enchant and Shatter Enchant to spike (and you can use AI on Shatter Enchant since you rarely use it on recharge) as possibly much smoother to play than one that uses MoR + Shatter + Drain.

MoR is good, but tbh i kinda feel like others said before in GvG. When i play Dom Mesmer, i can't actually use my skills on recharge even WITHOUT MoR, so the extra recharge isn't actually all that interesting. These days i actually usually run with HEV for its hex removal + enchant removal combination that's really good as well as a VERY strong spike skill if they happen to hex your warrior with something (HEV on a spike is like a Shatter Enchant with an extra 20 damage). I think MoR is better in PvE, arenas or even HA where you'll likely have more leeway to do as you wish and where it's more about spamming your stuff and having an impact NOW than tactically using your skills for maximum impact, which is what i feel Mesmer is in GvG. Mesmering in GvG doesn't require much emanagement even though your bar looks quite energy heavy simply because you don't use your stuff on recharge at all most of the time.

Zuranthium · Apr 16, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Randomly thrown Diversions on random targets is bad. At any particular point in time a team usually has one or two characters that you really want to be pumping Diversions into. I can guarantee you that those characters, in those situations, do a much better job on the whole identifying the Dom Mesmer as the problem than the Mesmer does picking out who they should be Diversioning.

15 energy to pull off an enchantment is terrible, only remotely good if you can hit an Attunement just as it goes up. I cannot envision a bar that would be so barren, that the best thing I could do with my energy is Shattering random enchants on recharge under Mantra of Recovery.

I dunno, the times I played MoR Dom I was using:

MoR
P-Drain
Diversion
Shame
Shatter Enchant
Drain Enchant
Draw Condi/Remove Hex
Res Chant/Res Sig

I found it very beneficial to "camp" on a target with Diversion, using it on recharge, and then be actively clicking around and searching for times to use P-Drain or a removal while it recharged. 15 energy for a removal is not good but the skill has flexibility because you can spike with it. The opposing monks just might waste a RoF on the Shatter target as well if things are hectic and all they see is the sudden damage on that target.

That being said, I haven't actually played MoR Dom since the nerf. Diversion camping is perhaps not as effective now, since the person has time to actually do something before the next Diversion hits. Ether Phantom + Drain Delusions for energy denial is another possibility, though.

-------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

These days i actually usually run with HEV for its hex removal + enchant removal combination that's really good as well as a VERY strong spike skill if they happen to hex your warrior with something (HEV on a spike is like a Shatter Enchant with an extra 20 damage).

I'm seeing a ton of hex builds right now so "if they happen to hex your Warrior" is pretty funny to me. In which case, I see SHATTER HEX under MoR as being better:

MoR
P-Drain
Diversion
Shatter Hex
Drain Enchant
Shatter Enchant
Auspicious Incantation
Rez Chant/Signet

If they don't hex up your melees, they obviously are going to get hurt real bad. If they do, they will take 102 damage from the Shatter Hex every 6 seconds.

This is a bit unrelated but since Auspicious Incantation is really nice now I was also thinking about a MoR SMITER along with a Dervish that has Extend Enchantments in order to create a situation where Balth's Aura is up 99% of the time:

Me/Mo:

MoR
P-Drain
Smite Hex
Judge's Insight
Balth's Aura
Auspicious Incantation
Draw Condi
Res Sig/Chant

D/W:

Frenzy
Distracting Blow
Crippling Sweep
Wearying Strike
Extend Enchantments
Conviction
Avatar of Balthazar
Rez Sig

Really nice pain train with those two characters. The Dervish has 33% IAS, 33% speed buff, 20% Armor Penetration, and Balth's Aura on his back...all at the same time and all constantly maintained. He can't really be crippled/blinded (Mesmer draws it right off), he can APPLY crippled and deep wound liberally (weakness from the Wearying Strike also gets drawn right off), trying to hex him is mostly futile (Smite Hex on fast-cast and half-recharge is sitting behind him), and he can't really be spiked either (switches into Conviction stance and has 134 Armor Level). Ohh...and he can interrupt you too.

~Z

Patccmoi · Apr 16, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

MoR
P-Drain
Diversion
Shatter Hex
Drain Enchant
Shatter Enchant
Auspicious Incantation
Rez Chant/Signet

See, personally i don't really like a build like this instead of HEV.

MoR-Shatter Hex on recharge is pretty crazy on your energy. Sure, AI can give you a good amount (still you don't have 25E spell on your bar for really good return) but at best it pays for 1 extra Shatter Hex. Then you have 2 enchant removal, and your bar is actually incredibly weak should you face say NR/Tranq (which isn't actually uncommon). The thing is, this Dom bar is EXTREMELY focused - you can Diversion, handle hexes and handle enchants. Really that's it, with one interrupt once in a while.

On the other hand, if you use HEV for elite, for ONE skill slot you have very good enchant and hex removal. Since most teams using hex also use enchants pretty heavily, you have the extra enchant removal when you need it usually, and it's also a Nearby enchant removal which can strip a bunch of Aegis, etc. So you can just have HEV + Shatter Enchant and all your enchant and hex removal is usually under control (ofc you still need some hex removal on monks). So you can still add Diversion, and then... you have 4 more skill slots to do something else. You can add universal spike skills (EBurn, WD...), you can add PLeak for edenial on casters, you can add Shame for extra monk shutdown, you can add Gale for interrupt/kd/snare, you can add AI-Deep Freeze for emanagement + very nice snaring effect... you can do VARIOUS stuff with the same bar, which is much better than having a bar that's incredibly focused on removing hexes and enchants.

Elite skills are useful often because they combine 2 skills in one, allowing for more varied non-elite skills (which for Dom Mesmer is incredible because of the strength of their non-elites). MoR instead lets you use less skills more often. It's good because of Diversion, AS LONG AS THEY LET YOU USE IT ON RECHARGE (which most good teams just won't, hell if they have 1 ranger you can be sure that a guy with MoR-Diversion is gonna eat a DShot in the face pretty damn soon), but out of that i'd rather have more tactical options available than less.

Zuranthium · Apr 17, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

See, personally i don't really like a build like this instead of HEV.

MoR-Shatter Hex on recharge is pretty crazy on your energy.

It is, but the bar has enough E-management to make it work.

And, no, it's not a great overall bar. It's just META. Soooo many teams that I'm seeing on observer utilize hexes heavily or have dual Fire Elems (Attunements and Mark of Rodgort) + dual Conjure Flames spread out on the Physicals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

It's good because of Diversion, AS LONG AS THEY LET YOU USE IT ON RECHARGE (which most good teams just won't, hell if they have 1 ranger you can be sure that a guy with MoR-Diversion is gonna eat a DShot in the face pretty damn soon), but out of that i'd rather have more tactical options available than less.

True, but chain Aegis helps with that. Maybe Diversion really isn't the best thing for an MoR bar though? Like I said last post, Ether Phantom + Drain Delusions could be amazing. It's basically -4 pips of energy degen on whomever you target, very hard to interrupt, and costs almost nothing.

Also, hehehe, what do you think of the MoR Smiter?

~Z